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Thread: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

  1. #41

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    Lots, one person bench press with 2 helpers doing upright rows - using with the same bar simulantenously, 3 person teamwork on the same farking rep. And bar only goes down 3 inches, barely a quarter of the range of motion. All shirtless and screaming and grunting. Since history.
    Then they tell ppl he can lift that weight
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  2. #42
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by alfie View Post
    I just came back from a cruise and I tell you, these photos sell like hot cakes. After dinner, lots of passengers go down photo shopping..

    They are priced USD20-30 per photo, but you can buy a cabin package.. USD399.. you get every photo taken of you and your family (within the cabin) including a digital copy ! (If you buy only one photo, no digital). Some will say, its a rip off.. but consider this, there's around 20+ photographers on the boat, there's photographers on the deck, on the beach, at the pool, at your dinner table, etc. Its like hiring a professional photographer (They shoot quite well)

    Of course you can spend your whole holiday shooting photos of your family yourself, risking your iphone at the beach, and at the end of the day... get no photos of yourself and not enjoying your holiday :P

    And yes, they don't force you to buy the photos, if anything they dun even push it to you (like how some attractions do...) the photoshop is on the lowest floor, very hidden.. And if you really wanna shoot your own photos - they sell nikon/canons dslr, point and shoots.. and the Leica M9 + 50cron too...

    [I shot lots of photos of my family on the trip myself, and did buy the family portrait shot at the dinner table still]
    Quote Originally Posted by alfie View Post
    Yeah, huge team. I was on a royal carribean boat. They actually produce a customized cruise video, sold on a DVD at the end of the cruise. They got around 2-3 video camera crew that film all the event.. Its great when you got kids who are always joining the events.
    I guess it must be Royal Carribean,
    so you can see, they provide their guests the experience which no others can offer, and at the same time they also upselling by providing the value added services to their guests.

    anyway, if anyone interested to do this, can look out cruise ship website to look out for opportunity.
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  3. #43
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikonzen View Post
    In many cases those folks are working as a big team too. They are wired and wifi'd to central lab for processing and then the results are presented for view and sales. Some of them enjoy quite a bit of latitude with their style. Others have to hack. I met a Russian chick on a cruise ship once that did this for a gig she was interesting to talk to...I'll try and dig out a photo I made of her.
    if you are a photographer, do you think want to do this as a career?
    how long can you stay in this?

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  4. #44

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    I find it difficult to make people realise... but I also realise people don't want to know.

    Just let them be lar... if they care, they have enough materials in Photo Biz for them to read about. It is easier to help when they hit the walls.

    Just my thought...

    Hart

  5. #45
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    I find it difficult to make people realise... but I also realise people don't want to know.

    Just let them be lar... if they care, they have enough materials in Photo Biz for them to read about. It is easier to help when they hit the walls.

    Just my thought...

    Hart

    Agreed.

    those who take this as a career, whether listen now or not, they will find the way eventually.

    those who just touch and go, they won't be interested, how good you teach also no use.

    those who just want to stir sh1t, they go anyway also stir sh1t, that is their nature.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post

    those who take this as a career, whether listen now or not, they will find the way eventually.

    those who just touch and go, they won't be interested, how good you teach also no use.

    those who just want to stir sh1t, they go anyway also stir sh1t, that is their nature.
    Mater of Wisdom, let them find the path to "profitable" photography and happiness and see The Light.
    Last edited by Sion; 5th April 2015 at 09:37 AM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    i heard about this 15 years back, it is what you would call a crash practical training course.... you will eat, ****, dream about shooting for 80% of the day. It most probably is not for every one but if you go thru this you will have probably gained 8 years of practical shooting experience for every year you work there. The catch here is what they really want are people who are around 18-28 years old. If your team leader is the mentoring type you could pick up a lot by working for them. But if you are a hobbist who want to go play a bit and enjoy a cruise this will be an "interesting" trip.
    Last edited by ellery; 5th April 2015 at 02:16 PM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Iam not sure how does those old timers photographers started out especially during the film era.
    but then in every competition there are always some who offer dirt cheap rates so how are u going to market yourself to justify the higher premium is very important. if u can't convince yourself on this,u are not going to convince your clients.
    and now back to cheap photographers,for this I would have to think that they are the ones who are probably just trying out as a freelance or part-time income and they lack of experience comparing to those old timers therefore they charge cheaper prices. when they have build up their portfolios or think that the long hours are not worth that small money,they will naturally give up or increase their rates. for sure there will always be new comers coming in to stay or just hit and run,but how can these new comers with cheaper rates put in the same league as old timers photographers?
    afterall they may be providing photography services but they are not in the same standard, it is just like u are paying for what u get.
    at the end of the day,the customers should be rational enough to gauge price and quality. chepest doesn't mean u will have more business.
    in this digital era where anybody can own a camera makes it important for photographers to price their service reasonably to stay competitive unlike the film era where probably photographers can carrot customers.

