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Thread: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's company)

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    I would like to remind everyone to refrain from any form of ranting, gossip, hearsay, bashing of nationalities and other nonsensical stuff. Stick to facts, discuss based on facts.
    Thanks for your attention.
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Kahuna View Post
    Not true
    I thought so too ..... but the one said this was a PhD holder ....... so much for the type of foreign talents we are bringing to Singapore .......
    Last edited by Zenten; 14th January 2015 at 02:27 PM.
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    Back to TS's original post, actually I thought that some things that your friend could have done better. For example, was there really a need to send them on course, would OJT have sufficed? Even if they had been sent on course, could they have made to sign a bond?

    And I dun really agree about the implied loyalty of ft to the company. If there is a higher paying job elsewhere, they will leave all the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brapodam View Post

    I thought most companies do a probation period? If you are crap, why hold on to you for 1 year? But it's a double edged sword too, since as I understand it, both parties (employer and employee) can terminate the employment with 1 day notice. So employee can also go on training then jump ship to other company for higher pay.

    If by 1 year bond you mean that employee must work for 1 year but employer can fire you within that 1 year, then I think it's a bit unfair for the employee also.
    During probation terms of resignation is determined by the employment contract or letter of appointment. No defacto term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    Happened several years ago: bumped into a friend who was unemployed for some time. He told me that he has been going for those government skill upgrading programme.

    I asked: "Don't they also help you find jobs?"

    He said: "Ya useless buggers. I went for a few interviews they set up for me. Either too far, low pay, physically demanding, long hours or shift work. Useless lah."
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinJoyfish View Post
    Fully agreed with leg n hands up.
    KNS all put up shows and acting..
    If want a relax job, not demanding, high pay, no overtime at a location near home, then might as well stop looking. No such job unless you run for office...

    Yes there are problems with foreign talents coming in and taking up many jobs. They can live with less, work harder... locals better rethink their own value add to any organization. Not saying there is no problems with current foreign employment policies, but the complacencies and behaviors of many local people in the workforce does not really help.

    SMEs are getting squeezed at every angle. Doing business in sg is getting a lot harder, costs are rising like crazy. Employees better be worth their salt or out they go.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 14th January 2015 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    Over the new year, I met up with a good friend for a chat. He told me about the above story with regards to his close friend who is a boss of a SME.

    Here was his friend - the boss's story. This is a true story. However, please take note that it does not represent other employers. You can treat is as a exclusive case. This is not about bashing FTs thread, just sharing with you on the insight story about a local SME.

    Some time ago, the boss who is a Singaporean, believing that Singaporeans should be given the first chance to be employed. With this mindset, he recruited a few years old experience Singaporean who is a diploma holder for a position in operations. He was paid $3,800 monthly salary. In order to fulfill the job, this new guy needed to go for 3 months training which was sponsored by the company. Unfortunately, the company's payoff was not harvesting any result. Upon completion of the 3 months training, this diploma holder guy with the acquired new skills and knowledge tendered his resignation, citing better offer from other companies. The boss felt rejected but it was ok since people come and go. With the first setback, he still believes in employing Singaporean first.

    Later on, he managed to recruit a Singaporean fresh graduate with no experience, paying him $3,300 monthly salary. Again, this new guy went for the 3 months training, fully sponsored by the company. It was very unfortunate that this new guy also resigned shortly after completed the training. The reason cited was because another company offered him a slightly higher salary.

    With these 2 setbacks, the boss began to think whether his original ideology is realistic. It seems to him that many Singaporeans are ungrateful, no company loyalty, want less work but high salary.

    Finally, he decided to employ foreign talents - 2 Filipinos to see if there is any difference. There is a great difference according to him. Not only the cost is lesser to the company but the working attitudes are much better than those 2 Singaporeans. They come to work at 7am (official start time is 8am); very on the ball. They are also very polite and courteous; they will greet you when they see you. They even prepare coffee for the boss. Their working attitudes are very positive simply because they know that if they under performed, their employment pass will be invoked and they will have to go back to their own country. Most of these FTs want to come to Singapore to work because of strong Sing dollar, employment ability based on meritocracy, etc. They stand a very high chance competing with the locals. This is very unique to Singapore.
    You may want to consider that Singaporeans are bright and they work smart and not hard.

