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Thread: Surveying of MRT Stations

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    In a nutshell, if its not a declared or gazetted security area, your intent to hurt or destroy has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt before they can confiscate.And this act of confiscation can only be used in conjunction with a breach of the existing laws governing the place.So, we can conclude that if your intent is not recognized to be a threat and objects in your possession are not as part of that "threat", then you are able to do as you please within the confines of this interpretation.

    Since the MRT is not a gazetted security area, it is shoot as you please, but eventually it will depend on whether that individual security officer suspects your intent and whether he can prove it.

    But as good photographers who are the extended eyes and ears, we can actually be mobile surveillance cameras
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  2. #82
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Actually, if we are still talking about the ISA, it has to be both a security area as well as creating a reasonable presumption that the person is acting in a manner prejudicial to public security or maintenance of public order.

    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    In a nutshell, if its not a declared or gazetted security area, your intent to hurt or destroy has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt before they can confiscate.And this act of confiscation can only be used in conjunction with a breach of the existing laws governing the place.So, we can conclude that if your intent is not recognized to be a threat and objects in your possession are not as part of that "threat", then you are able to do as you please within the confines of this interpretation.

    Since the MRT is not a gazetted security area, it is shoot as you please, but eventually it will depend on whether that individual security officer suspects your intent and whether he can prove it.

    But as good photographers who are the extended eyes and ears, we can actually be mobile surveillance cameras

  3. #83

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    tink the debate is going round in circles...

    BTW Gazzetted security area are such like military installation and petrol farms..etc. These areas, you wouldn't want to be caught with an unauthorised cam.... definately kena jia lat.

    But in the light of terrorism, there is another classification called "soft targets", these are hotels, pubs, MRT stations or any build-up area where public masses. For such places, the law is pretty grey if you look at point by point. The law cannot be all encompassing and thus subjected to the courts application of it's intent. And for this case, the key word is "suspect", as long as public officer "suspects" you, thery are pretty much covered to execute what is deemed necessary precaution.

    u refuse to co-operate... they might find you a "causing public nusience".

    Also.. tink this tread very OT liao.
    Last edited by CYRN; 11th August 2005 at 10:37 PM.
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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN
    tink the debate is going round in circles...

    BTW Gazzetted security area are such like military installation and petrol farms..etc. These areas, you wouldn't want to be caught with an unauthorised cam.... definately kena jia lat.

    But in the light of terrorism, there is another classification called "soft targets", these are hotels, pubs, MRT stations or any build-up area where public masses. For such places, the law is pretty grey if you look at point by point. The law cannot be all encompassing and thus subjected to the courts application of it's intent. And for this case, the key word is "suspect", as long as public officer "suspects" you, thery are pretty much covered to execute what is deemed necessary precaution.

    u refuse to co-operate... they might find you a "causing public nusience".

    Also.. tink this tread very OT liao.
    couldn't agree more

  5. #85

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    A very interesting discussion.

    Even if MRT stations are not specifically covered under ISA as a security area, as a responsible citizen taking photographs in such a sensitive area in light of the current situation - Singapore being a possible terrorist target - it never hurts to seek permission from the owner of the property; in this case SMRT (although you shouldn't be made to pay a fee to photographing the place for personal use).

    We should use some common sense, and play our part as responsible citizens. Total defence is the key to ensure safety and security of the nation.

    Whether or not security personnel has the authority to ask a photographer to delete the photographs/confisicate the film, this is another point of contention, but since we are in other people's property, we have to play by their rules - but still knowing our rights.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    OT: Give security personnels a break.

    I'll choose a MRT station with security guards doing their job (dont wish to argue about the word job) over a MRT station without any security guards and photographers/videographers freely shooting away any day.

    Are your photographes so "precious" that security should give way?


    Just open your mouth and ask, it wont kill you.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by Yildun
    OT: Give security personnels a break.

    I'll choose a MRT station with security guards doing their job (dont wish to argue about the word job) over a MRT station without any security guards and photographers/videographers freely shooting away any day.

