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Thread: Caning - is it too barbaric?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    Among other topics, the Confucian world view also never considered social mobility. How many of you would still agree that this is appropriate?
    I disagree. SG and many other Eastern countries are heavily influence by Confucianism. You see people with good degree getting better pay than their parent, who may only have primary school/secondary school education. This is social mobility.

    SOCIAL MOBILITY AND CURRICULAR UNIFORMITY UNDER THE CONFUCIAN SYSTEM

    The civil service examination system was an important vehicle of social mobility in imperial China. Even a youth from the poorest family could theoretically join the ranks of the educated elite by succeeding in the examination system. This assurance of success in the examinations dependent only on one’s ability rather than one’s social position helped circulate the key ideas of Confucianism -- concerning proper behavior, rituals, relationships, etc. -- through all levels of Chinese society. The hope of social mobility through success in this system was the motivation for going to school in the first place, whether one was the son of a scholar or a farmer. But even for the farmer’s son who did not do well enough to take the exams even at the lowest level, going to school had the major payoff of working literacy, and this literacy was acquired through mastery of the same basic texts that others who went on to pass the examinations at the highest level also studied. This curricular uniformity had an extremely powerful effect on Chinese society, and the major impetus for this uniformity was the meritocracy promoted by the civil service examination system.
    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/cosmos/irc/classics.htm
    I eats, shoots & leaves

  2. #42
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    I disagree. SG and many other Eastern countries are heavily influence by Confucianism. You see people with good degree getting better pay than their parent, who may only have primary school/secondary school education. This is social mobility.
    http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/cosmos/irc/classics.htm
    Then I had either the wrong information or the system got judged differently by different people.
    So far, i haven't seen any reason for caning brought forward, apart from "they deserve it" or "it was always done this way in the past". Both are rather questionable to me.
    EOS

  3. #43
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    If Caning is too much for some to handle here... then my suggestion of physical castration (total removal) for repented rapist, child molester and especially... pedophiles, may be too dark for some...

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  4. #44

    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Last edited by Yutaka Go; 3rd May 2015 at 01:58 PM.
    I eats, shoots & leaves

  5. #45
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    If Caning is too much for some to handle here... then my suggestion of physical castration (total removal) for repented rapist, child molester and especially... pedophiles, may be too dark for some...
    Appointing female castrators may ease their pain a bit.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    Appointing female castrators may ease their pain a bit.

    Whatever.... Just felt that such people deserved no pity... especially the last type that aim for children.

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  7. #47

    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewalk View Post
    I think you just repeated the point i have responded to. This is dangerous because if this is the thinking basically we can implement ANY law and say that "oh you won't suffer that if you don't do wrong". The mere existence of a law that sentences a thief to have his hands cut off isn't exactly a civilised thing right?

    The fact that a person deserves consequence for wrongdoings does not mean he deserves anything done to him. And to say that he deserve it because "you know then you still do" is something some elders like to serve the younger generation with and then we continue to propagate this logic.
    Law and punishment serve as deterants. However if one insist on breaking the law then one must faces the consequences. There is always differences in viewing the seriouness of an offence. Differences in religion are culture the two main decisive factors.
    What is best for a country, you decide.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by nitewalk View Post

    So if it is stated in the law that a thief will have his hands cut off, and everyone knows the punishment, the criminals get the punishment, it is not against human rights and is acceptable to you? I'm trying to follow your logic.

    Whether the punishment is a "surprise" does not have to do with civility of punishment. I think it is quite a given that the punishment shouldn't and wouldn't be a surprise. Otherwise, we would be debating on the fundamental need for law and constitution, if indeed the punishment dished out is a "surprise". I don't think it even requires a discussion whether it being a surprise or not leads to whether it is a civilised law.

    You see, the fundamental premise of your argument lies with the parenting tactics which aims to deter than to educate. If indeed, the consequence of doing something wrong at home, is to be caned, i have difficulty seeing how it is a logical consequence. Then if the child does not see the consequence of his actions beyond being caned into obedience, simply you are just complying and not making a moral decision that what is done is wrong. The child would not see why his action may have an adverse consequence for others or that it is morally wrong. I wonder how many parents would actually use reasoning to explain to the child his or her wrongdoings.

    The aim of corrective philosophy towards punishment in law, aims to help criminals, some of which may not have the skills to secure a job, even if given a second chance. Imagine being jailed for 10 years. 10 years ago how was singapore like, what has changed, how many new jobs were created? And if they knew they would be caned and still do it, what then is the problem?
    If u ask for my honest opinion about cutting hands off, I can tell u that I agree to it.

    Cannot fathom my agreement? Its the same logic applying to any other capital punishment. Why would you want to steal?

    Besides granting excuses for mentally challenged cases and other forced disadvantage situations, no one should be stealing.

    Would you want to have a family member be stealing things?

    Talk abt human rights. If one steal from another, isn't the thieve taking away the human rights; the right of lawful ownership, from the victim?

    So who is abusing human rights here? The thieve is not depriving the victim of something rightfully his?

    Correctional measures and programs comes later. Our SG prison system has very good correctional programs. But that will not be used to take away capital punishment. U get the cane, and then go for correctional programs.

    If you don't hang the cane on the wall, I can tell u ppl will get bolder to challenge the law

    See what is happening to our MOE system now. No longer corporal punishment in schools, and our kids are challenging our teachers every day. The teacher and principal get no respect from students.

