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Thread: I hate Mac

  1. #121
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Aiyoh. Windows NT 3.1 has this feature since 1993. Windows 2000 has it in 1999, before MacOS X (which came out in Mar 2001) and XP makes it even easier, switch between users when >1 account is logged on...

    FYI, unlike all unix derivatives, NT-based derivatives can have individual rights and permission to objects and actions whereas unix and the derivation is all or nothing; root or user. Before all the comments of "can and cannot" comes out, please read up.
    Wah so chim also dunno what you talking about. Read up also don't understand.

    What NT? Simi lai? .......unix and the derivation is all or nothing......????? Can put into plain simple English....???

  2. #122
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Ah ha! Waiting for someone to spring the trap Since it is ESPN, I shall have no problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Linux had it long ago too... switching users means requiring to login ad admin, makes the changes then bail out.
    Nope. Unix (which predates Linux) has su. NT has su from its Resource kit as well. For switching users on XP, you just choose whom you wish to log in as, type passwd and viola! Both users are logged in at the same time. I'm not sure OS X can do it though there is nothing stopping it from doing (X Window+Unix multiuser...)

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    For Mac OS X, Linux, all you need is just to 'sudo' or 'su -' and you have all the administrative powers.
    "Run as" as well as su from the reskit. On Win2k onwards, IIRC, you can even delegate (allow another user to do things for you for a limited time) and impersonate (run functions as someone else temporarily while your base security rights don't change).


    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Not true, Unix has groups, users and root. You can allocate the rights and permissions to objects via chown and chmod. You can set read-write-execute on directories, files and you can specify users, groups to allocate the permissions to.
    Let me give you a simple example. Let say we have 4 groups and 5 users. Groups are: STG-over21, STG-under21, male, females. Users are: ESPN, FB, PFC, KL, Watcher.

    If I have 1000 files, I can set 1 file that all male and females and STG-under21 can read, but STG-over21 and KL cannot, another file that Watcher can do anything but ESPN can read, write, change but not delete. I can let FB, PFC and Watcher use the modem, but only Watcher can add new ones. Tell me how to do that on unix.
    Last edited by Watcher; 19th August 2005 at 01:45 AM.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    Also it's good security to prompt. If windows prompted, then I won't be having my PC infiltrated with bloatware/spyware.
    agree...I have installed so many anti-spyware, scanner, anti-virus scanner and even 3rd party software to prevent unauthorised installation of popup and tool bar...

    i even tried to set the account to Users, installation of program should not be allowed, but those spyware, virus, popup still manage to come in

    now i just ghost the whole OS into CD...anything wrong i just ghost it back instead of reinstall windows all over
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  4. #124

    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Ah ha! Waiting for someone to spring the trap Since it is ESPN, I shall have no problem...


    Nope. Unix (which predates Linux) has su. NT has su from its Resource kit as well. For switching users on XP, you just choose whom you wish to log in as, type passwd and viola! Both users are logged in at the same time. I'm not sure OS X can do it though there is nothing stopping it from doing (X Window+Unix multiuser...)


    "Run as" as well as su from the reskit. On Win2k onwards, IIRC, you can even delegate (allow another user to do things for you for a limited time) and impersonate (run functions as someone else temporarily while your base security rights don't change).



    Let me give you a simple example. Let say we have 4 groups and 5 users. Groups are: STG-over21, STG-under21, male, females. Users are: ESPN, FB, PFC, KL, Watcher.

    If I have 1000 files, I can set 1 file that all male and females and STG-under21 can read, but STG-over21 and KL cannot, another file that Watcher can do anything but ESPN can read, write, change but not delete. I can let FB, PFC and Watcher use the modem, but only Watcher can add new ones. Tell me how to do that on unix.
    You can do all specific actions with sudo together with cron or anacron. ACLs have been in development since 97 for linux and the other unix variants. Freebsd 5x supports this and linux kernels since 2.4.x. They and windows follow the posix.1e standards which describe these functionality.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Ah ha! Waiting for someone to spring the trap Since it is ESPN, I shall have no problem...
    What? You puny MS user trying to fight me?


    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Nope. Unix (which predates Linux) has su. NT has su from its Resource kit as well. For switching users on XP, you just choose whom you wish to log in as, type passwd and viola! Both users are logged in at the same time. I'm not sure OS X can do it though there is nothing stopping it from doing (X Window+Unix multiuser...)
    su exists on Linux also. FreeBsd, RedHat, Mandrake etc. For XP, there seems to be a conflict, if you have programs that start up upon logging in, some of the applications will refuse to run twice like ICQ/iTunes.

