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Thread: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

  1. #21
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    actually TS start a thread weeks ago and delete it shortly, not sure why he did so but I just let it be, maybe he just want to "hoot" first than talk later,
    the outcome might be different if he didn't delete the thread, anyway that is his choice so should just learn live with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    Hi all, I am an amateur photographer, been shooting for ard 1 half year, but no experience working as a photographer.
    Recently, someone offered me a $10/hr rate for an event, and I carelessly accecpted it without thinking much, since I have 0 experience..


    Qn1. Is the rate justifiable ?
    Qn2. If not, how should I go about turning him down ?
    Qn3. What rates should I be looking at, when I have 0 Experience ?


    Thanks in Adv for all responses..
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
    www.benjaminloo.com | iStock portfolio

  2. #22

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Francis View Post
    We were all young and naive once Guys like this prey on the young and naive.

    Lesson learnt, get your card back and disassociate yourself from him. Don't lie or just not turn up -- that would affect many others, not just him. Tell him you are not taking the job. You didn't accept / sign an agreement / collect a deposit, did you?

    Let him come here and hire a photographer at an APPROPRIATE rate. I hate seeing ads asking for students / passionate amateurs. First sign of cheap Charlie clients.
    True, actually I consider myself pretty lucky on this one. Rather kena 'eaten' right now and learn a valuable first lesson, rather than in the future when handling even more important jobs then kena. It could turn out much worse for me if it happened when I'm dealing with a more important shoot in the future.
    I've already gotten back my card, and I will be turning up for the upcoming event, not for him, but because I pity his client. Will be disassociating with Person 'A' right after the job is done.
    From the meeting with person 'A' and his client, I understand that if she mishandles this V-VIP event, she may be exposed to the risk of getting Fired.. So, yeah.

    Thanks for your reply !




    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Like what catchlights said. What you went through is nothing compared to how others are ripping off other photographers.

    I recommend you expose this person here.

    Learn from this lesson and move on.
    Yes, I do understand that there are others who are getting ripped off much more than compared to me. But at the end of the day, what's wrong is still wrong. What initiated me to post this thread was how some people would go great lengths and use despicable tatics just to fuel their greed..
    It was something that I was warned about long ago, but my mistake, as I believed that it was non-existant in the 21st century. A great lesson learnt indeed, and I believe that someday, some fella like me who is just starting out into photography jobs will be able to learn a thing or two from this thread, and start being wary.

    Thank you for your reply.
    Last edited by Esper; 6th September 2014 at 02:31 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLoneRanger View Post
    perhaps there should be a "share my story" thread. it'd certainly be an interesting read
    +1. I too hope that there would be a sub-forum for similar experiences like mine. It promotes awareness and will prove to be very valuable to other photographers out there who are starting out doing whatever it is. Prevention is always better than cure..

    Thank you for your reply.



    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    actually TS start a thread weeks ago and delete it shortly, not sure why he did so but I just let it be, maybe he just want to "hoot" first than talk later,
    the outcome might be different if he didn't delete the thread, anyway that is his choice so should just learn live with it.

    Initially, I wasn't too sure if the rates were justifiable, or whether should I trust him because he hid all the details of the event beforehand until I've accecpted the offer. (Suspicious)
    I've decided to delete the thread because I thought that I might be over thinking things and such, and that I should calm down. But after the meeting with Person 'A' and his client + Handing over CF, then am I able to confirm my suspicion that he is indeed, what we would call, a "Screwed-Up Person". I then followed by starting the current thread. Hope it clarifies if needed.

    Thank you for your reply.
    Last edited by Esper; 6th September 2014 at 02:25 AM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Far far away's Avatar
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    So sad to hear this TS. Good to know that you got the CF back. And also good to know you are so big hearted to still continue to shoot for him. You are too nice.

    I suggest going for the shoot and shoot as much as possible. Then after the whole event, don't pass him the CF or any ****. Tell him that unless he pay up for everything and a bit more if you want, he is not getting the photos. Only after he pay up and apologise to your satisfaction, then pass him selected JPG photos untouched. Tell him he want better quality, he have to pay up at your rates and at your timing. If the customer call you up and demand to know what is happening, just tell him the truth that the guy is ripping you off and not paying you as promised. Let the customer out pressure on that pathetic guy.

