Surveying of MRT Stations

[Slivester]

I am planning to photograph some of avant-grade MRT stations in Singapore, such as the Changi Airport and HarbourFront stations.

I have much problems to photograph in public places alone, so if there is anyone who is interested, please do PM me.

That will be this Saturday, 13 August 2005.

[John Teoh]

Originally Posted by Slivester I am planning to photograph some of avant-grade MRT stations in Singapore, such as the Changi Airport and HarbourFront stations. I have much problems to photograph in public places alone, so if there is anyone who is interested, please do PM me. That will be this Saturday, 13 August 2005.

Sound fun but did you get permission from SMRT?

Cheers
John

[Klose]

Originally Posted by Slivester I am planning to photograph some of avant-grade MRT stations in Singapore, such as the Changi Airport and HarbourFront stations. I have much problems to photograph in public places alone, so if there is anyone who is interested, please do PM me. That will be this Saturday, 13 August 2005.

I suggest you seek permission first. If I was one of those nsfs doing POI duty or guarding MRT stations I will demand that you delete all your pictures.

[kahheng]

Originally Posted by Slivester I have much problems to photograph in public places alone, so if there is anyone who is interested, please do PM me.

How come?

You mean you need someone to "look at water"?

[frawr]

Originally Posted by Klose I suggest you seek permission first. If I was one of those nsfs doing POI duty or guarding MRT stations I will demand that you delete all your pictures.

well. what if its a film SLR.

[vince123123]

What right would you have to demand that the pictures be deleted? Is there any specific law which empowers these guards to do so?

Originally Posted by Klose I suggest you seek permission first. If I was one of those nsfs doing POI duty or guarding MRT stations I will demand that you delete all your pictures.

[zaren]

Originally Posted by vince123123 What right would you have to demand that the pictures be deleted? Is there any specific law which empowers these guards to do so?

internal security act.

anti-terrorism act.

[jsbn]

Originally Posted by zaren internal security act. anti-terrorism act.

Bullseye.

Its best to have a written authorisation lest over-zealous security personnel approach u.

Black and white, all powerful.

[Klose]

Originally Posted by frawr well. what if its a film SLR.

Confiscate the contents

Originally Posted by vince123123 What right would you have to demand that the pictures be deleted? Is there any specific law which empowers these guards to do so?

My M-16/SAR-21 can provide some persuasion

but seriously i wouldnt do that to a fellow photog unless the guy holding the camera seems to be taking possible escape routes, where the trash cans are etc etc and behaving rather suspiciously

[mohgui]

Originally Posted by Klose Confiscate the contents My M-16/SAR-21 can provide some persuasion but seriously i wouldnt do that to a fellow photog unless the guy holding the camera seems to be taking possible escape routes, where the trash cans are etc etc and behaving rather suspiciously

if you'd notice, there isn't any trash cans to be found in MRT stations...

[vince123123]

You sure there's such an Act as the Anti-Terrorism Act?

As for the ISA, could you point me to the specific section that you are relying on? A preliminary review on my part doesn't seem to reveal any such anti-photography and confiscating of film provisions, in relation to MRT stations.

Originally Posted by zaren internal security act. anti-terrorism act.

[vince123123]

Heh then I think some time in jail or court martial for misuse of arms would also persuade you otherwise

Originally Posted by Klose My M-16/SAR-21 can provide some persuasion but seriously i wouldnt do that to a fellow photog unless the guy holding the camera seems to be taking possible escape routes, where the trash cans are etc etc and behaving rather suspiciously

[zaren]

Originally Posted by vince123123 As for the ISA, could you point me to the specific section that you are relying on? A preliminary review on my part doesn't seem to reveal any such anti-photography and confiscating of film provisions, in relation to MRT stations.

66. —(1) When on duty any police officer or any member of the security forces or any person who is authorised in writing to do so by the officer in charge of a division, may without warrant and with or without assistance stop and search any vehicle, vessel, train, aircraft or individual, whether in a public place or not, if he suspects that any article or material being evidence of the commission of an offence under this Part is likely to be found in such vehicle, vessel, train, aircraft or on such individual, and may seize any article or material so found.

[NiVleK]

I was from the police force and I can assure you that any police officers on patrol have the proper authority under law to demand you delete any pictures taken of certain key installments in Singapore. If it is film, too bad, the whole roll will be confiscated.

[seng44]

I think it's ok to take photos, especially at that 2 stations that you mention. If you still find it uneasy, then just ask premission from the station control in charge. They willn't reject to your request.

