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Thread: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Yes I understand. Many people think like this, mostly & usually they are first timers in the HDB game. Lawrence does not stay in Punggol but Sengkang West/Fernvale Road in/around block 44X, 41X or 43X from his descriptions. HDB last transacted prices for these between $ 465K-510K. Not all people can stay with family, some people have a family of their own like Lawrence with his 2 kids, & has to rent a flat whilst waiting for their new flat. This can come up to say $24K pa. What about agent's commission, moving/renovation costs etc?

    BTO involves chances/ballots/queues for flats normally in new/remote areas together with the 2-3 years waiting time. There is no guarantee one will succeed in getting a flat, or one may end up getting a flat in poor location/floor/facing etc. Its the luck of the draw. So if one sells a expensive flat in choice location & get a cheaper flat inferior in comparison, in effect, its just downgrading as I have mentioned. Where property is concerned, much if not all is about location, location & location. This account for most of the price difference. This apply whether going the BTO way or buying a flat direct from the open market. Its like if one move from central AMK to outlying Jurong West, there will be a huge price difference for the "downgrade". Heck, even moving from one estate/area to another within the same HDB town makes a huge difference! Some may choose to see this as making money, its up to them. Its a case of comparing orange with orange, or orange with apple. If one has an orange which cost $1 & substitute it with an apple which cost $0.50, yes,one can claim to save, or "made" money. But in reality, we had an orange which is worth more but now have an apple which worth less instead. That was one of my point.

    Anyway,its Lawrence's choice. Whether its worth it up to him. Change perspective to buyers of HDB flats, if prices jump 2X, 3X, for nothing associated with productivity but with speculation, can we blame them from complaining to HDB/Govt? HDB now pumping out flats like nobody's business, like what I see in Yishun where hills are flattened & flats sprout out like overnight. Prices may stabilize or even fall...

    And what new unique "strategies" are we talking about here? People has been doing same/similar in the 90's, buy HDB, then sell when price risen & buy HDB again in new estates (take loans even better). That led up to the 1997 financial crisis. Only this time, Govt has wised up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    Basically, what Lawrence was trying to say that he bought his first BTO flat from HDB at around $200k 5 years ago. Now he wanted to cash out at $580k. After which, he will ballot for a second time BTO flat from HDB at the same estate, not necessarily same area.

    The BTO flats launched in 2014 consists of Punggol area which Lawrence is currently staying. For a 4-room flat, you can get around $300k excluding grants. He has to pay a resale levy of $40k from his previous sold flat. Therefore, he will receive around $240k extra in terms of CPF and cash. Of course, while waiting for the second BTO flat to be ready, you will need to find a place to stay. Most of time, you will stay at your parents or in-laws place for 2-3 years while waiting for the second BTO flat to be ready.
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 23rd May 2014 at 05:52 PM.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Dfive's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernestho View Post
    So the recent news on property price gives hope for lower price.
    Saw a number of property investment talks in newspaper.
    Anyone attended property investment talks on local and foreign properties and like to share experience?
    I'll buy when its affordable..... 50% should do the trick
    See my WTS items.. :) Any sales is by meet up face to face, payment is cash only.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    Yes I understand. Many people think like this, mostly & usually they are first timers in the HDB game. Lawrence does not stay in Punggol but Sengkang West/Fernvale Road in/around block 44X, 41X or 43X from his descriptions. HDB last transacted prices for these between $ 465K-510K. Not all people can stay with family, some people have a family of their own like Lawrence with his 2 kids, & has to rent a flat whilst waiting for their new flat. This can come up to say $24K pa. What about agent's commission, moving/renovation costs etc?

