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Thread: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

  1. #41

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    The force is strong when the SEED day is approaching.

  2. #42
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    Default jokes

    Originally posted by franciskc
    not to 4get me too.
    Just joking lar, but i still prefer to shoot alone or closer frens as i noe em better and can crack better /dirty jokes together.
    talking about dirty jokes - the other day I saw two of alley cats mating outside my house under broad daylight. In order for me to start shooting with my S602 I have to get really close to them. Oh man! By getting as close to 40 cm away to them didn't even stop them from continuing the act. Then my bf said, "with alley cats like these, who needs discovery channel."

  3. #43
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    Default

    Originally posted by togu
    Look for togu, he's always there.
    Well now you are camless & "fleshless" (flashless) how to spot you?
    Last edited by SMM; 3rd January 2003 at 05:45 PM.

  4. #44
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    Default

    Aiyah segregate? The idea is to mix and know each other. I've been to a few outing where the ladies join us and they had a nice time. Sure it's shy at first but after that they became regulars during our outing. To name a few: Fireworks shoot, Night shoot, SBG shoot, Fashion shoot. So ladies just come and join lah.

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    Default u r wrong~~

    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    Why segregate? We are a free society with everyone as equals.
    Ever heard of Singapore Bikers Club..
    If you go in, there is actually a female biker group.
    BUT the folder is hidden. Only the gals get in, cos sometimes, 1 female biker to go out with another 20 males, she feel shy etc... So the gals try to know each other first THEN they go as a group to meet the rest of the bikers.. (I got gfs who are members and they told me about it).

    At least the gals inside here gets to know each other first, so they can have some company.

    Just an example...

  6. #46

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    Ha ha talking about randy cats... but i heard tat u better not disturb them or else next time will have bao ying and have problem with your s*x life. haha. tat's wat i have heard.
    actually i would love to join these outings. however think the main problem (for mi) is my kit. haha i'm still a student and i onli can afford a Pana fz5.(now everyday eat grass haha but i am proud of my camera ) haha doesn't even have a hotshoe and manual focus. i would love to get a DSLR but for now even my pocket money is jus enuff. so if i join u guys for SEED, (seed is the time u guys purchase stuff is it?) or go out for some shooting say ndp fireworks, i'm more concern about being out casted unintensionally or well like my equipment can't perform up to standard. for example, if i join the ndp gathering which is located up shears bridge, i will have problem taking pictures there, cos firstly, my camera dun have the remote shutter release,(trying to figure out how to make one), and i dun have a wide angle lense and stuff.... haha if there is outing for like non DSLR or got more ppl who goes using non DSLR, then our limitations and restrictions due to our kit is better understood and considered. nontheless, i would like to give the outings a try (before anyhow making judgements) before my next semester starts. Having a all non DSLR outing would also be wonderful

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    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    i guess. what we can do now is prolly organise a outing where theres not much restriction to equipment. where a kit lens or even a prosumer range camera and do its best work.

    well.. i am realli nt sure what singapore has to offer in this. and!! so i am looking forward in the next outing. hoping that it will be a sports event or a well i dunno...

    adam nice work there... good analysis. so prolly nxt time i can ask u help me do statistics hahahhahaa...

  8. #48
    Senior Member glennyong's Avatar
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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    and i guess most of us are right as in the outings are male dominated. prolly the females are nt realli that comfortable ???

  9. #49
    Senior Member dominator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Just look at all the guys being so "friendly" when there is a female member posting a new thread. and always the thread will be very popular.....because thread starter is a female. even if the topic is so boliao, it will be popular as well.

    or look at photo shoot especially on female models...many guy seems to rush in to participate. worst still if the model is on this forum...

    well, my friend she told me this! because she is a member of this forum but she said will never join any outing.

    anyone agree?
    Cleanse your thoughts, not by the foods you eat.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    My two cents' worth.

