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Thread: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's company)

  1. #61
    Moderator ed9119's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
    I have spent a lot of time in China and other countries. They love SG. Safe, clean, and minimal corruption compared to their countries. A place where people can work hard and get their wage fairly and a chance to have a decent living. It's like us going to Australia, work reasonably hard and they get rewarded for their sweat and toil. Now compare that to Singaporeans, who want a 'work life balance' - a euphemism for working less and getting paid more. Our productivity is far below Germany, less than China, and yet we complain when we are replaced. We do deserve a good standard of living, but it means that we need to work smart and work hard, then go home and rest or play hard. There's no free lunch. When we keep asking for more wages, and the whole cycle of expensive wages, rentals, food, and transport will only get worse. Unless we keep things affordable, keep things efficient and we are competitive on the global front. Otherwise we will be eaten alive in the world. And it's not the fault of the 'foreign talent'.. it's easy to blame others, but we should start at home, then see how we can help ourselves. My 2c worth.
    Well said !!
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  2. #62

    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by cirenaiht View Post
    I'm in creative industry, doing publication design and photography.
    I'm not the done doing interview so I can't tell much about CV. This is a small company and part of my duty is too guide those newcomers…They were mostly fresh grads, starting point is the same for all. Most foreigners are willing to listen and learn, the other way round with singaporeans I met. They thought they knew best and simply ignore your advise, till they made mistake and u had to cover their ****.

    Well, not all I have to say. There were 1 singaporean who worked really hard and I respect her. Too bad she's not with us anymore. But mostly, they somehow similarly stubborn.

    The latest addition to my company is a malaysian. He got no experience BUT he's a pleasant guy to work with.
    Yes he made mistakes but at least he's willing to listen.

    Much gap in motivation I guess? some really need to survive while the other still have parents' house to stay.

    I'm not trying to provoke or anything here. I'm just sharing my experience from my point of view.
    IMO, i think education has played a huge part on fresh grads mindset. Our gov promote elitism and often, the fresh grads will think of themselves as elites, even when they are not. The FTs, since they do know that they came from a inferior country, will tend to listen and learn.

    Same thing for the ang mohs who come here to work. A lot of them have the superior mindset when talking to us Asians.

  3. #63
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Faniel View Post
    Same thing for the ang mohs who come here to work. A lot of them have the superior mindset when talking to us Asians.
    Do be careful with such sweeping statements. It might be your personal experience in your company, but that doesn't make it applicable to the rest. Personally I have seen such bad examples, but they were individuals who returned back soon and nobody was sad about it. Those who do not follow the cliche you describe are still here.
    EOS

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
    I have spent a lot of time in China and other countries.

    They love SG.

    Safe, clean, and minimal corruption compared to their countries. A place where people can work hard and get their wage fairly and a chance to have a decent living.
    It's like us going to Australia, work reasonably hard and they get rewarded for their sweat and toil.

    Now compare that to Singaporeans, who want a 'work life balance' - a euphemism for working less and getting paid more. Our productivity is far below Germany, less than China, and yet we complain when we are replaced.

    We do deserve a good standard of living, but it means that we need to work smart and work hard, then go home and rest or play hard. There's no free lunch. When we keep asking for more wages, and the whole cycle of expensive wages, rentals, food, and transport will only get worse. Unless we keep things affordable, keep things efficient and we are competitive on the global front.

    Otherwise we will be eaten alive in the world. And it's not the fault of the 'foreign talent'.. it's easy to blame others, but we should start at home, then see how we can help ourselves.

    My 2c worth.
    That's why I like our country. It has built a solid reputation internationally. A lot of countries respect a lot for SG. BUT it also attracts loads of FTs.......

  5. #65
    Senior Member UncleFai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    That's why I like our country. It has built a solid reputation internationally. A lot of countries respect a lot for SG. BUT it also attracts loads of FTs.......
    There are those who say that the "reputations" are bought for the vanity of the rich and what is more important is freedom and getting back our CPF.

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    All human are born equal. Why would company prefer FT and not local? Just put yourself as a business man, what will you consider for your business?

    On the same note, if you are a FT working here. If I offer you something equal or less off what you could find back bone, would you prefer to come or stay home?

    This is a realitstic world. Spoilt or not, it only happen if you are given a choice. Who created our situation? Think deeper to find the answers

  7. #67

    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenten View Post
    Sammy, my boy .....you take the cake for the longest winded rant ever recorded in a CS kopitiam thread ....
    I thought I saw a dissertation

  8. #68
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Faniel View Post
    Same thing for the ang mohs who come here to work. A lot of them have the superior mindset when talking to us Asians.
    It's our companies that have to be blamed giving them top jobs and top remunerations.