    BTO involves chances/ballots/queues for flats normally in new/remote areas together with the 2-3 years waiting time. There is no guarantee one will succeed in getting a flat, or one may end up getting a flat in poor location/floor/facing etc. Its the luck of the draw. So if one sells a expensive flat in choice location & get a cheaper flat inferior in comparison, in effect, its just downgrading as I have mentioned. Where property is concerned, much if not all is about location, location & location. This account for most of the price difference. This apply whether going the BTO way or buying a flat direct from the open market. Its like if one move from central AMK to outlying Jurong West, there will be a huge price difference for the "downgrade". Heck, even moving from one estate/area to another within the same HDB town makes a huge difference! Some may choose to see this as making money, its up to them. Its a case of comparing orange with orange, or orange with apple. If one has an orange which cost $1 & substitute it with an apple which cost $0.50, yes,one can claim to save, or "made" money. But in reality, we had an orange which is worth more but now have an apple which worth less instead. That was one of my point.

    Anyway,its Lawrence's choice. Whether its worth it up to him. Change perspective to buyers of HDB flats, if prices jump 2X, 3X, for nothing associated with productivity but with speculation, can we blame them from complaining to HDB/Govt? HDB now pumping out flats like nobody's business, like what I see in Yishun where hills are flattened & flats sprout out like overnight. Prices may stabilize or even fall...

    And what new unique "strategies" are we talking about here? People has been doing same/similar in the 90's, buy HDB, then sell when price risen & buy HDB again in new estates (take loans even better). That led up to the 1997 financial crisis. Only this time, Govt has wised up.
    You forgot to point out, If all goes well for him, got his new bto flat, years later sell away when time is right (ar 40yrs old) it's another windfall for Lawrence ..

    Thats if the rule remain the same aa now.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    I have done nothing but twiddle my thumbs, wriggle my toes for past 10 years & the price of my property has gone up. Same for so many owners when price rises, not unique in Lawrence case. Only 1st timers, greenhorns, novices get so excited, elated, like they struck gold, when they realise property price has risen over time & start counting their chickens before the eggs are hatched User-Ownners, traders & investors are different creatures with different aims & strategies to make money. Only the latter 2 w 2nd property are real winners to claim they made profits. Don't have to jump from flat to flat, BTO to BTO just sit on the "goldmine" one has, if that is what you are talking about Only those who want/need the money cash in (e.g like retirees) as bottom line no real difference. Simple formula for you to ponder:

    Flat A = $600K, sell it buy inferior flat B $300K & industrial flat C $300K. Property price rises 50%. Is not 50%(A) = 50%(B+C) or 50%B + 50%C ? So selling better or is it LPPL? Why not just sit on flat A? Holding a choice prime asset is better than multiple degraded assets. If desperate for income, rent room or flat out & stay with parents/find cheaper lodgings

    Obviously you don't read or understand what I posted so we leave it at that. Btw, the chances of 2nd timers succeeding in BTO is 15% per HDB. Old article, maybe interesting for some to read http://tankinlian.blogspot.sg/2010/0...hancement.html. Govt biggest land owner, developer, price rise, coffers increase!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit-Kat-Lover View Post
    You forgot to point out, If all goes well for him, got his new bto flat, years later sell away when time is right (ar 40yrs old) it's another windfall for Lawrence ..

    Thats if the rule remain the same aa now.
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 25th May 2014 at 11:26 AM.

  5. #65
    Member Parka's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    There's a difference between inflation and appreciation.

    An investment is only an investment when it can be realised. For property, it means you have to sell. If you have no problem finding a place to stay, that's great.

    Personally, I would go for investment in business entities, e.g. shares, starting own business. At least those will benefit the economy.

    High property prices nowadays is just to soak up the excess money in the market. In other words, there's no benefit to the economy at all, unless, it benefits by making people work longer hours in the office to pay for their property.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    Btw, the chances of 2nd timers succeeding in BTO is 15% per HDB.
    This is something Lawrence should take that into consideration. If he is not successful in getting his second BTO flat, then he has to wait another round, i.e. longer period. Alternatively, he can consider going for BTO in other estates.