    I'm completely new to photography, and I've joined ClubSNAP for about a month only. You can see from the number of posts how green I am to this forum. I'm female (since that perspective is relevant for discussion :P) and I just joined my first gathering with CSers yesterday, to Pulau Ubin, organised by King Tiger.

    Let me write the blunt stuff first. I was reading a thread about a model shoot and somebody posted to ask the photographer if he took the picture "the day before her that one", a reference, I believe, to the poster's perception of a tummy on the model. I'm new to photography forums, and I hardly read Internet forums in general, so I was a bit shocked to see this kind of remark posted where all can read. I know this is the kind of thing guys say to one another, but within "earshot" of females, it seems a bit insensitive.

    There are quite a few avatars of babes on this forum. I'm not sure of the gender of the avatar owners. My initial thoughts were, if you're a guy, why would you have an avatar of a babe as visual representation of your identity? I don't know if this contributes to the idea that CS guys really LIKE pictures of babes, and will look and critique girls, just like they critique photographs.

    Now, words in fairness. Photographers are, almost by definition, interested in visual beauty, one form or another. Commenting on the beauty of a photograph will often mean commenting on the subject of a photograph. If someone makes a comment about a model, this is real-world comment on a photograph, which is feedback for a working photographer. If I were a photographer of male models, I would want to know how an entire photo is perceived, including the subject.

    People just haven't been organising male model shoots as frequently as female, so nobody has had to read comments about six-packs and butts, MAYBE! But guys, how would you feel if this forum was mostly female and you frequently read this kind of comments? Will this make you shy about going for gatherings?

    And then, also, if two hundred members don't have anything to say about a particular photo, but one person posts something about a model's looks, that post will seem like "the voice of the forum". You get what I mean?

    Now, to talk about my experience at my first gathering. I knew none of the people beforehand. I signed up and went alone simply because I wanted to go. Out of 18 (?) people, I was one out of two girls. I really enjoyed myself and found the company very likeable, although I didn't get to talk to everyone (I'm shy too). I could really see the passion these people have for photography. Although I was one of the few carrying a prosumer camera, after my initial sheepishness, I didn't feel so bad.

    It was definitely more fun than going to Pulau Ubin on my own, and going with fellow photographers means you can spend time taking photographs without feeling apologetic to non-photographer friends who accompany you. In short, I had a great time!

    I don't think the guys should be the ones commenting on whether there should be girls-only gatherings :P. After all, we're not talking about "need" or not, we're talking about comfort and interest level. If there are girls interested in organising such activities, let them take the lead, and see where it goes.

    Really sorry for this long post.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Most of the older hands know that equipment does not necessarily mean a limitation to creation of an image of standard. Any person or person that is shortsighted enough to push away people on the capabilites of that person kit is probably not able to really work their own kit to the 80 to 90% of its capacity. Photography is a visual thing and you need to learn to see before you can create good works. The understand of the limitation and how to work your equipment is the other end - call it a translation to what you see into reality. most people start off as gear heads then mature into photogs of coruse some never do. these mature into collectors. each have there place in your universe, the gear heads/collectors are good sources of information on gear, just filter out the u need to buy this to do that attitude. people who actual shoot well are good sources for infomation, inspiration and company to move along. unfortunately at some stage you will need to start shoot solo because some times in group you do not concentrate enough on what you should be doing but do too much chit chatting. anyways even in a group you shoot alone - can 2 or more people look thru the same viewfinder and control the trigger ?
    Quote Originally Posted by xiaowugui82
    Ha ha talking about randy cats... but i heard tat u better not disturb them or else next time will have bao ying and have problem with your s*x life. haha. tat's wat i have heard.
    actually i would love to join these outings. however think the main problem (for mi) is my kit. haha i'm still a student and i onli can afford a Pana fz5.(now everyday eat grass haha but i am proud of my camera ) haha doesn't even have a hotshoe and manual focus. i would love to get a DSLR but for now even my pocket money is jus enuff. so if i join u guys for SEED, (seed is the time u guys purchase stuff is it?) or go out for some shooting say ndp fireworks, i'm more concern about being out casted unintensionally or well like my equipment can't perform up to standard. for example, if i join the ndp gathering which is located up shears bridge, i will have problem taking pictures there, cos firstly, my camera dun have the remote shutter release,(trying to figure out how to make one), and i dun have a wide angle lense and stuff.... haha if there is outing for like non DSLR or got more ppl who goes using non DSLR, then our limitations and restrictions due to our kit is better understood and considered. nontheless, i would like to give the outings a try (before anyhow making judgements) before my next semester starts. Having a all non DSLR outing would also be wonderful

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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    My two cents' worth.

