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Thread: Old Fox MiG 31

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    Default Old Fox MiG 31

    I was always amazed with Sovyet's tech. Particularly MiG 31.

    I know that Foxhound can reach Mach 3.2 and was built to intercept SR71 or the bomber Valkyrie which never entered service.

    When SR71 retired, I thought same fate will befall MiG 31, since there's nomore target and it is sluggish with handling tight turns, rendering it unsuitable for dogfight. I didn't know that it packs impressive radar for an interceptor.

    This allowed each Foxhound unprecedented detection capabilities—they can spot as many as 24 individual objects at a range of 200 km and track eight of them simultaneously, while the onboard computer determines the four most threatening pings and automatically locks R-33 long-range air-to-air missiles onto them. The four that the MiG doesn't destroy are then immediately targeted by anti-aircraft fire and Soviet fighter jets, thanks to the MiG automatically relaying their coordinates to HQ.
    Last edited by Foxshade; 27th June 2014 at 12:28 PM.
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    Many products are more sought after not because they are better. It is all about marketing. Soviet has men in space long ago and their planes were sold to those not so friendly with the Europeans and USA. If their marketing is bigger, they will be selling them like Japanese cars here. Haha

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    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Built as an interceptor.... like the MIG25 'Foxbat'... most likely have terrible maneuverability during dogfight...

    IIRC... SU27 is suppose to be so sort of replacement... correct me if I'm wrong...

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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    Built as an interceptor.... like the MIG25 'Foxbat'... most likely have terrible maneuverability during dogfight...

    IIRC... SU27 is suppose to be so sort of replacement... correct me if I'm wrong...
    Yup you are right. Foxbat and Foxhound are interceptors, and their specific targets are the spy plane SR71 which loves to cross border and take photos, and the nuclear capable supersonic bomber Valkyrie. They are horrible in subsonic flight and tight turns.

    i think SU27 have different designation. It is supposed to be maneuverable and fight.
    Last edited by Foxshade; 27th June 2014 at 02:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    Many products are more sought after not because they are better. It is all about marketing. Soviet has men in space long ago and their planes were sold to those not so friendly with the Europeans and USA. If their marketing is bigger, they will be selling them like Japanese cars here. Haha
    Not sure about most of their product quality though, but their engineers are those typical our high school math teacher that does calculation on blackboard sans calculator type. Nothing fancy, but their brain power is amazing.

    For all I know, Poljot and Vostok made robust watches (Komandirskie, Amphibia and such). Too bad no $ to pursue them.

    Oh, for those who has the privilege to serve NS, I heard some of them hate M-16 and wish to use AK47 because need less maintenance. How true was that?
    Last edited by Foxshade; 27th June 2014 at 02:39 PM.
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    Senior Member sammy888's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxshade View Post
    Yup you are right. Foxbat and Foxhound are interceptors, and their specific targets are the spy plane SR71 which loves to cross border and take photos, and the nuclear capable supersonic bomber Valkyrie. They are horrible in subsonic flight and tight turns.

    i think SU27 have different designation. It is supposed to be maneuverable and fight.
    The Radars on their planes like the SU 27 are known to be one of the best around especially for that period and even for the SU27 radar system, it was able to target as many as 6 planes ( I think) at one time...better then what the US planes could do as they were the first to use helmet mounted guidance system. For me from the time of the MiG 29 and especially the SU27 Flankers those were the most beautiful looking plane versus performance. Simple to make, easily serviceable parts and now in it's latest form the SU 35 they are still really great dog fight planes. The talk about stealth planes which they have one in the works but the ones over in the US is almost like a soap opera thingy. Maybe what they say is right that the best 4th & 5th Generation fighters planes are at this time mainly from Russian and Europe not counting in the classic F15 Eagle and the Super Hornet F18. The concentration on the US side is trying to keep the air fighting to missiles from long distance then to engage in air to air dog fighting. Makes sense but that would mean the end of pilots as drones would be able to do that task if so.

    Good to see some fans of fighter planes here.