    Working hard and loyalty are a slow way of rising to the top dollars.

    Job hopping will get you there faster.


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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    If want a relax job, not demanding, high pay, no overtime at a location near home, then might as well stop looking. No such job unless you run for office... Yes there are problems with foreign talents coming in and taking up many jobs. They can live with less, work harder... locals better rethink their own value add to any organization. Not saying there is no problems with current foreign employment policies, but the complacencies and behaviors of many local people in the workforce does not really help. SMEs are getting squeezed at every angle. Doing business in sg is getting a lot harder, costs are rising like crazy. Employees better be worth their salt or out they go.
    Well said. Can't agree more. Sorry to say this. But many locals have it coming. For a start, I know many who do not see upgrading their skills as an investment. They see it as a waste of money. Mind you many of these people have been in the industry for a long time and are, to put it bluntly, too proud to admit they should upgrade their skills.

    And they go about expecting to be spoonfed. Uncle Fai's friend has basically proven that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    You may want to consider that Singaporeans are bright and they work smart and not hard. Working hard and loyalty are a slow way of rising to the top dollars. Job hopping will get you there faster.
    I respectfully disagree sir. I am not sure I would go so far as to say they work smart. How many actually can say they are passionate about what they do? Or is it just "a job" to them.

    If it's just "a job" then you can expect the employer to also find "an employee" and the more value the employer gets from the employee the better.

    Fact is, I have personally seen executives who cannot even string together a coherent paragraph and present a case to convince others of their point. Because one, how many actually have an opinion. You'd be surprised at the number of parrots we have in the PMET workforce.

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by G-man View Post
    I respectfully disagree sir. I am not sure I would go so far as to say they work smart. How many actually can say they are passionate about what they do? Or is it just "a job" to them. [...]
    You might have missed the irony in Sion's posting.
    EOS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    You might have missed the irony in Sion's posting.
    Knowing Sion, probably

    Doesn't change the fact that I disagree with the statement.

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by G-man View Post
    Knowing Sion, probably

    Doesn't change the fact that I disagree with the statement.
    I won't argue with you on that.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Ok a little free and in a mood to rant .... That' what happen when you are between jobs.

    There's always more the one side to every story. The retail company I worked in had dismissed or hand over to police foreign staff that were dishonest and caught. Also not unheard of, foreign workers do come late for work, can be slow to learn, play politics games, rude and bullying or favoritism of among staff . One to whom I interviewed and gave a job even tried to hijack my job. But the same can be said of locals too. They all have their own unique good and bad qualities as human beings.

    For whatever reason(s) you need to supplement local employee with foreigners, you have to be prepared for possible conflicts and situation that require different approaches to the same work issues due to nationalities, cultural, motivation and expectation. It can be hard getting some to change and assimilate into our culture. At times, even locals can a challenge. The company I worked for, believe in recruiting locals first before seeking foreigners. They all have to meet standards set for the job regardless local or not. The retail trade faces big challenges recruiting locals. For staff we recruit, 10 or more are a no show for interviews, including not showing up for work on the first day. FW stealing jobs? Not really from my company's stand point.

    It's been years since Singapore relaxed foreign workers legislation from Philippines, China and Myanmar to supplement the local workforce. Compared to the early years and now, I would say it has gotten a little crazier. Mostly good with the occasional sprinkle of bad experiences is how i would describe my work with foreign workers. In recent years, the gradual protest is coming to a head among a segment of Singaporeans (including posted articles in news & social medias) centering on foreign workers taking many of local choice jobs and opportunities.