    I'm completely new to photography, and I've joined ClubSNAP for about a month only. You can see from the number of posts how green I am to this forum. I'm female (since that perspective is relevant for discussion :P) and I just joined my first gathering with CSers yesterday, to Pulau Ubin, organised by King Tiger.
    Welcome, there's a ladies subforum hidden, you might want to PM the admins so that you can get access to the forum, but you'll need to prove you're a real female somehow before they give you access.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    Let me write the blunt stuff first. I was reading a thread about a model shoot and somebody posted to ask the photographer if he took the picture "the day before her that one", a reference, I believe, to the poster's perception of a tummy on the model. I'm new to photography forums, and I hardly read Internet forums in general, so I was a bit shocked to see this kind of remark posted where all can read. I know this is the kind of thing guys say to one another, but within "earshot" of females, it seems a bit insensitive.
    I haven't been reading, but yes, it's uncalled for, over here, it's much better than SammyBoy and HWZ already, just some inconsiderate folks that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    There are quite a few avatars of babes on this forum. I'm not sure of the gender of the avatar owners. My initial thoughts were, if you're a guy, why would you have an avatar of a babe as visual representation of your identity? I don't know if this contributes to the idea that CS guys really LIKE pictures of babes, and will look and critique girls, just like they critique photographs.
    Avatars don't have to necessarily reflect us as ourselves, avatars are just like a image link reference, most would know who's replying based on the avatar they see next to the post. Not necessarily representing us that we like to cross dress or we want to become female.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    Now, words in fairness. Photographers are, almost by definition, interested in visual beauty, one form or another. Commenting on the beauty of a photograph will often mean commenting on the subject of a photograph. If someone makes a comment about a model, this is real-world comment on a photograph, which is feedback for a working photographer. If I were a photographer of male models, I would want to know how an entire photo is perceived, including the subject.
    What's wrong with comments? Absorb what you want and throw what you don't want away.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    People just haven't been organising male model shoots as frequently as female, so nobody has had to read comments about six-packs and butts, MAYBE! But guys, how would you feel if this forum was mostly female and you frequently read this kind of comments? Will this make you shy about going for gatherings?
    Just FYI, I've shot 2 male models last week, who says there isn't any male model shoots and that we don't shoot males? I just happen to shoot less males as compared to ladies. Males kinda take more challenge in me that's about it.

    Just FYI, I have NO problems with an all girls outing and me the only male. Don't believe it, try it. Just don't regret it

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    And then, also, if two hundred members don't have anything to say about a particular photo, but one person posts something about a model's looks, that post will seem like "the voice of the forum". You get what I mean?
    Most lurk and don't comment, a general thing among most forum, only talkative people like me talk a lot, reply a lot and does nothing constructive (most of the time). Like I said, you need to learn when to take the comment and when to put somebody on ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    Now, to talk about my experience at my first gathering. I knew none of the people beforehand. I signed up and went alone simply because I wanted to go. Out of 18 (?) people, I was one out of two girls. I really enjoyed myself and found the company very likeable, although I didn't get to talk to everyone (I'm shy too). I could really see the passion these people have for photography. Although I was one of the few carrying a prosumer camera, after my initial sheepishness, I didn't feel so bad.
    That's the effort, just shoot, don't feel bad about what you use, it's the final image that counts, every image is a story. Nothing to be shy or not!!! KT and folks are nice people. Join them more.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    It was definitely more fun than going to Pulau Ubin on my own, and going with fellow photographers means you can spend time taking photographs without feeling apologetic to non-photographer friends who accompany you. In short, I had a great time!
    I know what you mean, if I didn't allocate my sunday for family day, I would have joined King Tiger and folks out at P.U. shooting. It beats bantering & fighting about FF and or DSLRs in CS. Sheesh!