    Are your photographes so "precious" that security should give way?


    Just open your mouth and ask, it wont kill you.
    No harm there.Professionalism and security.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ah Pao
    A very interesting discussion.

    Even if MRT stations are not specifically covered under ISA as a security area, as a responsible citizen taking photographs in such a sensitive area in light of the current situation - Singapore being a possible terrorist target - it never hurts to seek permission from the owner of the property; in this case SMRT (although you shouldn't be made to pay a fee to photographing the place for personal use).

    We should use some common sense, and play our part as responsible citizens. Total defence is the key to ensure safety and security of the nation.

    Whether or not security personnel has the authority to ask a photographer to delete the photographs/confisicate the film, this is another point of contention, but since we are in other people's property, we have to play by their rules - but still knowing our rights.
    And to add on...

    Ask nicely. And they'll reply in kind.
    Hostile confrontation will be received in kind as well.
    "Wonders of the Human Mind. Unfathomable to the highest degree."

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    The curcial thing here is to ask for permission. Once you tell them your intention then I think it should be no problem. I must say that I totally disagree that they have the right to ask you to delete your photograph but then again this is Singapore. Of course there are some over zealous security personnel who will act like a Gestapo and demand this and that from you but as long as you know your right and do not break any law then don't be afraid. Give a man a uniform and he will swear that the weight of the whole word is on his shoulders.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by jbma
    I must say that I totally disagree that they have the right to ask you to delete your photograph.
    Its written in established laws, so we can't really dispute that anyway. Though human rights are compromised here, however again, in our current state, nothing much to dispute, untill we have our very own activist for such.

    However, I am still committed to photograph the station, and yes, I have contact SMRT and they will respond me very shortly. If permission is however denied, then I will be closing the thread.
    Last edited by Slivester; 12th August 2005 at 09:27 PM.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by Yildun
    OT: Give security personnels a break.

    I'll choose a MRT station with security guards doing their job (dont wish to argue about the word job) over a MRT station without any security guards and photographers/videographers freely shooting away any day.

    Are your photographes so "precious" that security should give way?


    Just open your mouth and ask, it wont kill you.
    To come and think about it, they are still executors of their supervisors, and in this case, we are actually putting them in a tough position. First of all, I am quite sure they knew we are all Singaporeans, and that they do wish to be pleasant and yet maintain a stand of which they will appear appropriate to handle the situation.

    Who does not wish to impress their supervisors? And who will wish for a mishap to befall upon our dear country, and let alone the so refined MRT system?

  12. #92
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Hmm Silvester, did you find a new law/rule/regulation which we had not discussed earlier above? Would like to know what established laws you have found.

    By the way, as I have pointed out before, if its a national security issue, it would be weird if SMRT has the right to give you permission. SMRT is a private organisation and has no business giving permission exempting you from national security provisions (if assuming there are indeed such provisions). They are not the authorities enforcing these provisions.

    Cheers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slivester
    Its written in established laws, so we can't really dispute that anyway. Though human rights is compromised here, however again, in our current state, nothing much to dispute, untill we have our very own activist for such.

    However, I am still committed to photograph the station, and yes, I have contact SMRT and they will respond me very shortly. If permission is however denied, then I will be closing the thread.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Hmm Silvester, did you find a new law/rule/regulation which we had not discussed earlier above? Would like to know what established laws you have found.

    By the way, as I have pointed out before, if its a national security issue, it would be weird if SMRT has the right to give you permission. SMRT is a private organisation and has no business giving permission exempting you from national security provisions (if assuming there are indeed such provisions). They are not the authorities enforcing these provisions.

    Cheers
    Hi vince123123, nobody said the new law/rule/regulation relates to national security...why are you bringing that in again?

    Anyway, with the recent London Subway blasts and the JI incident a few years back, common sense can tell all of us that photographing MRT stations can be a touchy issue. It is only wise to seek permission before carrying out any such photography. Clear yourself from any ill-intention and cover your ass by seeking permission, and nobody can fault you.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Ah Pao; 13th August 2005 at 01:33 AM.