    As for whether he and his family can stay with his parents or in-laws place, we can't comment. Only Lawrence can tell us whether his parents or in-laws mind them staying with them for 2-3 years while waiting for the second BTO flat.

    As another member has pointed out, renting a place for 2-3 years is not going to be cheap. That will eat up your so called "profit" from the HDB sale.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    I have done nothing but twiddle my thumbs, wriggle my toes for past 10 years & the price of my property has gone up.
    With only left hand and right leg or both hands and both legs?

  8. #68

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Are high property prices really bad for everybody? The answer is No.

    I happened to come across some real life examples.

    1) An old lady who is single bought a 3 room HDB flat in the 80's. Now that she is very old and stopped working; her retirement fund needs to come from somewhere. Personal savings plus CPF may be temp sufficient but not on long term basis. Given that the market price of her 3 room flat has gone up beyond $300k. She can sell it and downgrade to a studio flat. Smaller space and shorter lease term are not a problem given her age. Eventually, She sold her flat for $300k++ and bought a studio flat around the area for $125k. The majority balance will be in cash since the utilisation of the CPF was very low when she bought the flat years ago. She has at least close to $90k additional cash to spend on her retirement now. Thanks to the skyrocketed HDB prices, she is able to sell her flat for a reasonable profit and to have the additional cash for retirement.

    In Singapore context, you cannot depend on the government as it has already stated clearly that Singapore is not a welfare state. You have to take care of yourself.

    2) A retired couple decided to move to our neighbouring countries such as Malaysia, Thailand, etc due to lower cost of living. All their children have grown up and married.

    Again, due to the skyrocketed property prices, they sold their flat at handsome profits. After selling, they moved on to buy a landed property in Malaysia. With the balance cash left from the sale flat, they live like a King there. Buying big ticket items like cars, etc are dirt cheap.

    Once in a while, whenever they have the time, they will come back to Singapore to visit their children and grandchildren vice versa.

    High property prices do help them in achieving better lifestyle.


    There are more examples but I shall stop here.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    No need for examples, people know, some people make money. Can't reason with those who made, want to make more money & pushes for more. Since it is so simple & so good, maybe we should all make the prices goes thru the stratosphere into the heavens, then all Singaporeans will be like millionaires & be deliriously happy & the envy of the whole world?

    Assets enhancements which are not normal but speculative bubbles benefit some. But who actually pays for it??? Think.

    This result in inflation, pushes up the costs of living, prices of so many other things. We will be the number 1 with the highest cost of living in the world too. Unrealistic property price increases also give many people a false sense of security & of wealth. The ones who really benefit are those foreigner PRs who sell their flats & return home, & Singaporeans who migrate. As to buying properties in M'sia, there are sovereign risks & other issues. If one day situation turns around, who has the last laugh? But of course, this choice is up to the individuals.

    The govt has been partly responsible for encouraging, pushing the price up because of the huge amount of $$$ these add to the coffers & to garner electoral votes assuring them they are better off & getting richer. Long run, country & people don't really benefit as there is no real economic strength & development. Similar to many other issues confronting the nation as mentioned here https://www.facebook.com/kbinderjit/...64760460217355 See point 6,7,8 & 14 on housing. Article in Yahoo News too

    Property prices have been/will be falling with the measures taken/to be taken to contain it e.g. implementation of TDSR for bank housing loan application.
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 31st May 2014 at 05:39 PM.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    There are still & will always be buyers because people need a home, a roof over their heads, like newlyweds, adults who come of age & qualify for public housing, etc. Whether they can afford it despite rising prices is a separate matter & you know why there are so much dissatisfaction & complaints? Ever consider too the massive influx of foreign PRs caused the demand to escalate? I was helping a friend to look for a flat last year & was shocked almost 50% of those selling were PRC residents! Not sure if they were returning to their homeland with the pile of cash from the sales.

