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Thread: Two persons charged with sedition

  1. #21
    Senior Member felixcat8888's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowcrash
    In singapore context, race and religion can be closely-linked.

    Just read today straits times on the case. Seems like certain Islamic school of thought doens't allow Muslims to touch dogs which are wet, which include dog's saliva.

    And most of my Muslims friends are Malays.

    Just curios, have any one of you met or have malay friends who are non-muslims?
    I too know of malays but they are not muslims. It does not mean that you are malay so you are muslim.

    Cheers.....

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    I have many non-muslims friends who had muslim names...
    Yep, I also have some ancestors (chinese) who were muslims too........(some even were Haj, they went to Mecca).

    I came across many instances where people have prejudices about the other group, forgetting that we are all human. Some, even say some group of people are smelly, but they forget that chinese themselves are smelly too!!! :-)

    There is a base of some racism, malays have names for indians and chinese, the indians have names for malays and chinese, the chinese have names for indians and malays...........I guess we can't get rid of it all. I believe this is because of peoples tendency of wanting to belong to a group....and their ego telling them they are better than the other, without looking at themselves first.

    Hong Sien
    Last edited by hongsien; 13th September 2005 at 03:57 PM.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    I personally think removing the blog is wrong. Why? Because as far as I understand it, the blog had some heated discussions. This is good to show those who had wrong ideas to see other opinions and there is a chance that they will relook their own prejudices. By just closing the blog, these people won't have to see other opinions, and therefore they will likely just keep thinking the old (wrong) way.........

    HS

  4. #24

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    I am sorry but Muslim is not a race. This is a normal perception from most ppl which is wrong.
    Paiseh, I know the difference, but should have been more careful with my wording.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Anyway, going back to the issue about sendition, if you read the article link I had highlighted earlier, the Rodney King riots started as an altercation between blacks and whites, and spread down to the Korean community which had nothing to do with the original incident. Ethnic strife is not to be taken lightly. Very tragic...

  6. #26

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    events like this tells me that we are still very far from achieving racial harmony. make me wonder if my colleague sitting next to me is just putting on an act being good in front of me or ....

    when i read abt this incident, my first reaction was hoping that these 2 wld be put in a same cell together with whichever race they made the racist attack on.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowcrash
    In singapore context, race and religion can be closely-linked.

    Just read today straits times on the case. Seems like certain Islamic school of thought doens't allow Muslims to touch dogs which are wet, which include dog's saliva.

    And most of my Muslims friends are Malays.

    Just curios, have any one of you met or have malay friends who are non-muslims?
    There is a very good health reason for that I guess, some free living dogs may carry diseases........

    HS

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by AixisOfJustice
    events like this tells me that we are still very far from achieving racial harmony. make me wonder if my colleague sitting next to me is just putting on an act being good in front of me or ....

    when i read abt this incident, my first reaction was hoping that these 2 wld be put in a same cell together with whichever race they made the racist attack on.
    The thing is that a whole group gets labelled/prejudiced because of the behaviour of a few..........and since it is 'another' group it is so easy to make bad remarks............

    Do you know what they call Clubsnappers outthere????

    HS

  9. #29

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien

    Do you know what they call Clubsnappers outthere????

    HS
    wat they call?
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by melnjes
    Anyway, going back to the issue about sendition, if you read the article link I had highlighted earlier, the Rodney King riots started as an altercation between blacks and whites, and spread down to the Korean community which had nothing to do with the original incident. Ethnic strife is not to be taken lightly. Very tragic...
    C vs N ?... j/k.







    What happened to Korean community?

    From your link.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney King riots erupt in Los Angeles
    Writing about the riot in a 1992 essay "Learning to Talk of Race," philosopher Cornel West suggested "what we witnessed in Los Angeles was the consequence of a lethal linkage of economic decline, cultural decay, and political lethargy in American life. Race was the visible catalyst, not the underlying cause."
    ...
    Sg's example of The Hock Lee Bus Riots (12 May 1955) was also started from an "economic" perspective.
    Last edited by CYRN; 13th September 2005 at 08:39 PM.
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien
    The thing is that a whole group gets labelled/prejudiced because of the behaviour of a few..........and since it is 'another' group it is so easy to make bad remarks............

    Do you know what they call Clubsnappers outthere????

    HS
    that's true what u said. it's so tragic & sad. just look at the muslims. just bcos of a few, all muslims are labelled as terrorists. may not be here but certainly in the western countries.

    anyways, what do they call CSers out there?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Regardless of muslim or non muslim,

    wut iz tis? freedome of speech?... and wut PM Lee say sg lack of creativity and originality, where would all this be without even the basic of freedome of speech?...

  13. #33

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by hongsien
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowcrash
    In singapore context, race and religion can be closely-linked.

    Just read today straits times on the case. Seems like certain Islamic school of thought doens't allow Muslims to touch dogs which are wet, which include dog's saliva.

    And most of my Muslims friends are Malays.

    Just curios, have any one of you met or have malay friends who are non-muslims?
    There is a very good health reason for that I guess, some free living dogs may carry diseases........