  14. #94
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    because silvester said that it is "written in established laws". I'm wondering what those established laws are - whether he meant s48 of the ISA that we were discussing a while back, or some other law. I'm not sure what you mean by your statement though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ah Pao
    Hi vince123123, nobody said the new law/rule/regulation relates to national security...why are you bringing that in again?

  15. #95

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Hmm Silvester, did you find a new law/rule/regulation which we had not discussed earlier above? Would like to know what established laws you have found.
    I was referring to the part in the ISA, of which cites that a police officer can at times of an isolated situation, confiscates your personal belonging for checks. Refer to my previous post, http://forums.clubsnap.com/showpost....4&postcount=78.

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    By the way, as I have pointed out before, if its a national security issue, it would be weird if SMRT has the right to give you permission. SMRT is a private organisation and has no business giving permission exempting you from national security provisions (if assuming there are indeed such provisions). They are not the authorities enforcing these provisions.

    Cheers
    Received my long waited call, and apparently the process seemed more complicated than I thought. In order to get the so-called "permit", I must state the reason for filming, of which must be for a course, not simply "personal interest". Instead, I was advised that photographing a MRT station have never been restricted, just that should one be asked to hand over their equipments for check, just comply and most of time, it will be fine after some checks and questions.

    So, there actually exist no such "permit" for personal photographing. Well in addition, she told me that, there might be permits issued by the LTA or MDA (she was quite uncertain) for film-makers or photographers using a MRT station as a scene for commerical purposes. Somehow after these episodes, a MRT station do not seem quite "for the public" to me.
    Last edited by Slivester; 13th August 2005 at 08:47 AM.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by Slivester
    I was referring to the part in the ISA, of which cites that a police officer can at times of an isolated situation, confiscates your personal belonging for checks. Refer to my previous post, http://forums.clubsnap.com/showpost....4&postcount=78.



    Received my long waited call, and apparently the process seemed more complicated than I thought. In order to get the so-called "permit", I must state the reason for filming, of which must be for a course, not simply "personal interest". Instead, I was advised that photographing a MRT station have never been restricted, just that should one be asked to hand over their equipments for check, just comply and most of time, it will be fine after some checks and questions.

    So, there actually exist no such "permit" for personal photographing. Well in addition, she told me that, there might be permits issued by the LTA or MDA (she was quite uncertain) for film-makers or photographers using a MRT station as a scene for commerical purposes. Somehow after these episodes, a MRT station do not seem quite "for the public" to me.
    but but.. I was stopped when I tried to setup my tripod in punggol station...trying to take the ticketing machine

    The station staff told mi photography not allowed in the station.
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  17. #97

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN
    but but.. I was stopped when I tried to setup my tripod in punggol station...trying to take the ticketing machine

    The station staff told mi photography not allowed in the station.
    Do what you want and don't get caught
    dont think there is a sign that says no photography, or get someone to pose to divert the attention so far no one was stopped from taking innocent photos.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by CYRN
    but but.. I was stopped when I tried to setup my tripod in punggol station...trying to take the ticketing machine

    The station staff told mi photography not allowed in the station.
    i was told on 21/08/2005 that no photography was allowed in the station when i was reviewing the pics that i took earlier. i didnt argue with them, but have an urge to send an email requesting them to put up the no-photography sign in every train and mrt.

  19. #99
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Not having a sign does not prevent them from stopping you from taking photographs INSIDE the train or station.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSS_2
    i was told on 21/08/2005 that no photography was allowed in the station when i was reviewing the pics that i took earlier. i didnt argue with them, but have an urge to send an email requesting them to put up the no-photography sign in every train and mrt.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Not having a sign does not prevent them from stopping you from taking photographs INSIDE the train or station.
    So point being? u going to do exact opposite what the "no photography" sign might indicates or disregards what a group of armed police going to tell u and try your luck?

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