    What goes around comes around. Let him have a taste of his own medicine.
    Nikon & Leica

  5. #25

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    e client has ur no. but did get fr him/her?
    If do, U may wanna talk to e client directly abt e whole incident n see how it goes. Be clear headed as to what u r gonna say. Better to pen it down.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Far far away View Post
    So sad to hear this TS. Good to know that you got the CF back. And also good to know you are so big hearted to still continue to shoot for him. You are too nice.

    I suggest going for the shoot and shoot as much as possible. Then after the whole event, don't pass him the CF or any ****. Tell him that unless he pay up for everything and a bit more if you want, he is not getting the photos. Only after he pay up and apologise to your satisfaction, then pass him selected JPG photos untouched. Tell him he want better quality, he have to pay up at your rates and at your timing. If the customer call you up and demand to know what is happening, just tell him the truth that the guy is ripping you off and not paying you as promised. Let the customer out pressure on that pathetic guy.

    What goes around comes around. Let him have a taste of his own medicine.

    I just feel that if I were to AWOL, it would be very, very unfair to the client. A fellow CS-er have found his CS nick based on the description provided, and I am positive about the identity behind Person 'A' on CS.
    I will be exposing him only after the whole saga ends tomorrow, to avoid any more of his bullshit.

    Thank you for your comment and recommendation.






    Quote Originally Posted by bla2e View Post
    e client has ur no. but did get fr him/her?
    If do, U may wanna talk to e client directly abt e whole incident n see how it goes. Be clear headed as to what u r gonna say. Better to pen it down.

    I do, but as for me, I'd rather not explain about the whole incident to the client. Or at least after job is completed.
    If I'd done that, she'd probably..

    (1) Pay me at a higher rate for my time, separately from Person 'A'. I may or not meet her expectations on the final images. Note that this is only my second Photography Job, and I'm shooting European CEO's of a internationally renowned Brand. If expectations are not met, client may even put me on blame, thus plan backfires on me.

    (2) Condemn person 'A', and comes Saga Pt. 2 where there will be more disputes between me and Person 'A'. I'd prefer a clean and hassle-free cut from Person 'A' after I've completed shooting for client.

    Thank you for your reply and recommendations.
    Last edited by Esper; 6th September 2014 at 12:03 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member richiemccaw1's Avatar
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    The thing about all these threads is that they dont serve a higher purpose to warn the others in the community if the TS doesnt name the alleged perpetrator. Hope you do the right thing dude.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    I am sure person A has a name or a CS nick

  9. #29

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by richiemccaw1 View Post
    The thing about all these threads is that they dont serve a higher purpose to warn the others in the community if the TS doesnt name the alleged perpetrator. Hope you do the right thing dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by sigg View Post
    I am sure person A has a name or a CS nick
    Yes he does, however I will only be exposing him of his true identity after the entire saga ends tomorrow to avoid any more crap from him.

    Thank you both for your replies.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    Yes he does, however I will only be exposing him of his true identity after the entire saga ends tomorrow to avoid any more crap from him. Thank you both for your replies.
    chances are he's already read this if he has an account? lol

  11. #31

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by eleveninth View Post
    chances are he's already read this if he has an account? lol
    Last Activity : 6th August 2014 01:45 AM
    Pretty sure, nope.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    1. where is your service contract?

    2. are the terms of service clear?

    3. are the clauses clear? eg no subcontracting clause (to prevent yourself from being cheap labor assigned by the Principal) ...

    4. no consideration no contract no obligation. he hasn't paid you any money towards the next assignment which you feel reluctant to take up... you are not obligated to take up.
    宁愿遇见丢失幼崽的母熊,也不愿碰上做蠢事的愚人

  13. #33
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    Last Activity : 6th August 2014 01:45 AM
    Pretty sure, nope.

    anyone can surf ClubSNAP without logging in, they only can't make any post and view the portrait and poses gallery section.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  14. #34
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    I just feel that if I were to AWOL, it would be very, very unfair to the client.
    That's a good attitude, imho. Show the client that you are trustworthy despite the disagreements with your immediate hiring party. Leave your name card with the client
    Another word of contract wisodm, which should become very clear to you by now: Contracts are not made for the case that everything runs well, but rather for the case when things go wrong.
    For yourself you can already draft a contract paper where you define the basics: services to be rendered, services excluded, what to submit/deliver, how and when, rates, payment due dates etc. The better you are prepared (and of course stick to this) the more some jokers will stay away because it makes it harder for them to con you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    I will be exposing him only after the whole saga ends tomorrow, to avoid any more of his bullshit.
    Stick to facts and let's hear the other party in this dispute.
    EOS