    I'm very sure you have friends in MOE schools. Hear their stories.

    When these kids grow up, and if we don't have capital punishment, they will do what they used to do in schools, that is to challenge the law.

  9. #49
    Senior Member UncleFai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?


  10. #50
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    If you don't hang the cane on the wall, I can tell u ppl will get bolder to challenge the law
    See what is happening to our MOE system now. No longer corporal punishment in schools, and our kids are challenging our teachers every day. The teacher and principal get no respect from students.
    I'm very sure you have friends in MOE schools. Hear their stories.
    When these kids grow up, and if we don't have capital punishment, they will do what they used to do in schools, that is to challenge the law.
    Overly simplifying a problem has never helped to solve it.
    So according your logic all current parents should have been brought up properly and with utmost respect the school and the teachers. Well, do ask your friends in MOM how parents behave if they disagree with decisions of teachers (e.g. class paper or exam results) or the school. (If you don't have such friends, the local newspaper are full of these stories, especially around exam periods.) And secondly, do think twice which influence is stronger: the cane somewhere at the wall or the daily example given by parents.
    EOS

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    Overly simplifying a problem has never helped to solve it.
    So according your logic all current parents should have been brought up properly and with utmost respect the school and the teachers. Well, do ask your friends in MOM how parents behave if they disagree with decisions of teachers (e.g. class paper or exam results) or the school. (If you don't have such friends, the local newspaper are full of these stories, especially around exam periods.) And secondly, do think twice which influence is stronger: the cane somewhere at the wall or the daily example given by parents.
    Sure I do agree abt our most unreasonable parents. Everything adds up. We live in a ecosystem. Everything has a cause and effect on other things.

    Its an example of ppl getting bolder if there is nothing to deter them. And not to OT, we are talking abt criminals or potential ones, and keeping our crime rates low.

    If not for our tough laws, we wouldn't have much respect from the world. Interpol even set up its HQ here. This speaks a lot about our system.

    So my point is: hang the cane and the rope on the wall. Its up to anyone to decide whether they wan to do the crime or not. Its still very much of individual freedom. Our system didn't force anyone to do a crime, right?

    U know the old tale; hang a dead monkey on the tree to scare the rest.
    Last edited by donut88; 4th May 2015 at 06:31 PM.

  12. #52
    Member Bukitimah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    If one commits a crime and there is laws to.protect his rights. Who protect the victim and their love ones? Remember, the victim did not chose this but the criminal did.

    Canning is so objectional because it is effective In some way. So don't do it if you are not ready for it.

  13. #53
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    If one commits a crime and there is laws to.protect his rights. Who protect the victim and their love ones? Remember, the victim did not chose this but the criminal did.
    I disagree. Drug (ab)users have a chance not to start, always. Once they have become addicted, they still have that chance to stop. Although it's more difficult then.
    Last edited by Octarine; 5th May 2015 at 09:09 AM.
    EOS

  14. #54

    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    No crime... no need law

    Idea situation...

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    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    No crime... no need law

    Idea situation...
    We need law to prevent crimes.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    I disagree. Drug (ab)users have a chance not to start, always. Once they have become addicted, they still have that chance to stop. Although it's more difficult then.

    Nobody is stopping them from starting a new life. BUT they must pay for it first so that others planning to go the same path knows it is painful. If they can get away so easily, we will be flooded with adicts and social ills. Why must society be punished for these people?

  17. #57
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yappy View Post
    No crime... no need law
    Idea situation...
    Even the earliest groups of our ancestors when climbing down from the trees had simple forms of social norms, which can be loosely named as 'simple laws'. Rules and wrongdoing develop together, with the laws always being one step behind. Laws describe what is permitted and what not. How to define what is a crime without law?
    EOS

  18. #58

    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    ...
    With crimes.. come law

    No choice!

  19. #59
    Senior Member Nikonzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Caning - is it too barbaric?

    On the lips of him who has understanding wisdom is found, but a rod is for the back of him who lacks sense. Proverbs.

    As for America...over here teachers cannot paddle unruly students anymore (and haven't been able to for a long time now)...you do not whip off your belt and spank your child anymore for fear of someone screaming child abuse...you don't spank them for fear of them going to school and telling someone in authority who then sicks the Department of Human Services on you for child abuse. The penal system is now corporate owned and has a revolving door policy so they can make money. War on drugs same game. Death row is a couple decades waiting while the system collects money. Big Pharma has half the country hooked on opiates while the DEA is playing whack a mole with the addicts. People now wonder what the heck is wrong with our youth and our younger generations...political correctness will be the end of us all. With that being said I think I am beginning to see some significant backlash against this PC BS in my country. This is good because what America needs is some order gosh darn it.

    Take away your 'cane' and you bros will eventually rue the day you did imo.


    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post

    See what is happening to our MOE system now. No longer corporal punishment in schools, and our kids are challenging our teachers every day. The teacher and principal get no respect from students.

    I'm very sure you have friends in MOE schools. Hear their stories.

    When these kids grow up, and if we don't have capital punishment, they will do what they used to do in schools, that is to challenge the law.
    This is the most disturbing thing I have read about Singapore yet.
    Last edited by Nikonzen; 11th May 2015 at 06:27 PM.
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