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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    The Soviets and Americans supersonic intercepters for the explicit to hunt down and shoot down each other's strategic bombers. The MiG-25/31 filled that niche and had both the range and speed to intercept incoming supersonic bombers. The MiG-25 was designed to counter the XB-70 Valkyrie which could do Mach 3. The project was cancelled in the end, but there was the SR-71 Blackbird that had very advanced jet engines that could allow the plane do MACH 3.2 (there was even a bomber variant that was studied!)

    The Soviets and Americans had technological parity in the 80s (believe it or not). OF course with the collapse of the USSR, all that is rather moot now. The Russians are now at least 1-1.5 generations behind in quite a bit of tech now.

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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by sammy888 View Post
    The Radars on their planes like the SU 27 are known to be one of the best around especially for that period and even for the SU27 radar system, it was able to target as many as 6 planes ( I think) at one time...better then what the US planes could do as they were the first to use helmet mounted guidance system. For me from the time of the MiG 29 and especially the SU27 Flankers those were the most beautiful looking plane versus performance. Simple to make, easily serviceable parts and now in it's latest form the SU 35 they are still really great dog fight planes. The talk about stealth planes which they have one in the works but the ones over in the US is almost like a soap opera thingy. Maybe what they say is right that the best 4th & 5th Generation fighters planes are at this time mainly from Russian and Europe not counting in the classic F15 Eagle and the Super Hornet F18. The concentration on the US side is trying to keep the air fighting to missiles from long distance then to engage in air to air dog fighting. Makes sense but that would mean the end of pilots as drones would be able to do that task if so.

    Good to see some fans of fighter planes here.
    The Russians were very good with PESA radars, but everyone is switching to AESA radars now.

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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    I feel that the Gizmodo article is quite sensationalised (as always) ignoring certain key factors (just playing along with the devil's advocate here).

    Anyway flight envelope trials during classified flight tests conducted on a captured MiG-25 Foxbat after Soviet Lieutenant Viktor Belenko from the 513th Fighter Regiment based at Chuguyevka Air Force Base (AFB) in Primorsky Krai defected in one to Hakodate, Japan on the 6th of September 1976 clearly demonstrated the MiG-25 Foxbat cannot be pushed passed Mach 2.5 safely with "triple redline" engine instrumental conditions limited at Mach 2.83 before the risk of catastrophic turbine destruction and / or failure occurs within the Tumansky R-15BD-300 powerplant in real word scenarios. Even at this "wet" conditions with full AfterBurners (AB (Maximum Power Rating)), flight time is only approximately 2 to 8 minutes from take-off with a service ceiling not exceeding ~ 75,000 feet Above Mean Sea Level (AMSL), not even remotely anywhere close to their targeted pray is suppose to be at. In fact, the Americans found the MiG-25 Foxbat so underwhelming, they returned it to the soviets barely two months later, in pieces of course.

    We once attended a conference symposium with the keynote speech delivered by a former SR-71 Blackbird flight instructor and at no time while they were in active service did they even considered the MiG-25 Foxbat or MiG-31 Foxhound the slightest threat as they can simply outrun any Anti-Air Missiles (AAMs) fired upon them.

    Also, the AN/AWG-9 used in conjunction with the AIM-54 Phoenix on-board the F-14 Tomcat already has the ability to simultaneously track onto 24 airborne targets, and engage upon 6 of them in Track While Scan (TWS) mode, and this was almost a decade before the MiG-31 Foxhound entered service.
    Last edited by 9V-Orion Images; 27th June 2014 at 08:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    I feel that the Gizmodo article is quite sensationalised (as always) ignoring certain key factors (just playing along with the devil's advocate here).

    Anyway flight envelope trials during classified flight tests conducted on a captured MiG-25 Foxbat after Soviet Lieutenant Viktor Belenko from the 513th Fighter Regiment based at Chuguyevka Air Force Base (AFB) in Primorsky Krai defected in one to Hakodate, Japan on the 6th of September 1976 clearly demonstrated the MiG-25 Foxbat cannot be pushed passed Mach 2.5 safely with "triple redline" engine instrumental conditions limited at Mach 2.83 before the risk of catastrophic turbine destruction and / or failure occurs within the Tumansky R-15BD-300 powerplant in real word scenarios. Even at this "wet" conditions with full AfterBurners (AB (Maximum Power Rating)), flight time is only approximately 2 to 8 minutes from take-off with a service ceiling not exceeding ~ 75,000 feet Above Mean Sea Level (AMSL), not even remotely anywhere close to their targeted pray is suppose to be at. In fact, the Americans found the MiG-25 Foxbat so underwhelming, they returned it to the soviets barely two months later, in pieces of course.

