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Thread: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

  1. #1

    Exclamation Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    First off, let me introduce myself.

    I'm Esper, 19. Been an amateur photographer for 2 years.
    Understands Off Camera Lighting, Manual Camera Functions, PS and LR, Composition, and what not.
    I own 2 Nikon bodies, D600 and D800.
    I use a 24-120 F/4, and 70-200 F/2.8 for event photography.
    I fully understand the technical aspects to photography, but lack experience.
    My CF Card is a Sandisk Extreme Pro 16GB. Cost : $100++ (For my point later)
    Web (For Reference) : https://www.flickr.com/photos/espchoo/

    How it began..

    Some guy whom I have never contacted, called me and offered me a one day Event Job.
    Though I did search online and responded to a few recruitment advertisements,
    I don't know how had he seen my online portfolio before, and how he got to have my contacts.
    Nevertheless, I thought that this was a good opportunity to gain some exposure for experience.
    I explained to him that I have never worked as a Photographer before.
    He never spoke about the details of the event, and seemed to avoid talking about the details.
    He wanted me to travel to his place tomorrow, to give me "Training" on event photography and the details of the event.
    He offered me a $10 an hour for the event, which I stupidly accepted assuming that it was a stupidly basic event.

    Also, he told me about another event that would take place this Saturday/Sunday.
    When asked about the details, again, he claimed that he didn't know what were we going to be shooting. He claimed that he had no knowledge of details to the event.


    After a few days..


    Yesterday, I went to his place for his supposedly "Training" on event photography.
    He only showed me photos of events in the past that he had shot, mostly in schools. And to be honest, they were horrible.
    His photos had Ghosting Flashes, and bad Composition. Lighting was horribly off too. I'm starting to get worried now.
    He also requested for me to bring my D800 and necessary event equipment for testing, to make sure that they were in working order to shoot.
    He told me that he was using Nikon System cameras, so he should be familiar with the System.
    He claimed to have over 8 years of photography experience. And judging from the time of the events that he would take up, I'm certain he was a full time event photographer.
    However, I noticed from the moment when he picked up my camera, he had zero clue regarding the operations of the camera.
    Worst of all, I found out his primary camera turned out to be a D300 with the Kit Lens that came along with it. (7 Year Old Model)
    He also mentioned that he would only pay me $10 an hour, for I have zero experience.
    Since he had confirmed with the school that I was going to be there for the Event, I didn't had a choice but to shoot it.

    He also requested me to meet him on the day of Event,
    (1) As he would be brining a Laptop to download the images from my CF Card.
    (2) He would meet up with his client for Sat/Sun, and I would get to know the details.


    And so...

    So, today I had my first Job - As a freelancer doing event photography for Person 'A', a school event.
    I live in the East, and the job had me at 7.20am in the West.
    I have worked individually for a as-planned, 4 Hrs. There was a gap of 3 Hrs from when the School's Event ended, and when I'm supposed to meet him.
    I had to wait 2.5 Hrs for him to arrive. Upon his arrival, I passed him my CF Card, expecting him to download the images immediately to his Laptop.
    Amazingly, he said that he would need to bring my CF Card back home to download the images. (Refer to Price of CF Card above)
    He requested me to again, go over to his house the next day for reviewing of images that I took at the Event.
    I was so confused, and tired from waking up so early to be able to respond. I simply was dumbfounded.

    After a moment, his client arrived. Meeting started. (2.30pm)

    (1) I quickly realise that Person 'A' has already confirmed with his Client that I would be available for the Event on Sat/Sun based on the way Client speaks.
    (2) I quickly learnt that the Event is 2 Hrs on Sat, Full day on Sun. Travelling around Singapore with tourists.
    (3) Worse still, they are V-VIPs.
    (4) Factoring in that I'm only paid $10 an hour.
    (5) Person 'A' Claims that he would be able to shoot a group of 100 V-VIPs in a outdoor setting with only one Speedlite attached to hotshoe during Noon. (Impossible)
    (6) Person 'A' Does not mind a inexperienced photographer shooting for a V-VIP Event.
    (7) I realise I'm in the sh!t.