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    I don't think the guys should be the ones commenting on whether there should be girls-only gatherings :P. After all, we're not talking about "need" or not, we're talking about comfort and interest level. If there are girls interested in organising such activities, let them take the lead, and see where it goes.
    There ARE ladies gathering, I believe the ladies subforum had already held one or two last year, if you feel intimidated, you may join them and go out with them. I don't see the need to segregate, but mostly gals feel that they want to be private in their outings, well that's them. I've had outings with ladies myself, even our regular Nikon User Group outings, we had 3 ladies joining us regularly - f**b***, s***x, c*m***, so who says they're shy and not comfortable around guys? Hehe.

    Don't stereotype so fast on the guys in CS. There are nice guys around like King Tiger and lots more!



    Sorry for my kay-pohism in replying
    Last edited by espn; 12th September 2005 at 11:11 AM.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Just FYI, I've shot 2 male models last week, who says there isn't any male model shoots and that we don't shoot males?
    I didn't say.

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    I've had outings with ladies myself, even our regular Nikon User Group outings, we had 3 ladies joining us regularly - f**b***, s***x, c*m***, so who says they're shy and not comfortable around guys? Hehe.
    I didn't say.

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Don't stereotype so fast on the guys in CS. There are nice guys around like King Tiger and lots more!
    I didn't stereotype.

    Come on, I didn't even pull along a chaperone to my first blind outing. If I already stereotyped, I wouldn't have gone, right?

    Actually, my mentality was: In the worst case, if I find myself really unhappy there, I'm just writing off half a day, and I never need to go for another outing again. (And if someone posts public comments speculating when is my that one, I never need to visit this forum again. Hehe.) What happened was I really had fun making new friends and taking pictures...the best case scenario instead!

    I hope anyone thinking of joining a gathering can adopt a just-do-it attitude, just for one day.

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Sorry for my kay-pohism in replying
    Hey, I really appreciate your perspective, especially as a male owner of a babe avatar. It's cool. I've seen many more kinds of avatars since my introduction here, and I'm not thinking that we have CS members who are butterflies.
    Last edited by kaywalk; 12th September 2005 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    Hey, I really appreciate your perspective, especially as a male owner of a babe avatar. It's cool. I've seen many more kinds of avatars since my introduction here, and I'm not thinking that we have CS members who are butterflies.
    At first, I also thought they are real girls and almost asked a guy named venom out because his avatar reminded me of an actress. A good thing I don't practice "just-do-it" attitude or else I will be in theraphy by now. Anyway, those who post girl photo (or landscape or macro) just means they are just proud of their work.

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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Hi Kaywalk,

    Nice of you to join us last Sunday for the P Ubin outing. Too bad I could not go to the island itself, but I'm glad to have had the chat with you over breakfast.

    Wow, it did not occur to me how much "2nd thinking" you had put into joining us, and I really hope that KT's outing was a turning point for you in perception changing .

    I had stuck to an entry level (not even prosumer) point & shoot of about three years and resisted the temptation to get a DSLR for affordability (in $ & time) and learning curve reasons. I learnt a lot in those three years, especially on the battery life, memory management, file organization and sharing of digital photos... something even DSLR shooters will face. So go through the "discipline" of these steps and when you are ready for DSLR, it will be 2nd nature to you .

    As for the other key point of your post, I cannot generalize on the "nature" of forums and the characters that "lurk" behind the Avatars. But I have come to know that there are more friendly hobbyist/professionals willing to take the time and welcome new-comers than those who are a put-off.