  15. #35

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    From the meeting with person 'A' and his client, I understand that if she mishandles this V-VIP event, she may be exposed to the risk of getting Fired.. So, yeah.
    From your description of person 'A', whoever hires him (God knows on what basis) probably did not give it much thought to begin with, and perhaps simply went for the vendor with the lowest quote? If they are eventually held responsible for the poor decision made, it's something they need to deal with, and learn from when sourcing for photography vendors in future.

    Would be interested to hear what you think person 'A's selling point is in engaging all these clients? Cheap rates? Persuasive talker?

    That said, I'd proceed cautiously. I'd be wary if a client starts spinning a 'sob story' so early in the relationship. It's a professional relationship, it'll help to keep feelings out of the way. Two possibilities. 1) If you help them out, do solid work, save their ass with their boss, you could potentially build a rewarding business relationship from this. 2) Before you know it, they think you're soft and easily manipulated, and you end up getting squeezed dry. In any case, all the best!

  16. #36

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by kandinsky View Post
    From your description of person 'A', whoever hires him (God knows on what basis) probably did not give it much thought to begin with, and perhaps simply went for the vendor with the lowest quote? If they are eventually held responsible for the poor decision made, it's something they need to deal with, and learn from when sourcing for photography vendors in future.

    Would be interested to hear what you think person 'A's selling point is in engaging all these clients? Cheap rates? Persuasive talker?

    That said, I'd proceed cautiously. I'd be wary if a client starts spinning a 'sob story' so early in the relationship. It's a professional relationship, it'll help to keep feelings out of the way. Two possibilities. 1) If you help them out, do solid work, save their ass with their boss, you could potentially build a rewarding business relationship from this. 2) Before you know it, they think you're soft and easily manipulated, and you end up getting squeezed dry. In any case, all the best!
    My thoughts exactly. Esper, I understand your decision to go ahead with the shoot so as not to sabo the client (the one who might get fired). However, do beware of multiplication of requests -- first it's just shoot, then they way you to DI, then maybe add company logo, etc. And also do be aware that some people are very good at manipulation -- now they seem to need your help and look pitiful; later if something goes wrong they throw you under the bus.
    Also, do be careful about 'spilling the beans' to the client. Do you really know the extent of their relationship? Bad-mouthing someone (even if you are truthful) may harm you more than them.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    TS, just FYI, companies pays students $8 to $10 per hour just to stand somewhere and hand out flyers (totally no skills nor experience needed)..... so yeah, $10 per hour is WAY TOO LOW for a job that requires you to bring a >$5,000 camera and apply your skills to complete the job. Considering there is so much pre and post event work (which is unpaid?!?!?), it's just not worth it.

    And for you to just work 2 hours a day is simply not worth the time and effort.

    Don't sell yourself (and other photographers) short by taking up such low paying jobs.
    Even if you want to gain experience, there have got to be better ways to do so.

    In your case, I would suggest you go recover your CF card, then tell the person straight in the face that you are not comfortable to continue your working relationship.
    Be professional about it, if you really want to be seen as a professional.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shizuma View Post
    1. where is your service contract?

    2. are the terms of service clear?

    3. are the clauses clear? eg no subcontracting clause (to prevent yourself from being cheap labor assigned by the Principal) ...

    4. no consideration no contract no obligation. he hasn't paid you any money towards the next assignment which you feel reluctant to take up... you are not obligated to take up.

    I do not have one, but will go about creating one soon. My mistake for not having done so even before I started looking out for jobs.

    Thank you for your advice..




    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    anyone can surf ClubSNAP without logging in, they only can't make any post and view the portrait and poses gallery section.

    Yup, I'm aware of this. Nonetheless, I believe that he hasn't yet noticed this thread.