    Meeting Ends. (3.30pm)

    I have never said that I'd take up the job.
    Thus, put it simply,
    (1) Person 'A' is taking up Events in my name without my consent, at his own leisure, and at his own rate.
    (2) Person 'A' agreed on a Job that requires standards I'm sure he can't meet.

    After the meeting, he insisted that I follow him to places that we would be visiting to get a clearer idea of the shooting conditions.
    He said he'd pay me for my time.
    I agreed, and went ahead.

    Visiting Ended, going home. (4.30pm)
    Person 'A' now texts me, saying that
    (1) He would only be paying me only $10 for all of my time from 2pm to 4.30pm.
    (2) He has YET accepted another TWO HOUR job for me on Friday.
    However, I declined by giving an excuse that I was busy and wouldn't be in Singapore after going to his house to review the photos and retrieving my CF Card.
    He offers me $20 a hour now. I still refused.

    Total Time Spent : 8.5 Hrs. (Event 4Hrs + Wait 2.5Hrs + Visiting 2Hrs).
    Total Payroll : $50.
    Worst Part : Person 'A' Said that he would pay me altogether on Sunday, after I complete the Events altogether.



    I feel that I'm getting scammed and forced to work by Person 'A'.
    I feel that I'm being violated and ripped off my time.

    Why should I be working for someone who has no Passion for Photography, but only as a means for Profit ?
    No Compassion ?
    No Guilt ?
    For someone who doesn't bother investing in photography equipment to stay relevant to the industry ?
    For someone who doesn't give a damn at all ?



    Someone, please tell me what to do.

    Should I disappear after retrieving my CF Card ?
    Should I Argue and Claim the money for the time I've been slaved from him ?
    Should I Intentionally Give him '$10/hr type of shots' for the Big Event ?

    What are my options now ?


    Someday, I believe someone who went through the same experience as me would find this thread useful.
    So please do comment, Share your views and recommendations on what should I do to stop all this from getting worse..

    Thank You All..


    Mod Please move to correct forum if in incorrect forum section.
    Last edited by Esper; 4th September 2014 at 08:07 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member shierwin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Can give his nick if he is a clubsnap member. If got his phone number can do a search here to get his nick...
    You've have been taken for a ride...Just recover the CF card (you need it for the next shoot )...Get him to pay you the scrape $$... Agree to the next shoot and AWOL the fix.
    If you cannot resolve, take it as paid tuition fees for a lesson in business...
    Last edited by shierwin; 4th September 2014 at 07:53 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by shierwin View Post
    Can give his nick if he is a clubsnap member. If got his phone number can do a search here to get his nick...
    I believe that he is not a ClubSnap member, as I've noticed that he isn't that computer literate. I don't know how, but will try to navigate around the ClubSnap page to see if I can find a way to look up a username via a phone number.

    Quote Originally Posted by shierwin View Post
    You've have been taken for a ride...Just recover the CF card (you need it for the next shoot )...Get him to pay you the scrape $$... Agree to the next shoot and AWOL the fix.
    If you cannot resolve, take it as paid tuition fees for a lesson in business...
    I'm thinking if should I AWOL the V-VIP event.. I will be going to his house tomorrow to
    1) Recover my CF Card
    2) Argue to justify and try to get reimbursement the time I've wasted in terms of monies..

    If not, I may even post his particulars and let other first timer photographers be wary of him.. (Blacklist)
    But hor, now even Person 'A's client has my number leh.. Safe to AWOL without backfire in the future ?

    Thank you for you advice shierwin. Much appreciated...
    Last edited by Esper; 4th September 2014 at 08:22 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member richiemccaw1's Avatar
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    Default

    Ive PM you bro.