    HS
    It's not actually about health reasons. In fact, there are Muslims who keep dogs. But they have to follow certain rules when handling dogs. See this for some clarification http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp.

    Quote Originally Posted by RossChang
    Regardless of muslim or non muslim,
    wut iz tis? freedome of speech?... and wut PM Lee say sg lack of creativity and originality, where would all this be without even the basic of freedome of speech?...
    Well, what's your definition of 'Freedom of Speech'? I quote from wikipedia.org:

    'The right to freedom of expression is not considered unlimited; governments may still prohibit certain damaging types of expressions. Under international law, restrictions on free speech are required to comport with a strict three part test: they must be provided by law; pursue an aim recognized as legitimate; and they must be necessary (i.e., proportionate) for the accomplishment of that aim. Amongst the aims considered legitimate are protection of the rights and reputations of others (prevention of defamation), and the protection of national security and public order, health and morals.'

    My personal simplified definition is to be able to express one's thoughts so that improvement can be brought upon the general community and environment without harming any living things. For example, you should be allowed to make some noise when a transport company wants to raise fares for the sake of increasing its profit margin. There may be better examples than this.

    Has anyone ever wondered why is there racial discrimination and prejudice in society? Is it because of lack of understanding in other cultures and races which leads to fear and hostility? Have you noticed that we even have discrimination and prejudice within the same racial community? (E.g. Some people feel that Weilian should not be the 'Superstar' winner because he is blind).

    Maybe it all boils down to our own self-centred nature.
    Last edited by Newman; 14th September 2005 at 03:56 AM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by huaiwei
    If "opening up" includes the tolerance of racist comments, then I would rather we remain closed till eternity. Heck, it is illegal to be racist in nearby Australia, and you can be charged not just for racist comments. Would that be considered draconian?
    Quote Originally Posted by huaiwei
    I dont see how this episode should suddenly cause anyone to think twice before he types. I mean...since when is the internet free from surveilance and the rule of law? If people think they can do anything in blogs and get away with it, they only have themselves to blame for being this naive. And do any of you honestly think writing in a forum like this is not going to have any legal effect at all?
    I'm talking about internet laws.
    We're one of the only countries to have had people get into legal trouble over something written on a blog or a forum (which puts us somewhere along the lines of china and iran.)
    the stupid reason given all the time for harsh action is that "we'll go back to 30 years ago, racial riots."
    I'm sorry but if you think that people nowadays are so stupid that one idiotic youth writing a meaningless piece of garbage is going to bring us back to an era of violence, then there is something seriously wrong with singaporeans.

    How is bringing someone to court and instilling fear in people to voice their true opinions about things no matter how hateful going to progress our understanding of each other?
    It doesn't solve any problems. Hell, at least I don't want to hear some bull from our ministers about how singapore is opening up, when at the same time things like these happen.

    huaiwei, I'm sorry for your type of thinking. If people are afraid to voice out their thoughts then their thoughts will just fester and become distorted. I rather we thrash things out and build a better understanding and compromise in each other.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by laugh
    freedom to racism is not opening up.. its closing down, closing down of the society.
    so I guess all the singaporeans cursing ang mohs for stealing their jobs should be brought the court too.
    How about china people? let's talk about how much many of us like to make fun of china people.
    how about indian and bangladesh workers? let's talk about how some of us have certain degarding nicknames for them.
    Racism is rampant in singapore. making people keep it under wraps is just a superficial way of dealing with the situation.

  16. #36
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    Default Two persons charged with sedition

    Gentlemen/Ladies,

    A gentle reminder please.

    You are welcome to state your views but understand that you are of course, held responsible for them.

    Thank you.
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    I'm talking about internet laws.
    We're one of the only countries to have had people get into legal trouble over something written on a blog or a forum (which puts us somewhere along the lines of china and iran.)
    the stupid reason given all the time for harsh action is that "we'll go back to 30 years ago, racial riots."
    I'm sorry but if you think that people nowadays are so stupid that one idiotic youth writing a meaningless piece of garbage is going to bring us back to an era of violence, then there is something seriously wrong with singaporeans.

    How is bringing someone to court and instilling fear in people to voice their true opinions about things no matter how hateful going to progress our understanding of each other?
    It doesn't solve any problems. Hell, at least I don't want to hear some bull from our ministers about how singapore is opening up, when at the same time things like these happen.

    huaiwei, I'm sorry for your type of thinking. If people are afraid to voice out their thoughts then their thoughts will just fester and become distorted. I rather we thrash things out and build a better understanding and compromise in each other.
    Dear Matt,

    As much as i respect your views and agree that you are allow to think the way you do, i honestly do not think this is the place for your to vent such frustrations. After all, not much can be done using this forum as a platform.

    In fact, should you be genuinely interested in bringing the truth to light and fight for justice and equality, why don't you write to the forum section of our local broadsheet, clamour for changes and bring these issues to bear?

    As for your ideas that no one will get incited to do anything at all simply because it was "one idiotic youth writing a meaningless piece of garbage is going to bring us back to an era of violence...". Maybe you do not understand the implications nor it's reprecussion.