    If demand exceeds supply could it be because the Govt has slowed down the building of new flats or has not anticipated the increased demand for housing (HDB), just like for transportation (MRT), security (little India riots), hospitals (temporary hospital tents in Changi) from the influx??? For many, its just getting a house, not for speculation, although of course no one want their asset to devalue over time. Your conclusion that "this clearly shows ... wanted to make money from properties" is based on what assumptions again? Perhaps its people like you with such ideas that pushes the market to speculate? Anyway, the Govt recognises the problems now & are now building more new flats in double quick time.One other thing, there are many who are cash poor (like you), but nevertheless borrow heavily to invest, or speculate in properties, whichever way you want to look at it. Perhaps they were fired up from attending these talks? The Govt is now imposing various measures in trying to reign in, control speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    Many people complaint that HDB flats are over priced. But why are their still buyers? Some of you may have pointed out that it is due to greed to make fast cash or money from properties. The truth is how many of us belong to this category? It is only that this group of people must be sufficiently large enough to form the market. Demand and supply at work. This clearly shows that a large % of Singaporeans wanted to make money from properties or at least see their properties appreciate in values over time.

    Too bad, I don't have spare cash to invest in second property. But that doesn't mean others are like me, cash poor.

    One member has pointed that it is crazy that a HDB flat has appreciated over 100% in a span of 5 years. Unfortunately, this is a hard truth. I understand that some of us may not be able to apprehend such situation. Go to HDB website to see the price trends of all the completed BTOs and what happened after 5 years and thereafter.

    This spike in property prices is purely driven by our government in my opinion. If you have monitored what our government is doing on property markets since independence from 1965 till todate, you will know that this is the path that Singapore will be heading..
    I've worked in a Private Bank where everyone who walks thru the door has at least minimum $2million in AUM. And I've audited property portfolios before. People dont make millions from properties but rather lose millions during a financial crisis. People do buy the properties cheap when prices crash, when people are forced to sell them cheap due to job/income loss, business foreclosure/bankruptcy etc. These make money when they sell these properties later if & when prices rise. It depends who you are talking to, the one who gain or the one who lost. Talk to the guy who sold his property at lelong prices instead of the one who bought it, you may learn something too. 1 person makes a million the whole world know because he will trumpet his success & how smart he is. 99 who lost multi millions will keep the failures to themselves & hide it if possible from shame. 1 who makes/has money speaks & everyone listens, 1 who lost/has no money speaks, only the ghosts will listen So what if many made money from artificially inflated prices & speculations? All the rest will or should follow? You heard about those who lost everything, even their pants? I know of one who bought 40 condo units, through leveraging, in prime Orchard district, & lost everything, & I mean everything when everything crashed & crumbled around him. No point envying others who made it rich if we don't have it in us to do the same. Holding power is but just 1 of so many attributes to succeed in property investments, not discounting the element of luck too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    If you have the chance to meet property investors - those who make it as well as those who failed, you will know why some make it while some didn't make it. Global financial crisis is not an excuse for failure. In fact, I have seen many people made millions from properties during the financial crisis. In the most recent 2007/2008 Leman Brothers crisis, a friend of mine bought a landed property at $700K++ from someone who failed. Over price? You do your own research in order to draw your own conclusion. After 5 years from the crisis, that landed property is worth more than $2m. He make it because he did his own financial calculation, property research, trend analysis, etc. One word of wisdom from him, if you can hold the property no matter in what situations, you will make it eventually (only true in Singapore due to our government). Holding power is the key to success. You many not agree with him. It's alright. Anyway, he has already made his first million, that's matter.
    Sorry for the long post..
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 1st June 2014 at 03:48 PM.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    same as every other investment. don't over lever. own with safety margin. externalize risk
    宁愿遇见丢失幼崽的母熊,也不愿碰上做蠢事的愚人

  12. #72

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Oh one other thing, my experience tells me the super rich, the ultra rich, who made their fortunes in properties, commodities or whatever, they highly value & jealously guard or zealously protect their privacy. They don't really go around announcing & showing off their gains to others. Those who brag about it are normally the ingénues, virgin investors. The successful don't win all the time, they lose too. But they who succeed just win more consistently & more frequently than they lose.