  5. #5
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    Why should I be working for someone who has no Passion for Photography, but only as a means for Profit ?
    No Compassion ?
    To make it blunt: if passion is important to you then stay a hobbyist or sell only what you have shot (and see whether there is a market for your pictures). If you work for somebody (hired photographer) then you have to deliver what you are asked for - your opinion or passion or whatever .. is maybe considered but mostly not relevant.
    Secondly: you found the photo biz section already. Please read through the stickies and other threads. Being a hired photographer is a business, so use business sense here instead of passion or any other emotion.
    EOS

  6. #6

    Default

    Just take your CF card and let him die for the vvip event. As for the money it's up to you whether you wanna waste your time arguing for it. It's a measly sum really. lol I'd take it as a lesson learnt for your time wasted

  7. #7

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    What are my options now ?
    If you have already declined his offer "whether in writing or verbal, expressed or implied", you're not obliged to work for him.

    What is a Contract of Service?

    Contracts of Service & Termination
    A contract of service is any agreement whether in writing or verbal, expressed or implied, whereby:

    One person agrees to employ another as an employee; and
    The other person agrees to serve the employer as an employee.

    An apprenticeship contract or agreement is also considered a contract of service.

    A contract of service can be in the form of a letter of appointment/employment.

    The employer cannot change the terms and conditions of employment unless the employee agrees to it.

    Any terms and conditions of employment, in a contract of service, that is less favourable than the relevant provision under the Employment Act is illegal, null and void. The provision in the Act will take precedence over a particular contractual term that is less favourable.

    http://www.mom.gov.sg/employment-pra...rmination.aspx

    Retrieve your personal property and walk away.

    If you have time to spare on your hands, and want to pursue this... Send him an invoice for the work performed so far. Inform the school (and his other clients if you can get in touch with them) of his conduct and his business practices. You can even try to make a police report (don't know if they'll take your report, but it's worth a shot), it may help to put some pressure on person A to make good what is due to you. I'd just move on though. Be careful and do your due diligence in seeking out more reputable companies/individuals next time.
    Last edited by kandinsky; 4th September 2014 at 09:56 PM.

  8. #8
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default

    This is chicken feeds, if you want to make money out from photography, learn to deal with it, there are always somebody try to take advantage on photographers.


    Stay as an amateur, so you can feed on your passion.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
    www.benjaminloo.com | iStock portfolio

  9. #9
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Two Main Red Flags

    1) No ROI on the rate you are offer
    2) Shouldn't pass your CF before getting paid

  10. #10

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Hmm, this thread should be a sticky, suggest to mods to sticky it.

    IMHO, don't go to his house alone. What if he rape you? Just go and get your memory card back. Don't do anymore stupid stuff with him like reviewing your photos. What if he find fault, or set more traps on you? Just get the card back, if he don't give you, call police.

    Next time don't anyhow take jobs, there's an army of crooks out there to get young naive photographers.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by sjackal; 5th September 2014 at 12:52 AM.
    WTB Manfrotto RC4 L Bracket

  11. #11

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Esper, sorry to hear your plight. I will be honest here. So please bear with me if I sound harsh.

    You do sound amateurish and young, and rightly so, as you have stated earlier.

    If you were already suspicious along the way, why did you continue to go along with the person? By typing out this long post, it's probably worth a good portion of your assignment's pay in terms of time wasted. (Even though it's commendable that you have good intentions.)

    Don't do any stupid stunt by not turning up and that sort of thing. If you don't like it, or feel suspicious, tell the person upfront the truth NOW. You didn't sign any contract for no-show with him right? If so, then tell him you want to quit. By not turning up, taking lousy pictures, etc, you are jeopardizing your own future career in photography, if ever it exists.

    I find this whole experience you are going through to be a typical Singaporean behavior. Which is not good. We get so scared to raise our voice when there is something disagreeable. (Just like in politics! Sorry I have to take a stab at it here.) But yet we just endure. Then when we cannot take it any more, we post our anger online, in the newspaper forums, etc. It's too tiring. Nobody bothers eventually. Instead, just say it out. Deal it there and then to solve the matter.