[vince123123]

The precondition to the search powers is that the "article or material" being seized, must be such that is "evidence of the commission of an offence", ie there must have been an offence committed contrary to Part III of the ISA and then the police can seize the materials if they are evidence of such an offence. Can I ask if you can help enlighten us on where it says that the photographing of an MRT station is the commission of an "offence" contrary to the ISA?

Originally Posted by zaren 66. —(1) When on duty any police officer or any member of the security forces or any person who is authorised in writing to do so by the officer in charge of a division, may without warrant and with or without assistance stop and search any vehicle, vessel, train, aircraft or individual, whether in a public place or not, if he suspects that any article or material being evidence of the commission of an offence under this Part is likely to be found in such vehicle, vessel, train, aircraft or on such individual, and may seize any article or material so found.

[eikin]

SMRT and SBS Transit are commercial entities, the stations may be public spaces but ownership is not public. i believe they still have the rights to stop anyone from taking photographs if they want to. unless you photograph the structures while standing on a public pavement outside the stations.

[zaren]

Originally Posted by vince123123 The precondition to the search powers is that the "article or material" being seized, must be such that is "evidence of the commission of an offence", ie there must have been an offence committed contrary to Part III of the ISA and then the police can seize the materials if they are evidence of such an offence. Can I ask if you can help enlighten us on where it says that the photographing of an MRT station is the commission of an "offence" contrary to the ISA?

when it comes to fighting terrorism, you do not wait until the bomb explodes, you do everything possible to stop suspected terrorist activity before innocent lives are lost.

when the 15 suspected JI terrorists were arrested in singapore, searches of their homes revealed photo footage of target surveillance by the group. sure, there is no evidence that a shuttle bus and paya lebar airport WAS bombed. but there was evidence that such attacks were being planned.

when you fight terror, you rarely see the whole picture at once, but you get clues that you have to piece together to figure out if the terrorist threat is credible. unauthorised survey photographs of a key infrastructure installation may only be one piece of the jigsaw, but that piece can be a vital clue.

[vince123123]

good post, but doesn't really answer the question.

Originally Posted by zaren when it comes to fighting terrorism, you do not wait until the bomb explodes, you do everything possible to stop suspected terrorist activity before innocent lives are lost. when the 15 suspected JI terrorists were arrested in singapore, searches of their homes revealed photo footage of target surveillance by the group. sure, there is no evidence that a shuttle bus and paya lebar airport WAS bombed. but there was evidence that such attacks were being planned. when you fight terror, you rarely see the whole picture at once, but you get clues that you have to piece together to figure out if the terrorist threat is credible. unauthorised survey photographs of a key infrastructure installation may only be one piece of the jigsaw, but that piece can be a vital clue.

[zaren]

Originally Posted by vince123123 good post, but doesn't really answer the question.

since you still don't understand, let's try this again step-by-step with more excerpts from the Internal Security Act:

"48. —(1) If in the opinion of the President public security in any area in Singapore is seriously disturbed or threatened by reason of any action taken or threatened by any substantial body of persons, whether inside or outside Singapore, to cause or to cause a substantial number of citizens to fear organised violence against persons or property, he may, if he considers it to be necessary for the purpose of suppressing such organised violence, proclaim such area as a security area for the purposes of this Part."

Comment: Singapore as a whole is seriously threatened by terrorist organisations such as JI and Al Qaeda, and is designated as a security area. Key installations and high security areas such as the Airport and MRT stations are now subjected to patrols and checks by security forces.

"62. Without prejudice to the operation of Chapter V and Chapter XXIII of the Penal Code, any person who whether within or outside a security area, while any proclamation under section 48 is in force, attempts to commit, or does any act preparatory to the commission of an offence under this Part shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence under this Part."

Comment: Taking photographs of a key installation can be considered an act preparatory to the commission of a terrorist act which is an offence under the ISA. The case of the 15 JI suspects quoted earlier with evidence of photographs taken by them of shuttle bus movements as well as the layout of Paya Lebar Airport for target surveillance is a prime example.

"66. —(1) When on duty any police officer or any member of the security forces or any person who is authorised in writing to do so by the officer in charge of a division, may without warrant and with or without assistance stop and search any vehicle, vessel, train, aircraft or individual, whether in a public place or not, if he suspects that any article or material being evidence of the commission of an offence under this Part is likely to be found in such vehicle, vessel, train, aircraft or on such individual, and may seize any article or material so found."

Comment: Therefore, if you take unauthorised survey photographs of a key installation such as an MRT station, you may be asked to delete your photographs or have your film confiscated, if the security forces patrolling the area find your activity suspicious.