  9. #49
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbonetics View Post
    Iam not sure how does those old timers photographers started out especially during the film era.
    but then in every competition there are always some who offer dirt cheap rates so how are u going to market yourself to justify the higher premium is very important. if u can't convince yourself on this,u are not going to convince your clients.
    and now back to cheap photographers,for this I would have to think that they are the ones who are probably just trying out as a freelance or part-time income and they lack of experience comparing to those old timers therefore they charge cheaper prices. when they have build up their portfolios or think that the long hours are not worth that small money,they will naturally give up or increase their rates. for sure there will always be new comers coming in to stay or just hit and run,but how can these new comers with cheaper rates put in the same league as old timers photographers?
    afterall they may be providing photography services but they are not in the same standard, it is just like u are paying for what u get.
    at the end of the day,the customers should be rational enough to gauge price and quality. chepest doesn't mean u will have more business.
    in this digital era where anybody can own a camera makes it important for photographers to price their service reasonably to stay competitive unlike the film era where probably photographers can carrot customers.

    have you seen those old Chinese sword fighting movies?
    the heroes always find a good master, learn of the very basic forms, go through all the hardship of trainings for many years, until a day his master think he is capable to 行走江湖.
    the old timers are also doing about the same, learn of the very basic theories, keep practise and practise, find a good mentor, follow the master's teachings to bring their skills to next level before go on his own.

    nowadays are so much different, you can watch some youtube tutorials, maybe buy some dvd at most, than print name card, set up a new website, facebook page, linkedin google plus etc, find some guinea pigs and start portfolio building,
    the most important is to buy a set awesome tok kong no horse run flagship pro camera and lenses, all these can be done within a couple of months, instant professional photographer, sweet right? who still need to go though the old school way of training?


    so do you realize that nowadays there are far more photographers than the jobs available? that also explains why the pricing keep driven downward.
    don't believe, don't have to go too far, just take a look at our Market Places, how many Photography Service offer threads there and how many Service wanted thread posted?
    (btw, those threads seeking for free services and didn't state a clear budget are all deleted.)
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  10. #50
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by ellery View Post
    i heard about this 15 years back, it is what you would call a crash practical training course.... you will eat, ****, dream about shooting for 80% of the day. It most probably is not for every one but if you go thru this you will have probably gained 8 years of practical shooting experience for every year you work there. The catch here is what they really want are people who are around 18-28 years old. If your team leader is the mentoring type you could pick up a lot by working for them. But if you are a hobbist who want to go play a bit and enjoy a cruise this will be an "interesting" trip.
    you are referring to cruise ship on board photographers right?
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  11. #51
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    Default

    https://fstoppers.com/business/hard-...ographer-66349

    The best article on this topic I've read in awhile..

    "What Are you known for..?"

  12. #52
    Senior Member Nikonzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post

    so do you realize that nowadays there are far more photographers than the jobs available? that also explains why the pricing keep driven downward.
    don't believe, don't have to go too far, just take a look at our Market Places, how many Photography Service offer threads there and how many Service wanted thread posted?
    (btw, those threads seeking for free services and didn't state a clear budget are all deleted.)
    While I do not entirely disagree with what you say...in fact it is basically spot on probably...if I were looking for photography services on this board I wouldn't look at those ads (in fact I would avoid them like the plague unless I was referred to a particular one)...instead bros like you would be getting PM's...but this is just me and I am just saying...

    I admire the pros of the old old film days (pre auto). Those cats were studs in my books. I have walked around with a fully mech camera with film and no meter...a lot...and to be on the level of a pro (which I never was)??? I bet those guys charged dang near whatever price they wanted...well, if they were great at what they did at least.
    Last edited by Nikonzen; 7th April 2015 at 08:57 AM.
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  13. #53
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by saberlancer View Post
    https://fstoppers.com/business/hard-...ographer-66349

    The best article on this topic I've read in awhile..

    "What Are you known for..?"
    that can be apply to any business...

    if ones don't want to spend money, he/she will just find the any cheapest one available, using it like any other disposable utensil, throw after used.
    when ones want to pamper himself / herself, he/she will look for something unique, price is no longer main concern.
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  14. #54
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikonzen View Post
    While I do not entirely disagree with what you say...in fact it is basically spot on probably...if I were looking for photography services on this board I wouldn't look at those ads (in fact I would avoid them like the plague unless I was referred to a particular one)...instead bros like you would be getting PM's...but this is just me and I am just saying...