    By the way, the photography trade as a profession is not easy everywhere, including Singapore. It is increasingly getting more and more difficult. Too many hobbyists have good photography skills and even good cameras. Many can take better pictures than full-time professionals. Personally, I've seen a few wedding photographers who started out quite well give up cos the work is tough, clients expect A LOT from you, and you don't get paid consistently, even if the fees you charge is enough to put bread and water in front of you.

    I do suggest you have a back up plan while you are still young. But good luck anyway! You won't know or can be convinced unless you try.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    To make it blunt: if passion is important to you then stay a hobbyist or sell only what you have shot (and see whether there is a market for your pictures). If you work for somebody (hired photographer) then you have to deliver what you are asked for - your opinion or passion or whatever .. is maybe considered but mostly not relevant.
    Secondly: you found the photo biz section already. Please read through the stickies and other threads. Being a hired photographer is a business, so use business sense here instead of passion or any other emotion.
    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    This is chicken feeds, if you want to make money out from photography, learn to deal with it, there are always somebody try to take advantage on photographers.
    Noted. But what really upsets me is seeing people who is not willing to invest his own monies in staying relevant to the industry. Maybe it's because it's the first time that I've been on on field working as a photographer from a business perspective. Nevertheless, I'll take it as a lesson learnt, and try to refine my Job searches in the future to match what I am comfortable with.

    Thank you all for your insight..







    Quote Originally Posted by eleveninth View Post
    Just take your CF card and let him die for the vvip event. As for the money it's up to you whether you wanna waste your time arguing for it. It's a measly sum really. lol I'd take it as a lesson learnt for your time wasted
    I'll be getting my CF Card back from him later in the day. As for the V-VIP event, considering the fact that the client has already briefed me on the expectations, preparations and what not, I will give it some good consideration on whether or not should I just AWOL, for the client already has my contact number.

    Thank you for your reply.





    Quote Originally Posted by Anson View Post
    Two Main Red Flags
    1) No ROI on the rate you are offer
    2) Shouldn't pass your CF before getting paid
    Noted. The reason why I never rejected him when he asked to bring back my CF Card is because he isn't very computer literate. So, unwillingly and angrily, I had to pass him my CF Card. Will ask for upfront payment in exchange for images in the future..

    Thank you for your warnings and insight..






    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    Just go and get your memory card back. Don't do anymore stupid stuff with him like reviewing your photos. What if he find fault, or set more traps on you? Just get the card back, if he don't give you, call police.

    Next time don't anyhow take jobs, there's an army of crooks out there to get young naive photographers.

    Good luck.
    I will be more careful in the future when the opportunity comes by again.. Mainly it's because I haven't stated what am I comfortable with or not, and my basic T&C to keep myself protected.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    IMHO, don't go to his house alone. What if he rape you?
    Not really concerned about this as I am a tattooed man, and heck am I sure that I can outrun him and defend myself if anything happens as I am about 1.5 heads taller than him.. Haha.

    Thank You for your concern and advice.
    Last edited by Esper; 5th September 2014 at 11:26 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    Esper, sorry to hear your plight. I will be honest here. So please bear with me if I sound harsh.

    You do sound amateurish and young, and rightly so, as you have stated earlier.

    If you were already suspicious along the way, why did you continue to go along with the person? By typing out this long post, it's probably worth a good portion of your assignment's pay in terms of time wasted. (Even though it's commendable that you have good intentions.)

    Don't do any stupid stunt by not turning up and that sort of thing. If you don't like it, or feel suspicious, tell the person upfront the truth NOW. You didn't sign any contract for no-show with him right? If so, then tell him you want to quit. By not turning up, taking lousy pictures, etc, you are jeopardizing your own future career in photography, if ever it exists.