    Just for replying sake, yes OS X supports fast user switching also, but for security reasons the Adminitrator account is disabled, only the first user registering with the machine is give administrator rights, which isn't even full, but will be able to modify the settings as prompted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    "Run as" as well as su from the reskit. On Win2k onwards, IIRC, you can even delegate (allow another user to do things for you for a limited time) and impersonate (run functions as someone else temporarily while your base security rights don't change).
    It's 'runas' well, it's only as good and far as it gets, firstly you need to execute the entire command in Command Prompt, I use it to update my anti-virus definitions when I'm an ordinary user on 2K. However, when I try to install s/w, the 'runas' command doesn't work that well anymore. I gave up using 'runas' after a while.



    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Let me give you a simple example. Let say we have 4 groups and 5 users. Groups are: STG-over21, STG-under21, male, females. Users are: ESPN, FB, PFC, KL, Watcher.

    If I have 1000 files, I can set 1 file that all male and females and STG-under21 can read, but STG-over21 and KL cannot, another file that Watcher can do anything but ESPN can read, write, change but not delete. I can let FB, PFC and Watcher use the modem, but only Watcher can add new ones. Tell me how to do that on unix.
    Read the reply above

  6. #126

    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    No need, cursor can also select the expose windows. I use my keyboard cursors to get to the window, press enter, it will activate that window.

    Very useful feature, try it when opening > 10 JPEGs in PS. You'll love it.
    Heh already figured that out...

  7. #127
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by shojibake
    You can do all specific actions with sudo together with cron or anacron. ACLs have been in development since 97 for linux and the other unix variants. Freebsd 5x supports this and linux kernels since 2.4.x. They and windows follow the posix.1e standards which describe these functionality.
    The POSIX and etc ACL on unix-based OS cannot deny, only permit.

    Also, on most if not all unix FS, there is no "D"elete flag, on RWX.

    The POSIX standard on Windows is a feature-restriction of what is available. The access control on Windows (NT-based) predates Unix as it is based on VMS which was created in the 60's while unix was only in the early 70's. VMS and Windows NT (and thus all modern versions of Windows) was created by the OS-deity, Dave Cutler.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    What? You puny MS user trying to fight me?
    I agree you VERY BIG SIZE

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    su exists on Linux also. FreeBsd, RedHat, Mandrake etc. For XP, there seems to be a conflict, if you have programs that start up upon logging in, some of the applications will refuse to run twice like ICQ/iTunes.
    This is application-specific. At program time, there is a flag to check if there is another instance. It is up to the programer to decide. If the capability is not there in the first place, I can't even start up >1 IE and other app. Blame the programmer.

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    It's 'runas' well, it's only as good and far as it gets, firstly you need to execute the entire command in Command Prompt, I use it to update my anti-virus definitions when I'm an ordinary user on 2K. However, when I try to install s/w, the 'runas' command doesn't work that well anymore. I gave up using 'runas' after a while.
    Again, blame it on lazy programmer/writer of installer. There is nothing in Windows that insist that you need admin rights, especially if you don't need registry access.

  9. #129

    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    agree...I have installed so many anti-spyware, scanner, anti-virus scanner and even 3rd party software to prevent unauthorised installation of popup and tool bar...

    i even tried to set the account to Users, installation of program should not be allowed, but those spyware, virus, popup still manage to come in

    now i just ghost the whole OS into CD...anything wrong i just ghost it back instead of reinstall windows all over
    That's the reason why MS is much better they have to be on the alert, you got to try their beta version of their latest 64bit OS you will know that the tiger is just a kitten in comparison.

  10. #130
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    The POSIX and etc ACL on unix-based OS cannot deny, only permit.
    Wait, ability to permit is also the same ability to deny what...

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Also, on most if not all unix FS, there is no "D"elete flag, on RWX.
    Why do you need a del flag? I never understood nor see a need, trashbin is just a storage folder for files you drag off the UNIX/Mac OS X desktop. I can easily modify the alias for 'rm' command to do that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    I agree you VERY BIG SIZE
    *Beep beep* Personal attack


    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    This is application-specific. At program time, there is a flag to check if there is another instance. It is up to the programer to decide. If the capability is not there in the first place, I can't even start up >1 IE and other app. Blame the programmer.
    Yeah, blame M$ programmers



    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    Again, blame it on lazy programmer/writer of installer. There is nothing in Windows that insist that you need admin rights, especially if you don't need registry access.
    Why blame the programmer, why not blame the over all design of the OS. The developers develop on the set of rules and platform to support. If you say it's developer, then why does Mac OS/Linux upon access to root/sysadmin's functions will still be able to pick up ACL controls and prompt accordingly for passwords

    I always had to log out of Win2K's ordinary user, to login as Administrator so that I can save my EyeOne Profile after calibration. If I had to do that on Mac OS X, accessing a system folder would prompt me for password.