    But we are also seeing a bit of a "push back' effect from reported Pinoy individuals who condemn locals in retaliation and bluntly open in defiance. I suspect this is more plausible given in the last few years, their numbers has grown considerably in Singapore, they are more settled with some having worked here longer then 4 - 6 years, adopted some our culture quirks (good & bad) network among themselves inot a kind of groups dynamic that foster a deep root support bond, close knit kinship that reinforcing their belief, home cultures and values? Beyond the usual cultural differences, I noted for sometime, emerging traits normally seen effecting a percentage of Singaporean and that being material pursuit given their new found wealth (better job pay here compared to where they came from and some are not sending money home) and the 'one-up-showmanship'. Your money is not my business. But where it has an effect on work in some way, that's where it concerns me. There are cases of credit card debt situation, money borrowing conflict among staff, stealing from the store...etc. BUT AGAIN this happens with locals too. I am just saying, for those who speak highly of their work ethic, squeaky goodie image and all that thus you let your guard down? They are like anyone else in Singapore. Good and bad apples. They can get up from the wrong side of bed grumpy and bring that to work too.

    Stealing jobs from locals? I can only say in the retail industry, locals are not as thrill to seek a career in retail unless positions are high level, well paid office hours and possibly no shift work or off on Sunday. Those are things a retail trade are not able to offer but it has it's reward on it's own way but local not really into this serving people thingy so much.

    Example. Like what Hong Kong went thru around the 80s - 90s. For those who visited the country those days, you often encountered sales assistance who were annoyingly rude and lack sale service flair that at times makes you want to walk off. They went thru a bad spell when their economy tanked and SARS hit them hard for good measure. They took great strive in changing mindset and that change was most apparent especially in the retail sector. Now you visit Hong Kong, and enter even a small shop peddling small trinkets, the service is impressive, they take pride in their work to make a sale. My boss said, he wish he could bring them all back to Singapore to work in his stores. Positive greeting, attentive, product knowledge is at the tip of their finger, good finishing and up selling skills. The overall service standard is really high. You can also see that same high level of service in Thailand when you go to the shopping malls. Does Singapore have staff like that? Yes but way way too few by far. This can happen with foreign workers too but the good things is most of the time, they are able to adapt and learn and not shy to try it wholeheartedly without feeling like serving others or selling is a low class job.

    Maybe Singapore had it too good for too long in peace time. We seen to be forgetting all too soon the bad economy patches thru the 90s and early 2000s. Or sheltered our kids too much in the last decade or so that when they now come out to work, they think the world owes them a bright future. Are we doing them a disservice preparing them?

    These day we need to run faster just to stay where we are without sliding backward. I know that is not fair but if the foreign workers or talent can do what you do BUT cheaper and/or faster, trying to stop them from coming WILL NOT solve it. Because, another country will do it cheaper so what are we going to do? Call the govt to contact that country to not do it cheaper and faster?

    Trade protection is not the answer. A lot of work skills face a big chance of getting obsolete or be replicated by a cheaper source at any time. You have to "up-your-game" to the next level to stay ahead. Paper qualification can only take you so far. It could be worst in the future. Take for example, I had 2 good Filipino staff in my former team I trust to carry out work tot he letter and i recommend for promotion, one was a Journalist degree holder and the other an Engineer degree from Philippines. And they are here in Singapore as Retail Associates. Fancy word for Sales Assistants. My visual merchandiser (display artist) is an Architect degree holder. You can say, Singapore degree is too good and world famous to be down graded. Scary thought if you are in that situation. But what I am saying is be thankful you are not in that situation. You may think little of their degrees but as far as I had spend time talking to them, they know their stuff and they still had to work really hard to get the degree and yet come here to be a sales man, a display artist, store-man, junior accounting, repairman..etc.

    I told this to some friends of mine, 20 yrs ago about how computers are changing many things we take for granted and how it effect our work and play. They say I was giving computer tech too much credit. That same year, I joined a company where it had 10 staff accounting dept. Most were data entry and bookkeeping staff, 2 account executives, one account manager and one finance director. That year they upgraded and integrate the accounting, ERP and Inventory control software into one. The last time they upgraded the system was 10 yrs prior. Once it came online, within less then a year, the dept was reduced to 4 people. Account director was outsourced to a 3rd party consultancy. The upgrade was that much more efficient.

    That's life moving forward. Work smarter, a little harder, do something another person will not in order to stay relevant and maybe reinvent yourself if you have to. We can try to blame it all on foreign workers and get them out of Singapore but really that is not going to help in the long terms as competition is not just from within Singapore but global. And technology is contributing to killing jobs at the same time, so how are you going to get that OUT of Singapore next?