    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    That's a good attitude, imho. Show the client that you are trustworthy despite the disagreements with your immediate hiring party. Leave your name card with the client
    Another word of contract wisodm, which should become very clear to you by now: Contracts are not made for the case that everything runs well, but rather for the case when things go wrong.
    For yourself you can already draft a contract paper where you define the basics: services to be rendered, services excluded, what to submit/deliver, how and when, rates, payment due dates etc. The better you are prepared (and of course stick to this) the more some jokers will stay away because it makes it harder for them to con you.
    Thanks Octa for your compliments. Sad to say that I personally do not have a name card or anything of that matter. Also, I don't think that I'd be able to 'properly' shoot an event this big anytime soon. It's merely my second paid assignment, and would be better to take it a step at a time as I progress and gain more experience. I also will be drafting a contract ASAP.

    Thank you for your insight and recommendations.
    Last edited by Esper; 6th September 2014 at 09:30 PM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by kandinsky View Post
    From your description of person 'A', whoever hires him (God knows on what basis) probably did not give it much thought to begin with, and perhaps simply went for the vendor with the lowest quote? If they are eventually held responsible for the poor decision made, it's something they need to deal with, and learn from when sourcing for photography vendors in future.

    Would be interested to hear what you think person 'A's selling point is in engaging all these clients? Cheap rates? Persuasive talker?

    That said, I'd proceed cautiously. I'd be wary if a client starts spinning a 'sob story' so early in the relationship. It's a professional relationship, it'll help to keep feelings out of the way. Two possibilities. 1) If you help them out, do solid work, save their ass with their boss, you could potentially build a rewarding business relationship from this. 2) Before you know it, they think you're soft and easily manipulated, and you end up getting squeezed dry. In any case, all the best!
    During the meeting with the client along with Person 'A', I've noticed how Person 'A' claims that he needs time to 'dig out' images to show client when asked for sample images, shot in previous events of such proportion, when he had his laptop with him. He then goes on with saying that it 100% wouldn't be a problem, and how has he shot for many other events of such scale.
    Client then proceeds to say that since Person 'A' charges higher than what others would have charged based on client's past experiences, this had better be good.
    Oh No.

    As cited above, I don't think I'm that experienced yet to shoot for events of such scale. Until then, we'll see how it goes.

    Thank you for your recommendation and advice.




    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Francis View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Esper, I understand your decision to go ahead with the shoot so as not to sabo the client (the one who might get fired). However, do beware of multiplication of requests -- first it's just shoot, then they way you to DI, then maybe add company logo, etc. And also do be aware that some people are very good at manipulation -- now they seem to need your help and look pitiful; later if something goes wrong they throw you under the bus.
    Also, do be careful about 'spilling the beans' to the client. Do you really know the extent of their relationship? Bad-mouthing someone (even if you are truthful) may harm you more than them.
    Noted. I will certainly be more careful in the future when faced with employers like that. I believe creating a solid draft contract as cited in my previous reply would offer enough protection to cover most of my rights/ass. However, I'm sure that there would be even worse crooks out there who may be able to outplay the system. Caution, caution, caution.

    After some consideration, I've decided not to spill the beans to the client as there is not a need for. Client should know better after collecting images at the end of the event, which would have the same effect as of me spilling the beans.

    Thank you for your insight and advice.
    Last edited by Esper; 6th September 2014 at 09:39 PM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by silencer13 View Post
    TS, just FYI, companies pays students $8 to $10 per hour just to stand somewhere and hand out flyers (totally no skills nor experience needed)..... so yeah, $10 per hour is WAY TOO LOW for a job that requires you to bring a >$5,000 camera and apply your skills to complete the job. Considering there is so much pre and post event work (which is unpaid?!?!?), it's just not worth it.

    And for you to just work 2 hours a day is simply not worth the time and effort.

    Don't sell yourself (and other photographers) short by taking up such low paying jobs.
    Even if you want to gain experience, there have got to be better ways to do so.

    In your case, I would suggest you go recover your CF card, then tell the person straight in the face that you are not comfortable to continue your working relationship.
    Be professional about it, if you really want to be seen as a professional.

    I'm aware.. It's just that I'd rather be putting my camera to work and gaining experience than compared to handing out fliers or similar jobs. The mistake here was that I went ahead and accecpted such a job just for the experience.. But well, I'll just take it as tuition fees paid and a valuable lesson learnt.
    I have already gotten back my CF Card, and I've planned to pass him the images for the event in the form of a CD/DVD to neglect the need to go back up to his house again to do whatever. That's time wasted, and no money earned.

    Thank you for your advice..

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