    Unfortunately, since CS is majority male, the occassional "guy-talk" tends to creep into posts. This is where human behavior has yet to catch-up with the reality of technology. Most posts are written in conversational style, rather than a well thought-out essay. And as such, people tend to forget that the written (or typed) word is different from a spoken one. The permanance of the written word and the lack of non-verbal feedback makes the statement prone to misunderstanding and/or unintended readership. I doubt many would take the time to write differently from the way they talk and think of the consequenses of the written "evidence" that lingers for others to read .

    Perhaps "within earshot" is too weak an analogy, because one has to be at the right place at the right time to encounter the "guy-talk". Wouldn't a closer analogue be "within sight of a graffiti"? Wouldn't this more aptly describe the responsibility of both the writer and the reader ?

    So, to me, there will always be undesirable comments made and there will always be great outings to meet up with the real (as oppose to on-line) personalities of those behind the Avatars, and the choice is within me to take the risk and discover it .


    BTW, don't forget to post your pics!
    Last edited by ykia; 12th September 2005 at 06:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    Come on, I didn't even pull along a chaperone to my first blind outing. If I already stereotyped, I wouldn't have gone, right?

    Actually, my mentality was: In the worst case, if I find myself really unhappy there, I'm just writing off half a day, and I never need to go for another outing again. (And if someone posts public comments speculating when is my that one, I never need to visit this forum again. Hehe.) What happened was I really had fun making new friends and taking pictures...the best case scenario instead!

    I hope anyone thinking of joining a gathering can adopt a just-do-it attitude, just for one day.
    I see where you're coming from, but the problem is not many would do that or overcome that ego portion, I joined with a CoolPix long ago, even when others have started DSLRs and etc, some looked down on me, some ignored me, some think I'm incompetent (well, they got this one right). I can understand where the small players stand and what they're feeling.

    Nowadays many have migrated to big equipment, small players generally will feel afraid, I always encourage them to join but it's just the fear factor, to me, big small or any camera would get what you want in the image. Sad to say, many here think otherwise, Sigh. Others shun away because of gender reasons blah blah blah. Glad you enjoyed the outing by KT, do join more, he's capable and will teach you many more things you never knew about shooting.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaywalk
    Hey, I really appreciate your perspective, especially as a male owner of a babe avatar. It's cool. I've seen many more kinds of avatars since my introduction here, and I'm not thinking that we have CS members who are butterflies.
    ERM... my avatar? Lucky shot. Hee. Supposed to change it but I accidentally deleted the shot I wanted to use from my CF card
    Last edited by espn; 13th September 2005 at 09:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    I see where you're coming from, but the problem is not many would do that or overcome that ego portion, I joined with a CoolPix long ago, even when others have started DSLRs and etc, some looked down on me, some ignored me, some think I'm incompetent (well, they got this one right). I can understand where the small players stand and what they're feeling.

    Nowadays many have migrated to big equipment, small players generally will feel afraid, I always encourage them to join but it's just the fear factor, to me, big small or any camera would get what you want in the image. Sad to say, many here think otherwise, Sigh. Others shun away because of gender reasons blah blah blah. Glad you enjoyed the outing by KT, do join more, he's capable and will teach you many more things you never knew about shooting.


    ERM... my avatar? Lucky shot. Hee.
    Actually being ignored got nothing to do with your equipment. The first few times I joined, everyone else knows each other and I feel like an outsider and was ignored... maybe not intentionally. Maybe its just the fact that I'm a stranger and conversations are limited to "what do you do" and "where do you stay" type... and seeing everyone knows each other, I felt hesitant to butt in for fear of being ignored (ironically I was already being ignored). But for the saving grace, organizer sometimes took effort in integrating me with the crowd. I'm not saying that most ignore me, but human nature tends to linger on familiar things or faces. So there it is... I have met a few CSers here and they are quite nice but I still feel uncomfortable joining KT, not because of pride or the group, but because I'm a bit jaded to go through the whole cycle all over again.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ykia
    Hi Kaywalk,

    Nice of you to join us last Sunday for the P Ubin outing. Too bad I could not go to the island itself, but I'm glad to have had the chat with you over breakfast.