    They are definitely not those who give talks to share their "secrets" of investments success. If a secret is shared, how then is it still a secret. If they found the secrets, like discovering goldmines, would they have shared it, and with you??? They definitely don't need to give talks Even if a guy who gives talks show me a bank account with a million dollars, it can still be a show, if not a scam. I know of people who use their father's or borrowed money to gain credibility, secure trust. If you see someone driving a Ferrari, you assume its his? Those who give talks are likely there with the intention to make money from those who go to listen Nothing wrong, if we know nothing, we can pay the school fees, we can still learn something there.

    How the market is going, are prices going up or down? Even the waiters/car attendants know. If brokers, agents, fund managers etc start patronizing fancy ex restaurants, upgrade & drive new car models et al then prices, market are up & business is good. If its the opposite, restaurants are empty, foodcourts are packed, then prices, markets are down, bad times are in. Its like feast or famine? This is the joke in business circle. No need expert analysis
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 1st June 2014 at 12:22 AM.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    The golden truth: No one cares more about your money than yourself. If there are people that do, that's only because they want to make your money, their money.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Love your succinct way of putting it. Gem of a saying

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic View Post
    The golden truth: No one cares more about your money than yourself. If there are people that do, that's only because they want to make your money, their money.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    Are high property prices really bad for everybody? The answer is No.

    I happened to come across some real life examples.
    You have presented the other side of the picture. Yes that is true. But stability is what the government should be striving for in public housing, which they failed miserably, especially between 2006-2012.

    Of course, in everything, there is the good side, and bad side, the "yin and yang", if you like. But one cannot say in order to support the poor, it's ok or beneficial to cause property prices to rise uncontrollably, especially public housing.

    Back in 2006-2012, there was a huge outcry by the public on how expensive HDB flats were. Back then, Mah Bow Tan, the notoriously hated MND Minister, simply shrugged it off by saying there was nothing much he could do. He explained it was due to "market forces". Would you believe it??? The government is God-like here and they couldn't do anything? It was hardly convincing to the commoner in the street.

    We came to know later that the government imported so many foreigners and gave them PR status and citizenship quite easily. Surely these people needed to look for a place to live. Not all are rich or can afford private homes. So of course they would be competing with other locally born Singaporeans for HDB flats. Demand and supply. Prices of HDB flats shot up like crazy during that period.

    The Mah minister even got the cheek to ask: "Why are people so dissatisfied? I am helping them create assets where they could make profits from their HDB flats." So for reasons you can deduce yourself, they didn't build many BTO flats, despite knowing so many people were waiting in queue. I kid you not, I know of a man who balloted some 8 times in the past and couldn't even get a flat! Not even the balanced ones. And he and his wife-to-be are local born Singaporeans. They were feeling desperate as they needed to get married soon.

    After GE2011, you know how the votes and popularity for the government dropped compared to previous years. I think that woke them up hard. Think about it. Immediately after GE2011, Mah Bow Tan was removed as MND minister. Why remove him when he (or rather his GRC with his other colleagues) won in the GE? Presumably, the PM woke up to realize this guy had to be removed cos they could no longer proceed with whatever plans they had in mind by not wanting to build more BTO flats.

    Then Khaw Boon Wan came into the picture and took a different strategy from the Mah guy. He started to build BTOs. They had no more excuses not to without incurring more anger from the public. He explained, in a contradicting manner from his predecessor, that HDB flats are not for making profits from. It's public housing. See the difference?

    Then later, the government even went so far as to get other ministers to comment that flats these days are not uncomfortably small. Instead, they are "cozy". Nice play with words. That sounded to me like some psychological game they were trying to play with the public's minds. Call a spade a spade! If it's getting smaller, just say so. People have eyes to see.