    Think long term. Think that if one person is allowed to get away with it, then someone will will try. And if he is caught, he would most likely to say? "Somebody did it as well..." If no precedent is set, then slowly, bit by bit, the youth or anoyone else for that matter will slowly think that such behavior is acceptable and where do you go from there?

    Be really honest. Had the tirade been directed against the chinese or a chinese dialect group by someone from another race or religion, then i can safely say that there will be people up in arms and getting really worked up. And what would happen then?

    You are allowed to voice your thoughts. Everyone is welcome to do so. May it be here or in the Forum pages. The only difference is that the Forum pages require you to be accountable and they do ask for your NRIC. Here, there are no such rules. Therefore, it is a timely reminder that one needs to be responsible for what he or she is saying.

    That being said, I would like to once again stress, that should this thread go south, this thread will be saved and closed.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Wolfgang; 14th September 2005 at 08:30 AM.
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    The way to deal with racial hatred is not to outlaw such expression, rather, society, people around them, people like us, must not only condem such expressions, but make it know to these people such expression will not be tolerated.

    What is happenning here is, the two who got charged are scape goats. The government, and even the population, will point to these two misguided ones and claim that Singapore is an open society with racial harmony, "see how harsh and swift we deal with racist?" But, once out of the spot light, racial harmony is still a distance target at best here. Just look around you. They way we treat some of the foreign workers, should make you feel ashame.
    Last edited by Deadpoet; 14th September 2005 at 10:05 AM.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    The way to deal with racial hatred is not to outlaw such expression, rather, society, people around them, people like us, must not only condem such expressions, but make it know to these people such expression will not be tolerated.

    What is happenning here is, the two who got charged are scape goats. The government, and even the population, will point to these two misguided ones and claim that Singapore is an open society with racial harmony, "see how harsh and swift we deal with racist?" But, once out of the spot light, racial harmony is still a distance target at best here. Just look around you. They way we treat some of the foreign workers, should make you feel ashame.
    Yes, but just making them know it is not tolerated is not enough, we have the duty to EXPLAIN to them WHY their thinking is wrong............if not, just shutting them down, will only create more anger and frustrations. It is not solving the problem: wrong thinking by these people..........

    Sounds like the propaganda war in communist countries :-)

    HS

  20. #40

    Default Re: Two persons charged with sedition

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang
    In fact, should you be genuinely interested in bringing the truth to light and fight for justice and equality, why don't you write to the forum section of our local broadsheet, clamour for changes and bring these issues to bear?

    As for your ideas that no one will get incited to do anything at all simply because it was "one idiotic youth writing a meaningless piece of garbage is going to bring us back to an era of violence...". Maybe you do not understand the implications nor it's reprecussion.

    Think long term. Think that if one person is allowed to get away with it, then someone will will try. And if he is caught, he would most likely to say? "Somebody did it as well..." If no precedent is set, then slowly, bit by bit, the youth or anoyone else for that matter will slowly think that such behavior is acceptable and where do you go from there?

    Be really honest. Had the tirade been directed against the chinese or a chinese dialect group by someone from another race or religion, then i can safely say that there will be people up in arms and getting really worked up. And what would happen then?
    it's common misconception that going through the forum pages is the proper channel.
    There are a number of us who are working to bring about change not through the "Government sanctioned methods" of forum pages and politics. If the Forum was run by an editor who was actually trained in journalism and not as a government intelligence agent, then yes I may take it seriously.

    a friend of mine just worked on a theater workshop with foreign workers. we also met with some NGOs, one which was set up with someone's own money wihtout government assistance to help foreign workers.
    also, as a photographer, I have my power to touch on issues I feel are important to me using a graphic medium. maybe you have heard it being said by MPs so many times that one should either go through "forum pages, speaker's corner or join politics" to make any changes, but this is not what I've learnt from people in other countries.

    you're wrong, I understand the implications. it's been used countless times as a warning for us to deal with racial and religious topics sensitively. The issue that is worrying here is the precedent of someone being sued for using the internet as a medium. Beforehand I had gotten the feeling that when someone says something stupid, the internet community has a way of being self critical about what they feel is wrong and voice their comments accordingly. I think from numerous discussions in Clubsnap Kopitiam we can see that there are people who can think logically and calmly and discuss issues, rather than start cursing and swearing straight away. Isn't this some sort of progress?
    now the law is stepping in harshly into the internet domain? it's a step backwards because now people will be less keen on voicing their opinions, less debate will ensue too.

    Where does one draw the line at what is "seditious"? Can I now voice my opinions on any racial, political or religious in my own blog? or should I just stick to talking about girls and my latest gadgets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    "The way to deal with racial hatred is not to outlaw such expression, rather, society, people around them, people like us, must not only condem such expressions, but make it know to these people such expression will not be tolerated."
    I absolutely agree with what deadpoet said.
    if people think such racist behavior is acceptable, then the problem lies in the fact that people actually harbour these racist thoughts, rather than the fact that they're writing angry racist blogs. Instilling fear is just going to bottle up these expressions. take away the internet as a medium and people are going to find another medium.

    I think that having such discussions is also useful as it fuels my own thoughts that translate to my photography work.

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