    I find this whole experience you are going through to be a typical Singaporean behavior. Which is not good. We get so scared to raise our voice when there is something disagreeable. (Just like in politics! Sorry I have to take a stab at it here.) But yet we just endure. Then when we cannot take it any more, we post our anger online, in the newspaper forums, etc. It's too tiring. Nobody bothers eventually. Instead, just say it out. Deal it there and then to solve the matter.

    By the way, the photography trade as a profession is not easy everywhere, including Singapore. It is increasingly getting more and more difficult. Too many hobbyists have good photography skills and even good cameras. Many can take better pictures than full-time professionals. Personally, I've seen a few wedding photographers who started out quite well give up cos the work is tough, clients expect A LOT from you, and you don't get paid consistently, even if the fees you charge is enough to put bread and water in front of you.

    I do suggest you have a back up plan while you are still young. But good luck anyway! You won't know or can be convinced unless you try.

    The reason why I went along with him is that,
    The rate of him giving me more assignments that I have not accecpted is overwhelming the rate at which I can take a step back, relax and try to comprehend the situation.
    He just keeps talking and talking and talking about what's coming up, how does he need more shooters, blah blah blah, you get the point.

    I will try to draw a clear line with him later when I've meet him. And since the V-VIP Event is a seriously important Event,
    If I shoot the event and do well, this may be a great deal of experience to me, and for my portfolio.
    But if I'm unable to meet the V-VIP's requirements, I may very well have screwed myself.

    But now V-VIP representive thinks I'm shooting
    Person 'A' assumes that I've agreed and that I'm shooting, when in fact I never told him that I will.

    Thus, I'm in a dilemma... Do it? Or tell him I'm not going to..?
    But I've never signed any thing from him before.. What if he says that I'm screwing him on purpose, and go ard saying crap to others ?

    And I agree with your point about the Typical Singaporean Behaviour.. Just because we don't kpkb back when things get unfair,
    they simply just keep eating and eating us..

    Thank You for your reply ..

  14. #14
    Member cirenaiht's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Sorry to hear your story dude…this will be 1 story you will remember for the rest of your life and probably share with others when u talk about you success story..

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper View Post
    Not really concerned about this as I am a tattooed man, and heck am I sure that I can outrun him and defend myself if anything happens as I am about 1.5 heads taller than him.. Haha.

    Thank You for your concern and advice.
    I couldn't help but LOL at this…heart shaped tattoo?or 'I love mama' tattoo??

  15. #15

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by cirenaiht View Post
    Sorry to hear your story dude…this will be 1 story you will remember for the rest of your life and probably share with others when u talk about you success story..



    I couldn't help but LOL at this…heart shaped tattoo?or 'I love mama' tattoo??
    Actually it's tweety bird + power ranger tatt.. Hahaha
    Note : Past is past, alrdy turned over new leaf long ago. What matters is now and on
    Last edited by Esper; 5th September 2014 at 12:14 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    We were all young and naive once Guys like this prey on the young and naive.

    Lesson learnt, get your card back and disassociate yourself from him. Don't lie or just not turn up -- that would affect many others, not just him. Tell him you are not taking the job. You didn't accept / sign an agreement / collect a deposit, did you?

    Let him come here and hire a photographer at an APPROPRIATE rate. I hate seeing ads asking for students / passionate amateurs. First sign of cheap Charlie clients.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Pay too low already la
    D800E / Tamron 28-75mm f2.8 / 150-600 Tamron

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    all the best in your CF recovery and hope you'd learn from this...

    if we ever meet, i'd share with you my experience....
    you'd probably feel way better after

  19. #19
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Like what catchlights said. What you went through is nothing compared to how others are ripping off other photographers.

    I recommend you expose this person here.

    Learn from this lesson and move on.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Upset Photographer - Feeling Violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Like what catchlights said. What you went through is nothing compared to how others are ripping off other photographers.

    I recommend you expose this person here.

    Learn from this lesson and move on.
    perhaps there should be a "share my story" thread. it'd certainly be an interesting read

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