    If we employe them as cleaners in food courts see whether they have superior mindset or not.

    Most of the chauffeurs in Malaysia are Malays. But Mahatir who was great with symbolism employed a Chinese chauffeur when he became Prime Minister.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    It's our companies that have to be blamed giving them top jobs and top remunerations. If we employe them as cleaners in food courts see whether they have superior mindset or not. Most of the chauffeurs in Malaysia are Malays. But Mahatir who was great with symbolism employed a Chinese chauffeur when he became Prime Minister.
    That's a smart move !!! He is trying to prove something
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    If want a relax job, not demanding, high pay, no overtime at a location near home, then might as well stop looking. No such job unless you run for office...
    my job is near to my house, i basically cycle to work, got OT pay except that the job is getting boring.
    and basic not very high.
    perhaps i'll been a document controller for too long, hopefully by may, can graduate and try out a new industry either in insurance or accounting.
    if worst come to worst cannot move on, i might request for internal transfer to the finance dept.
    Last edited by Simon_84; 29th January 2015 at 04:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    There are those who say that the "reputations" are bought for the vanity of the rich and what is more important is freedom and getting back our CPF.
    to older people they say "you waste your money in batam" but when they say it to us here "you waste your money in cameras and lens" LOL
    Sony A7II FE 28 Zeiss 55 FE 90 Sigma 150-600C

  12. #72

    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

    Now compare that to Singaporeans, who want a 'work life balance' - a euphemism for working less and getting paid more. Our productivity is far below Germany, less than China, and yet we complain when we are replaced.

    Depends on the discipline. Particularly about productivity in Germany.

    Common fallacy is that Germans are efficient. From my limited observation, it's because products that are imported into singapore from Germany are generally from highly efficient company products, such as their cars, machinery etc...

    it is also common knowledge that most German work routines are disciplined, rule bound....to the point of being chokingly unimaginative and rigid. A lot of these are due to the sheer amounts of beuracracy.

    When one takes a deeper look and comparison at that form of beauracracy, I see that Singapore is a lot more efficient and definitely higher in productivity.

    In certain disciplines, SG had so much better infrastructure already in place many moons ago, but still require selected and "proper" talent (which is the current dilemma, what and how do you define those?). In some parts of Germany, it takes many moons to just get to an agreement point to say purchase a machine. (They too need proper talents to train and work that machine).

    So I'd say to SG bosses or heads, not all FTs are better and not all locals are good too. It's up to you as bosses and heads to be highly involved in the selection process. If I'm in such a situation, I rather take a longer time to select the quality and put them in higher positions than to just amass anybody who seems overly keen. Many FTs literally take SG as a toilet bowl where they take abit of time to have a dump and then leave after amassing their personal target.


    Again, this is only pertaining to a certain discipline.

    My 0.0000000001cts

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by plsoong View Post
    Depends on the discipline. Particularly about productivity in Germany.

    Common fallacy is that Germans are efficient. From my limited observation, it's because products that are imported into singapore from Germany are generally from highly efficient company products, such as their cars, machinery etc...

    it is also common knowledge that most German work routines are disciplined, rule bound....to the point of being chokingly unimaginative and rigid. A lot of these are due to the sheer amounts of beuracracy.

    When one takes a deeper look and comparison at that form of beauracracy, I see that Singapore is a lot more efficient and definitely higher in productivity.

    .................................................. ...........

    Again, this is only pertaining to a certain discipline.

    My 0.0000000001cts
    Just curious plsoong,

    How do you measure Productivity?

    Thank You
    EisMann

  14. #74

    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by EisMann View Post
    Just curious plsoong,

    How do you measure Productivity?

    Thank You
    EisMann
    In an individualistic n very stripped down manner, % increment or improvement / unit of workforce labour.