    We once attended a conference symposium with the keynote speech delivered by a former SR-71 Blackbird flight instructor and at no time while they were in active service did they even considered the MiG-25 Foxbat or MiG-31 Foxhound the slightest threat as they can simply outrun any Anti-Air Missiles (AAMs) fired upon them.

    Also, the AN/AWG-9 used in conjunction with the AIM-54 Phoenix on-board the F-14 Tomcat already has the ability to simultaneously track onto 24 airborne targets, and engage upon 6 of them in Track While Scan (TWS) mode, and this was almost a decade before the MiG-31 Foxhound entered service.
    The F-14 was tasked for a different mission. The MiG-31 Foxhound's radar was meant to be powerful enough to burn through the intense electronic jamming that would have been used in a real war. The MiG-31 was simply a rocket with a cockpit. That was all that was to it. The future MiG-41 would be no different.

    And to be frank. The US had a lack of intelligence on a lot of Russian missiles equipment. The intel bonanza when the Germans allowed the Americans to see Russian equipment forced the US to innovate on its missiles and equipment. A good example was the remarkable effectiveness of Kontakt-V ERA against KE projectiles.
    Last edited by NazgulKing; 27th June 2014 at 11:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxshade View Post
    Not sure about most of their product quality though, but their engineers are those typical our high school math teacher that does calculation on blackboard sans calculator type. Nothing fancy, but their brain power is amazing. For all I know, Poljot and Vostok made robust watches (Komandirskie, Amphibia and such). Too bad no $ to pursue them. Oh, for those who has the privilege to serve NS, I heard some of them hate M-16 and wish to use AK47 because need less maintenance. How true was that?
    Yeap, I own a Poliot watch. Simple and cheap. Auto and is very accurate.

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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by NazgulKing View Post
    The F-14 was tasked for a different mission. The MiG-31 Foxhound's radar was meant to be powerful enough to burn through the intense electronic jamming that would have been used in a real war. The MiG-31 was simply a rocket with a cockpit. That was all that was to it. The future MiG-41 would be no different.

    And to be frank. The US had a lack of intelligence on a lot of Russian missiles equipment. The intel bonanza when the Germans allowed the Americans to see Russian equipment forced the US to innovate on its missiles and equipment. A good example was the remarkable effectiveness of Kontakt-V ERA against KE projectiles.
    Different mission profile but ultimately their roles are the same. Specifically for the F-14 Tomcat, it is the dire need for the urgent requirements to be able to intercept swarms of possibly nuclear-armed Air-Launched Cruise Missiles (ALCMs) fired from multiple supersonic strategic bombers such as the Tupolev Tu-22M Backfire primarily and its later iteration, the Tupolev Tu-160 Blackjack operating at high altitudes in a heavily saturated Electronic Countermeasures (ECMs) environment against an Aircraft Carrier Battle Group (CVBG).

    The Semi-Active Radar Homing (SARH) AIM-54 Phoenix and R-33 (AA-9 Amos) Air to Air Missiles (AAMs) are also largely similar both in design / function and specifications (I'll be surprise if the Soviets hadn't actually taken a look at the AN/AWG-9 and AIM-54 Phoenix from the Iranians) with their optimum cruising altitude anywhere between 80,000 feet to 100,000 feet at Mach 4.5 to Mach 5.