    Hehe..

  11. #131
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by jopel
    That's the reason why MS is much better they have to be on the alert, you got to try their beta version of their latest 64bit OS you will know that the tiger is just a kitten in comparison.
    I've tried it. Nothing outstanding or anything that awed me.

  12. #132

    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by jopel
    That's the reason why MS is much better they have to be on the alert, you got to try their beta version of their latest 64bit OS you will know that the tiger is just a kitten in comparison.
    Keyword here is BETA.
    Have you wondered why commercial releases of MS OS is 1 generation behind Mac OS?
    64-bit Mac OS Tiger is already out on commercial release. What MS had done was to adapt Win XP to 64bit. We have to wait till 2007 for a fully fledged 64bit Longhorn. By 2007, we will have a new Mac OS (Lion?).
    Key point here is commercial release. It's no good having an advanced OS in beta stage when most of the world can't use it.
    Last edited by zod; 19th August 2005 at 11:38 AM.

  13. #133
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by zod
    Keyword here is BETA.
    We have to wait till 2007 for a fully fledged 64bit Longhorn. By 2007, we will have a new Mac OS (Lion?).
    leopard, will be out in 2006, just slightly earlier than longhorn (if longhorn is going to release on schedule )

    http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000137045772/

    11:04am PDT - Steve is back on now, restating the theme of this as Apple’s 3rd big transition. “It’s not gonna happen overnight. We’re making AWESOME machines right now” (Frequent comment in the press line: Will anyone buy one in the next year?) “When we meet again here next year, we will have products with Intel processors entering the market.” Next year he’ll show Leopard. One non-boilerplate truth: “The soul of a Mac is its operating system.” Plus the slick industrial design, of course.
    Last edited by Wai; 19th August 2005 at 11:39 AM.
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  14. #134
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by Wai
    leopard, will be out in 2006, just slightly earlier than longhorn (if longhorn is going to release on schedule )
    New OS X 10.5 is code named Simba.

  15. #135
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    I though Lion should be next.
    War is one of the most regrettable human activities.

  16. #136

    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Going with the tradition that MS always push back release dates, Leopard will be released before Longhorn. That will make Leopard 2 generations ahead of current OS Win XP.

    That is some food for thought.
    Last edited by zod; 19th August 2005 at 12:37 PM.

  17. #137

    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by Watcher
    The POSIX and etc ACL on unix-based OS cannot deny, only permit.

    Also, on most if not all unix FS, there is no "D"elete flag, on RWX.

    The POSIX standard on Windows is a feature-restriction of what is available. The access control on Windows (NT-based) predates Unix as it is based on VMS which was created in the 60's while unix was only in the early 70's. VMS and Windows NT (and thus all modern versions of Windows) was created by the OS-deity, Dave Cutler.
    For switching between users, use screen, but that's terminal only. Alternatively just login from different terminals like secureCRT. Or use one of those programs that allows the pc to function as a x windows workstation.

    Posix standards aren't always adhered or fully implemented, same with other open standards. I included the comment just to point out that most modern day OSes will be following standards, i.e. it doesn't matter what OS you use.

    To allow specific deletion of files, you can use sudo for that. Or alter group permissions on the directory containing the file.

  18. #138
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Wah, juz following this thread from 1 to page 7 had taught me lots about the Mac. I have juz changed platforms to the Mac and the first 3 days was a real headache. Almost wanted to get rid of this PowerBook G4 until I got ProImage to give me quick tutorial over dinner. He's good not only in teaching cam tricks. hehe .

    I think it takes time and a little help to understand Macs especially if you are a die hard Windows guy like me. I think it is well worth the change.

    BTW, I am using 10.4.2 OS X and to switch tabs, I have to use Apple + tab. Not sure about the rest of u guys.
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  19. #139
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    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Quote Originally Posted by shojibake
    For switching between users, use screen, but that's terminal only. Alternatively just login from different terminals like secureCRT. Or use one of those programs that allows the pc to function as a x windows workstation.
    Oh yes, I agree. I'm not disagree on this at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by shojibake
    Posix standards aren't always adhered or fully implemented, same with other open standards. I included the comment just to point out that most modern day OSes will be following standards, i.e. it doesn't matter what OS you use.

    To allow specific deletion of files, you can use sudo for that. Or alter group permissions on the directory containing the file.
    What I mean about the delete is this: I can give a person RWX permission but not Delete. Or I can give groups (of users) access to a resource, but to deny a specific user or a group of users permission.

  20. #140

    Default Re: I hate Mac

    Does MAC has server OS wanna upgrade my WIN2003

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