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    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by plsoong View Post
    So I'd say to SG bosses or heads, not all FTs are better and not all locals are good too. It's up to you as bosses and heads to be highly involved in the selection process. If I'm in such a situation, I rather take a longer time to select the quality and put them in higher positions than to just amass anybody who seems overly keen.
    On this part you are right while the rest of your posting lacks accuracy and context. Just a hint: look at the reasons why things are done in Germany the way they do it. It tells you more.
    Coming back to your point: it is a typical 'feature' of Singapore that everything must be done quickly. The catching up with first world countries is done on the fast lane, literally. Where other countries took 20 years to develop and grow, Singapore wants to achieve the same in 10 years or less. Therefore, the 'quick fix' approach is taken everywhere, be it the import of foreign talents to 'solve problems' (which are actually coming from the quick fix approach) or the fast lane career that people want to take.
    EOS

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    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by plsoong View Post
    In an individualistic n very stripped down manner, % increment or improvement / unit of workforce labour.
    If you use the % of increment then you don't measure overall productivity, but rather analyze the increment.
    Productivity is result vs costs. Typical for Singapore is to focus on reducing the costs to drive up the profit, selling this as productivity. Instead (and using your reference of Germany), other people focus on improving the overall result by keeping the costs under control. That's the reason why German products show this high quality level: they focus on improving products, not producing the same stuff just cheaper (that would be the Chinese way...)
    EOS

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    If you use the % of increment then you don't measure overall productivity, but rather analyze the increment.
    Productivity is result vs costs. Typical for Singapore is to focus on reducing the costs to drive up the profit, selling this as productivity. Instead (and using your reference of Germany), other people focus on improving the overall result by keeping the costs under control. That's the reason why German products show this high quality level: they focus on improving products, not producing the same stuff just cheaper (that would be the Chinese way...)
    And China is changing. Quality has been coming up fast for many leading companies.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    If you use the % of increment then you don't measure overall productivity, but rather analyze the increment.
    Productivity is result vs costs. Typical for Singapore is to focus on reducing the costs to drive up the profit, selling this as productivity. Instead (and using your reference of Germany), other people focus on improving the overall result by keeping the costs under control. That's the reason why German products show this high quality level: they focus on improving products, not producing the same stuff just cheaper (that would be the Chinese way...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    If you use the % of increment then you don't measure overall productivity, but rather analyze the increment.
    Productivity is result vs costs. Typical for Singapore is to focus on reducing the costs to drive up the profit, selling this as productivity. Instead (and using your reference of Germany), other people focus on improving the overall result by keeping the costs under control. That's the reason why German products show this high quality level: they focus on improving products, not producing the same stuff just cheaper (that would be the Chinese way...)
    Hi octarine,

    I hear you and thank you for your response. Again just to clarify, what I wrote pertains to only a certain discipline which I'm in. I do not mean to say everything in Germany. Each country has its pros and cons as we all know it. The mindset that European products tend to get an overall better appreciation which then associates to that society norm is something ridiculous that I think we should stamp out.

    Just so you know, not every discipline use result vs cost as a measure of productivity. Hence in my discipline which I've clearly previously, % increment or decrement per unit human labour is more representative in this sense. Itself as a percentage, there can already be time factor, hence a little of microscopic efficiency within.
    I agree that on a macroscopic level, it does not give an overall indication of productivity, hence my focus on one such discipline.

    German products are NO WAY cheaper, EVEN in Germany. This is given to their highly confusing taxations laws.
    I do however agree that a typical issue in SG is the focus on COST as a primary concern, kinda prior to quality. But then again, there are lotsa SG companies that started on quality first before moving to scale down cost overtime.

    IMHO, I'm not here to argue which country is more productive. I'm here to state that to have this mindset that European/foreign countries are more productive and have better produce (includes labour) than SG is such a deep rooted mindset since colonial times that we all SGporeans should really band together to set a scale/measure on what is an effective/productive FT or local for that matter, rather than always looking at the other side as a reference of "standards". Of course, we do not need to become all inclusive only. Again it's not gonna be easy, but it surely can start with a mindset change.

    Just FYI, that's also how and why the Germans are infinitely proud of their system and products, despite being shown better ways or produce. It first requires a major mindset shift to re-believe in their own system before they can be the "current" largest market in EU. If SG is trying to achieve this, I think the local bosses in SG should be highly engaged to help create this shift to set our own bar.

    im currently residing in Germany, so feel free to PM me if you'd like to find out more about the sentiments here.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Singapore is always subscribing to the cheap and good model..
    There's little margin in this model.
    And as a result we feel things need to be cheap or free ..
    See how Singaporeans whine about the lack of free water at restaurants..

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    Senior Member Nikonzen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    And China is changing. Quality has been coming up fast for many leading companies.
    They just needed enough time to learn to build the machines that will build machines...with that base and population base and a paradigm shift in the Chinese intellect and voila - the phoenix rises! FT will soon be going there to leave you all alone! Instead tourist will come bring you all their money!
    Expand your mind or get left behind

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