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Thread: Surveying of MRT Stations

  1. #61

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    In this case, then your only recourse is hope that the police never give you a statement or proof of confiscation.That would make it a tricky situation, especially if you are assumed to have given him the card without any acknowledgement of his receipt.

    Not to be anal, but sometimes its the laws that are hindering real anti-terror work.Think about it.
    precisely, that's why laws in the US for example are being revised to give security forces more of a free hand to deal with terror suspects. it's a double-edged sword.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  2. #62
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Nope I am not changing my stand.

    I am saying that MRT stations are not "security areas" for the purposes of s48 of the Internal Security Act. The term "security area" is a specific definition used in the ISA, not a general term as construed by you. I fail to understand why an area, which is not a "security area" under s48 of the ISA cannot have security personnel? Strange interpretation or deduction.

    So if a private condominium is for example, not a security area under s48 of the ISA, does this mean that there is no need for security guards in that condominium?

    Perhaps you may want to rethink your deductions or logic. It is sometimes a great leap from one point to another.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    it's very simple really, vince. either MRT stations are security areas, or they are not. are you changing your stand again?

    we are having a logical discussion here. you state that MRT stations are not security areas. i add (logically) that since MRT stations are not security areas (according to you), then security personnel will not be required in MRT stations. what has that got to do with my beliefs against terrorism? in fact you are to be thanked for giving us this excellent news from your ISD officer!

  3. #63
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    The name or identity or even if the ISD can attest that MRT stations are not security areas doesn't help you if you are trying to assert rights against personnel who try to stop you. The ISA is but only ONE piece of legislation and the ISD is but only ONE regulatory department.

    Since you've unearthed all those stuff we have discussed, why not scour and see if there are any other legislation/rules/laws which covers this issue. You may find something which we can then discuss.

    Just because this issue does not fall under the ISA doesn't mean that it is legal or illegal and there may be other legislation/rules/laws which deal with it. I've already stated this point before anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    have more faith in vince lah. i'm sure he will share this precious information with us photography enthusiasts.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by Klose
    I suggest you seek permission first. If I was one of those nsfs doing POI duty or guarding MRT stations I will demand that you delete all your pictures.
    heh..delete first then recover them when you get home lor..keke...

  5. #65
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    hee hee hee, I like this cheeky answer!!

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree
    heh..delete first then recover them when you get home lor..keke...

  6. #66

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Nope I am not changing my stand.

    I am saying that MRT stations are not "security areas" for the purposes of s48 of the Internal Security Act. The term "security area" is a specific definition used in the ISA, not a general term as construed by you. I fail to understand why an area, which is not a "security area" under s48 of the ISA cannot have security personnel? Strange interpretation or deduction.

    So if a private condominium is for example, not a security area under s48 of the ISA, does this mean that there is no need for security guards in that condominium?

    Perhaps you may want to rethink your deductions or logic. It is sometimes a great leap from one point to another.
    well, i think we can agree to disagree about the security area issue. i'm not convinced by your arguments as much as you are not convinced with mine.

    Last edited by zaren; 11th August 2005 at 03:27 PM.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  7. #67

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    To clear things up, I did not "exclude" wordings. I've summarised it rather than vomit out the entire sections (s58-62 would take up lots of space in full). I did not miss out any important points and s60(1) has already been covered in the summary of s60 in the previous post.
    uh huh, your exclusion of the word "terrorist" in your summary of S60(2) is just an oversight.
    Last edited by zaren; 11th August 2005 at 03:30 PM.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  8. #68

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Since you've unearthed all those stuff we have discussed, why not scour and see if there are any other legislation/rules/laws which covers this issue. You may find something which we can then discuss.
    why is there a need for this? you have already proved your case conclusively, no?
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  9. #69

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    So if a private condominium is for example, not a security area under s48 of the ISA, does this mean that there is no need for security guards in that condominium?
    a condo is a security area, that's why there are security guards there. you won't want possible terrorists hiding inside the condo making bombs, would you?
    Last edited by zaren; 11th August 2005 at 03:49 PM.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  10. #70

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Just because this issue does not fall under the ISA doesn't mean that it is legal or illegal and there may be other legislation/rules/laws which deal with it.
    so after all this discussion, you are still NOT SURE whether taking unauthorised survey photogaphs of a key installation is legal or illegal?

    despite several eye-witness accounts and personal testimonies of clubsnappers in this forum, you are still NOT SURE?

    maybe you need to call a police officer this time.