    Technological advancement get more work done with less people, in a shorter time and cheaper. 7 Billion people on Earth today. It's becoming more and more about finding food to feed people then finding you a job. This is not something that will happen 50 years from now but maybe in my life time and I am 52. Do the math. We went from 2 Billion people to 7 Billion in 200 years. And growing. Don't care about big fancy job titles, just having a good enough job might be a daunting prospect for our kids if not us. Every time technology advances, it takes away certain job type .... forever. We already saw that happen in Singapore in the 70s/80s where unskilled manual assembly factories move to Malaysia as it's cheaper to pay people to assemble products there. Then it was China's turn. And soon to come, "made in Indonesia" as it starting to get a little expensive to produce things in China. A fact I am aware as it is it happening to some of my suppliers right now.

    We have not even gotten to the political issues that can complicate all this further. And I am not just talking local politics but global. You want your next iphone to be better, high status symbol, more features, more powerful and of course as cheap as possible. How do you do that when everyone wants a high paying job with little stress, good yearly increment, more days off, bonuses, better working hours, easier sales targets, good job promotion, ..etc. Something has got to give my friends. You don't get anything for nothing.

    Don't kill the messenger. Just thinking out loud heheh... but I am sure most already thinking about stuff. I just want to rant heh.

    How's is it for other industry?
    Last edited by sammy888; 14th January 2015 at 11:19 PM. Reason: typo
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Sammy, my boy .....you take the cake for the longest winded rant ever recorded in a CS kopitiam thread ....
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenten View Post
    Sammy, my boy .....you take the cake for the longest winded rant ever recorded in a CS kopitiam thread ....
    This is a very profound, incisive and compelling piece of writing.

    One of the best in the history of Kopitiam.

    I've never read any post that is more than three sentences. But I read every word of this post of his.

    Last edited by Sion; 14th January 2015 at 09:05 PM.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenten View Post
    Sammy, my boy .....you take the cake for the longest winded rant ever recorded in a CS kopitiam thread ....
    Nope I have done longer in clubsnap years ago and labelled long winded too..... this one I heavily edited as I found out there had a maximum character limit set now which i did not know till I hit the send button and it ask me to cut down heheheh.. I have to cut 30% LOL. My way of coping with dyslexia and boredom.
    Last edited by sammy888; 14th January 2015 at 11:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by sammy888 View Post
    Nope I have done longer in clubsnap years ago and labelled long winded too..... this one I heavily edited as I found out there had a maximum character limit set now which i did not know till I hit the send button and it ask me to cut down heheheh.. I have to cut 30% LOL. My way of coping with dyslexia and boredom.
    Next time divide your long posts into Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 etc. etc.

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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans (in my friend's friend's comp

    Quote Originally Posted by sammy888 View Post
    Nope I have done longer in clubsnap years ago and labelled long winded too..... this one I heavily edited as I found out there had a maximum character limit set now which i did not know till I hit the send button and it ask me to cut down heheheh.. I have to cut 30% LOL. My way of coping with dyslexia and boredom.

    Yes, that is your style, since many years ago....

    but I don't recall I had ever finish reading any of your posting before, sorry about that.
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    I have seen people come and go in my current company for the past 5 years and yeah, all the singaporeans my boss tried to hire have no competency at all and some of them really have bad attitude.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by cirenaiht View Post
    I have seen people come and go in my current company for the past 5 years and yeah, all the singaporeans my boss tried to hire have no competency at all and some of them really have bad attitude.
    So what's keeping your boss from hiring foreign talents or maybe your company already has a pool of them?
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    Default Re: Why foreign talents are preferred over Singaporeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by cirenaiht View Post
    I have seen people come and go in my current company for the past 5 years and yeah, all the singaporeans my boss tried to hire have no competency at all and some of them really have bad attitude.
    Can you share a few more details? What industry is this? What jobs were to be filled? In which way did they lack competency? (Interviews are done based on CV, so was it all faked?) What bad attitude did your boss notice?
    EOS

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