    I admire the pros of the old old film days (pre auto). Those cats were studs in my books. I have walked around with a fully mech camera with film and no meter...a lot...and to be on the level of a pro (which I never was)??? I bet those guys charged dang near whatever price they wanted...well, if they were great at what they did at least.
    look around the people you know, how many of them ever hire photographers?
    if yes, how often?



    Let say we take portrait business as an example.
    if a photographers need about 250 assignments a year to sustain in business. (provided he able to make 30% gross profit from each assignment)
    so when average families hire photographers once every 5 years,
    question: how many return customers you need have to stay in business?
    http://www.camfoundation.com/PDF/Cos...-retention.pdf
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  15. #55
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    I'm not sure anyone notice this trends, selling (offering) your photography skills to clients/customers is no longer profitable for most photographers, especially for those have not established their business.
    selling ___________________(fill in this blank with whatever thing) to photographers (especially to wannabe photographers) is the most lucrative photography business nowadays.


    because everyone like to be a photographers, but when everyone is a photographer..............


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  16. #56

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    I'm not sure anyone notice this trends, selling (offering) your photography skills to clients/customers is no longer profitable for most photographers, especially for those have not established their business.
    selling ___________________(fill in this blank with whatever thing) to photographers (especially to wannabe photographers) is the most lucrative photography business nowadays.
    remind me of this phrase, in a gold rush, dun be the one digging the gold, be the one selling the shovel..

  17. #57

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Already filled with 'photographers-teachers' selling workshops to 'photographers-wannabes'. Irony is that both of these individuals are not real photographers.

    A significant number of these 'photographer-teachers' had no real work experience as professional photographers, they bluff their way through, some stole portfolio, some blatantly steal the whole workshop and years of hard work from real photographers. For this scumbag thief who stole from a videographer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPvDoPwKFBA (how to embed? Help?)

    Or you can sell gear to photographers-wannabes, its a booming business. Some guy had been doing it successfully for years selling to professional-wannabes expensive tupperware that look like toilets ontop of flashguns.
    Last edited by JasonB; 7th April 2015 at 05:07 PM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikonzen View Post
    if I were looking for photography services on this board I wouldn't look at those ads (in fact I would avoid them like the plague unless I was referred to a particular one)
    Exactly. And my advice to any pros reading is that, if you already passed that stage, take off your advertisement here. You shouldn't be sourcing for business on a hobby forum. Clubsnap is a place for photography discussion, gear, technique and sharing. Not business advertisments. In fact it hurts your branding (no offense to clubsnap of course). I know some wedding guys do it, it might work for a couple, but I don't recommend it, makes you look amatuer.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    have you seen those old Chinese sword fighting movies?
    the heroes always find a good master, learn of the very basic forms, go through all the hardship of trainings for many years, until a day his master think he is capable to 行走江湖.
    the old timers are also doing about the same, learn of the very basic theories, keep practise and practise, find a good mentor, follow the master's teachings to bring their skills to next level before go on his own.

    nowadays are so much different, you can watch some youtube tutorials, maybe buy some dvd at most, than print name card, set up a new website, facebook page, linkedin google plus etc, find some guinea pigs and start portfolio building,
    the most important is to buy a set awesome tok kong no horse run flagship pro camera and lenses, all these can be done within a couple of months, instant professional photographer, sweet right? who still need to go though the old school way of training?


    so do you realize that nowadays there are far more photographers than the jobs available? that also explains why the pricing keep driven downward.
    don't believe, don't have to go too far, just take a look at our Market Places, how many Photography Service offer threads there and how many Service wanted thread posted?
    (btw, those threads seeking for free services and didn't state a clear budget are all deleted.)

    yes I understand what u mean and agree with u.
    internet are really powerful tools.I told my pri 2 kid that anything u are not sure use Google,last time where got such thing?

  20. #60
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dear Cheap but good photographer: you are ruining my life and this industry

    This is what I learn from my short stay here in this earth... All career and business always have competition or competitors so what you need to do to differentiate yourself from others is the way to go. Good example why Leica is surviving with it ridiculous camera gears prices? what they differ from the likes of Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji Olympus and others?

    As a photographer or whatever career or business you have you must rethink your brand or image or products how can it be different from the rest how can it be better from the rest..

    If you stop innovating and start complaining that is the start of your free fall.
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