    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  11. #71

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by seng44
    I think it's ok to take photos, especially at that 2 stations that you mention. If you still find it uneasy, then just ask premission from the station control in charge. They willn't reject to your request.
    In previous occasions when I took photographs in Changi Airport, the latest being on 4 June 2005 and 7 July 2005, a SMRT guard walks past me and said nothing. However I took the liberty to apporach one of the guards and he assured me that there are no restrictions in photographing the stations as long as he finds my motives decent.

    Just a couple of years ago, I came across an article in which stated that any law enforcer is at all times, not entitled to the power to confiscate or demand any actions to be done if the law enforcer has at that point of time, no evidence or whatsoever to demand the subject to do so. The law enforcer may however, demand to check the possesions of the subject and arrest or confiscate the object if the law enforcer deem the object a threat to the public.

    That is of course, the entire world have changed quite much since then.

    And frankly, just 2 days away from the forum, and I find my thread full of interesting topics.
    Last edited by Slivester; 11th August 2005 at 03:54 PM.

  12. #72
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    As I have said before, a "security area" as defined in the ISA (and in s48) is a specific definition and term. A condo may have security guards, but it is not a security area within the definition of the Internal Security Act. When I am talking about security area, I am referring to the specific definition in the ISA, not the phrase security area as used in everday speech. I've said this a few times already.

    If you still wish to impute your own meaning of security area into the meaning of the words "security area" as used and defined in the ISA, well I suppose then that would be your prerogative.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    a condo is a security area, that's why there are security guards there. you won't want possible terrorists hiding your condo making bombs, would you?

  13. #73

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by Slivester
    In previous occasions when I took photographs in Changi Airport, the latest being on 4 June 2005 and 7 July 2005, a SMRT guard walks past me and said nothing. However I took the liberty to apporach one of the guards and he assured me that there are no restrictions in photographing the stations as long as he finds my motives decent.
    precisely. as long as your actions are not suspicious, you will not be stopped by the guards. however, if you are carrying out a detailed photographic survey of the MRT station, that could be construed as suspicious activity by the security forces.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  14. #74
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    I think you need to refer back to the first page. I asked you a question, you answered the question, and then we engaged in discussion. I'm not sure why you shifted the onus on me to provide you with the answer when in fact, all I was doing was questioning the basis of your initial answer.

    There is a need for "this" because after our discussions, the conclusion was that the ISA may not apply. Other rules or laws may apply which we are not aware of yet. I think you see things in too much of black and white, and the ISA isn't the only legislation around.

    I am merely interested in finding out if there is a written support for your answers. If your answer is based on personal experiences or experiences of others, then that should be the answer, and not a blind quoting of Sections or Acts (one of which does not even exist to my knowledge).

    Since you are SO SURE, then why don't you state the position for us conclusively with adequate support. I never professed to have the answer, and you clearly act like you do.

    Hope we can avoid any more snide remarks and discuss this issue objectively. Barbs thrown do not aid in furtherance of the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    why is there a need for this? you have already proved your case conclusively, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    so after all this discussion, you are still NOT SURE whether taking unauthorised survey photogaphs of a key installation is legal or illegal?

    despite several eye-witness accounts and personal testimonies of clubsnappers in this forum, you are still NOT SURE?

    maybe you need to call a police officer this time.

    Last edited by vince123123; 11th August 2005 at 05:54 PM.

  15. #75
    Senior Member +evenstar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Af far as I'm concerned, I was told that security guards / officers DO NOT have the right to demand that you delete your phots / confiscate your film.