    Wow, it did not occur to me how much "2nd thinking" you had put into joining us, and I really hope that KT's outing was a turning point for you in perception changing .
    Hi ykia, if KT's outing was a turning point for me, it's all because of you!

    The task looked simple: Spot over 20 camera-wielding people early morning in sleepy Changi Village. They would be sitting near the nasi lemak stall. Even I can't screw that up, right?

    The reality: I was faced with a choice of a group near the nasi lemak stall with fishing rods (they happened to be Malay), and a group FAR AWAY from the nasi lemak stall with black backpacks. But ONE MAN (movie trailer voiceover, hehe) in the backpack group was examining a camera. So I circled around the hawker centre twice like a foolish vulture, and faced my options: Approach them, or chicken out and go solo shooting in Changi Village.

    So ykia, thanks for being the one holding the camera, and it was a pleasure to meet you. Your friendliness really helped. Actually, not much "2nd thinking" was required. Thinking about the worst-case scenario is only to put the whole thing in perspective. So I can move on to think: Free that day? Free. Want to go? Yes. Put name down? OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by ykia
    So, to me, there will always be undesirable comments made and there will always be great outings to meet up with the real (as oppose to on-line) personalities of those behind the Avatars, and the choice is within me to take the risk and discover it .
    Well said! I agree completely.

    The ladies who have posted saying they wanted to go, but when they realised there would mostly be guys, they decided to forget it, haven't actually mentioned what exactly about that put them off.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by dawgbyte77
    Actually being ignored got nothing to do with your equipment. The first few times I joined, everyone else knows each other and I feel like an outsider and was ignored... maybe not intentionally. Maybe its just the fact that I'm a stranger and conversations are limited to "what do you do" and "where do you stay" type... and seeing everyone knows each other, I felt hesitant to butt in for fear of being ignored (ironically I was already being ignored).
    Well, I generally keep to myself and don't really have any skill at chatting with strangers. I think in the case of the Pulau Ubin outing, the group was huge, and some said they only knew one or two other people, I felt much better knowing that.

    I didn't have any expectation that there'll be deep conversations. I didn't even recognise the DSLR bodies the others were carrying, so no techtalk for me! I'm the kind who sees SLRs mostly at friends' weddings, hee. I didn't ask to touch any of them either. If something went wrong, I don't think I can compensate even if I sell everything I have!

    I just had fun being there, taking pictures while having some company. The big group worked for me that way. When the pictures came out, I could learn how we all saw the same things, but saw them differently to take different pictures. I have a lot to learn, even putting aside equipment, so the variety of perspectives is valuable.

    What you mentioned is valid and it's on my mind also. The biggest tussle is between that and the "I want to go" feeling. As long as you make your choice happily, it's all good!

    I feel quite strange to "bare my soul" on this subject. I guess I'm moved by Adam Goi's efforts to understand all this and encourage us to go to gatherings, and this is my lousy way of thanking him and helping in his efforts.

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    Default Re: Follow-up to "Why don't I join the photoshoots?"

    Greetings, Kaywalk and Glennyong.

    While this is a kinda self-plug, but there are non-equipment-based outings. And some history dating as far back as http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthrea...t=14609&page=6. The AG (Anything Goes) series of outings are 100% non-equipment-based. Regardless of toycam (we've had a Benq and a phone cam before), lens (beat-up sub-$100 tamron on a S2 Pro) or skill levels (had absolute newbies... then), it is open to ALL. Only drawback is the limited number of places. But that is to maintain the quality and the attention we can give to everyone.

    Feel free to do a really way-back search. Here is the very very first official outing.
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=34397
    And a few others in the later months...
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=43699
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=78653
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=90523
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=95172
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=144841
    At the last AG100 we had someone to share with us B&W film tips too. And half of the outings I bring a prosumer toycam, so gear really does not matter.
    So anyone is welcome, just got to PM me early...

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