    During training exercises and sorties known as "Tomcat Chase" and "Eagle Bait" flown by F-14 Tomcats and F-15 Eagles against the SR-71 Blackbird, the SR-71 Blackbird with all Electronic Warfare (EW) systems inhibited will just simply navigate around in a fixed circuit pattern also known to all parties involved before Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) controllers vector in the F-14 Tomcats and F-15 Eagles for a head-on intercept with a zoom climb and yet somehow the F-14 Tomcats and F-15 Eagles still find it difficult to sustain a satisfactory kill rate and this was an era where Soviet Fire Control System (FCS) was still clearly inferior to the Americans.
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    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Never known there is so many Keyboard/Paper General/Warrior here in Kopitiam... LOL

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    There is a lot of hidden talent here sipping kopi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by airfins View Post
    There is a lot of hidden talent here sipping kopi.
    All copy from wiki one la

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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by NazgulKing View Post
    The Russians were very good with PESA radars, but everyone is switching to AESA radars now.
    One of the next major procurement for the RSAF will be the Viper's Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) including either the Northrop Grumman SABR or the Raytheon ACR AESA radar system but with the USAF Combat Avionics Programmed Extension Suite (CAPES) hanging in the balance, high probability that we'll go along with the latter instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    All copy from wiki one la
    So what do you have to contribute other than your smart arsed remark?
    Last edited by 9V-Orion Images; 29th June 2014 at 09:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    One of the next major procurement for the RSAF will be the Viper's Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) including either the Northrop Grumman SABR or the Raytheon ACR AESA radar system but with the USAF Combat Avionics Programmed Extension Suite (CAPES) hanging in the balance, high probability that we'll go along with the latter instead.


    So what do you have to contribute other than your smart arsed remark?
    donuts. 88 of them to be precise
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    I feel that the Gizmodo article is quite sensationalised (as always) ignoring certain key factors (just playing along with the devil's advocate here).

    Anyway flight envelope trials during classified flight tests conducted on a captured MiG-25 Foxbat after Soviet Lieutenant Viktor Belenko from the 513th Fighter Regiment based at Chuguyevka Air Force Base (AFB) in Primorsky Krai defected in one to Hakodate, Japan on the 6th of September 1976 clearly demonstrated the MiG-25 Foxbat cannot be pushed passed Mach 2.5 safely with "triple redline" engine instrumental conditions limited at Mach 2.83 before the risk of catastrophic turbine destruction and / or failure occurs within the Tumansky R-15BD-300 powerplant in real word scenarios. Even at this "wet" conditions with full AfterBurners (AB (Maximum Power Rating)), flight time is only approximately 2 to 8 minutes from take-off with a service ceiling not exceeding ~ 75,000 feet Above Mean Sea Level (AMSL), not even remotely anywhere close to their targeted pray is suppose to be at. In fact, the Americans found the MiG-25 Foxbat so underwhelming, they returned it to the soviets barely two months later, in pieces of course.
    Yup. That's the reason of MiG31's existence. MiG 25 can't sustain the adequate speed long enough to intercept SR71, or the future Valkyrie.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    We once attended a conference symposium with the keynote speech delivered by a former SR-71 Blackbird flight instructor and at no time while they were in active service did they even considered the MiG-25 Foxbat or MiG-31 Foxhound the slightest threat as they can simply outrun any Anti-Air Missiles (AAMs) fired upon them.
    For this one, it's up to everybody's claim. Both sides claimed the opposite. As far as the fact that there's no SR71 casualty, we tend to believe US claim.

    Here's Sovyet's claim, but it's picked up from a blog. How accurate can it be, while the previous article in the same blog was praising about SR71? But it was only talking about Foxbat and SR71 though.

    Btw, R33 AAM carried by MiG 31 has speed of 4.5 Mach. Quite close to Phoenix (5 Mach). SR71 can't outran this, if it is brought by an interceptor close enough.
    Last edited by Foxshade; 30th June 2014 at 01:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by NazgulKing View Post
    And to be frank. The US had a lack of intelligence on a lot of Russian missiles equipment. The intel bonanza when the Germans allowed the Americans to see Russian equipment forced the US to innovate on its missiles and equipment. A good example was the remarkable effectiveness of Kontakt-V ERA against KE projectiles.
    It's on paper talk. The fact can only be established in real combat, unfortunately. Just like UK's Sea Harrier. No one took it seriously until Falkland war.
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    Default Re: Old Fox MiG 31

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    All copy from wiki one la
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