    I was even approached by police officers outside esplanade while shooting the outdoor stage and they told me, "you'll have to get permission to shoot at the buildings." All I needed to say was, "I've approached the management and was told that for personal use, I do not need to get permission." The officer looked taken aback for a while and he could only mumble, "Oh, okay" and left...
    eat. drink. shoot

  16. #76
    vince123123
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Good one, it looks like we now have a good spread of experiences, so I'm not sure if the statement by "Zaren" saying that "despite several eye-witness accounts and personal testimonies of clubsnappers in this forum, you are still NOT SURE?".

    More experiences would be welcomed. Again please keep snide remarks out of this so that e can all discuss objectively and gain more knowledge.

    By the way, I'm inclined towards evenstar's approach personally, but lets see where this discussion akes us.


    Quote Originally Posted by +evenstar
    Af far as I'm concerned, I was told that security guards / officers DO NOT have the right to demand that you delete your phots / confiscate your film.

    I was even approached by police officers outside esplanade while shooting the outdoor stage and they told me, "you'll have to get permission to shoot at the buildings." All I needed to say was, "I've approached the management and was told that for personal use, I do not need to get permission." The officer looked taken aback for a while and he could only mumble, "Oh, okay" and left...

  17. #77

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Personal experience: Airport runway using video cam on tripod. About 45 minutes at various gates shooting the airplanes from 6am upwards. Eventually approached by police, went to police HQ and talked to the inspector of the day. He clarified the position, there is no wrong in what i'm doing, just wanted to make sure the footage and myself weren't suspect. Asked if i wanted to give up the footage and i said no. A most interesting 3 hours.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Anyway, as for the debate I have been trying to comprehend the past hour, it appears to centralise on the issue of “security area.” The ISA itself was introduced by the Malaysians in response to the insurgency of the Malayan communists, and Singapore acquires the ISA when we became the 12th state.

    The ISA itself was passed to curb terrorism, and thus is in direct concern with the ISD, and in this case, ”security area” refers to any public area that is subjected to security scrutiny, and only when formally declared and recognised as such by the President. (This is based on an interpretation a close of mine who recently did a research on the security measures Singapore have taken since independence for his CME project.)

    If a photographer is detained or photographs (whether digital or film) is obtained from him with or without consent, ISA will interpret the photographs as a subversive document, of which will be subjected to investigation. Such documents are seen as a tool to undermine the existence of the government, and so a threat to the public. If a police officer or guard suspects of your motive during your photography session, the law enforcer may with or without a warrant, or with or without an established finding of the evident, obtain and gain possession of the photographs. In addition, if he deems the photographs a breach to the security regulations, he may detain or arrest you.

    However, you will not be determined as a terrorist if you do not posses any weapon that can cause variable damage to human or the public property. Although I did heard that lawmakers are starting to define any objects that can lead to an ultimate loss of life and damage to the public, considered a weapon, and thus anyone in posses of that “object” will be considered a terrorist.

  19. #79
    Senior Member +evenstar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by Slivester
    However, you will not be determined as a terrorist if you do not posses any weapon that can cause variable damage to human or the public property. Although I did heard that lawmakers are starting to define any objects that can lead to an ultimate loss of life and damage to the public, considered a weapon, and thus anyone in posses of that “object” will be considered a terrorist.
    Oh no...my 1D II can kill if I whack it over your head...so does my monopod, tripod, big lens.. Can't bring them out anymore
    eat. drink. shoot

  20. #80

    Default Re: Surveying of MRT Stations

    Quote Originally Posted by +evenstar
    Oh no...my 1D II can kill if I whack it over your head...so does my monopod, tripod, big lens.. Can't bring them out anymore
    Weapon as in one that could cause widespread disruption, though if they want, they may reason your equipment as a potential threat to the public.

    And I am not so sure about the statement as well, might be rebuked by the government, but who knows.
    Last edited by Slivester; 11th August 2005 at 09:32 PM.

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