    So those who had bought HDB flats during the 2006-2012 period because they really needed a place to live have been shortchanged. Of course, if one is shallow-minded and unreasonable, he or she could say: "Who asked you to buy? Wait lor." And that was appallingly what Khaw Boon Wan said -- Walk away if HDB flats are too expensive. No one is forcing you to buy. I find that rather irresponsible.
    Madness . You expect your people to be “pro-family” on the one hand, yet on the other, you don’t give them even a basic roof over their heads. Then later, you say because Singaporeans are not giving birth quickly enough, we need to import foreigners. Vicious cycle!

    No one is asking the government to heavily subsidize their flats or cost of living. Many times, the government and some people have the misconception that Singaporeans yearn for a nanny state where they are spoon fed. That is certainly not true. All we are asking is that they don't be overly profit-minded. Take care of the people and ensure there are sufficient HDB flat prices to go around and the prices are stabilized. For too long, the government have neglected this point.

    Sure, like all things, nobody expects HDB flat prices to remain stagnant. There's inflation. But how could the government allow the prices to swing erratically in such a short time? This is public housing! If it happens to private, no one cares. But surely the main aim of HDB has to be reiterated? That is, to allow the common citizen to have access to affordable housing. How can a 25 to 30-year housing loan for a small $450,000 flat be considered affordable? (Just an example.)

    In addition, instead of building more BTO flats, they went ahead with fanciful DBSS flats where private developers were given the advantage of designing and pricing their flats. The highest record was $880,000 in Tampines! Ridiculous! Tons of people are queuing for a basic flat, and here they are, trying to make more money with the developers through DBSS flats?!

    Remember, the government here are God-like, they can do things however they want to! At least, build more BTO flats when clearly, there was a need. Did they intentionally allow the prices to go up high for some ulterior motives? This one you judge yourself. Buyers use their CPF money to buy their flats. When HDB flat prices are very high, they got to channel their hard-earned money to the HDB loans. So as some say, money into your pocket every month from your salary, money out to the government to pay for your exorbitantly priced flats.

    All that I have mentioned above are real. You can do some research on past newspaper articles and Goggle search to verify.

    Thank goodness we have opposition parties in the general election. Though I won't say all of them are capable, at least, their mere existence let the ruling government wake up from their slumber/haughty behavior sometimes and keep things moving where the commoners are not disadvantaged.
    Last edited by kiwi2; 2nd June 2014 at 09:09 AM.

  16. #76

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

    You have presented the other side of the picture. Yes that is true. But stability is what the government should be striving for in public housing, which they failed miserably, especially between 2006-2012.

    Of course, in everything, there is the good side, and bad side, the "yin and yang", if you like. But one cannot say in order to support the poor, it's ok or beneficial to cause property prices to rise uncontrollably, especially public housing.

    Back in 2006-2012, there was a huge outcry by the public on how expensive HDB flats were. Back then, Mah Bow Tan, the notoriously hated MND Minister, simply shrugged it off by saying there was nothing much he could do. He explained it was due to "market forces". Would you believe it??? The government is God-like here and they couldn't do anything? It was hardly convincing to the commoner in the street.

    We came to know later that the government imported so many foreigners and gave them PR status and citizenship quite easily. Surely these people needed to look for a place to live. Not all are rich or can afford private homes. So of course they would be competing with other locally born Singaporeans for HDB flats. Demand and supply. Prices of HDB flats shot up like crazy during that period.

    The Mah minister even got the cheek to ask: "Why are people so dissatisfied? I am helping them create assets where they could make profits from their HDB flats." So for reasons you can deduce yourself, they didn't build many BTO flats, despite knowing so many people were waiting in queue. I kid you not, I know of a man who balloted some 8 times in the past and couldn't even get a flat! Not even the balanced ones. And he and his wife-to-be are local born Singaporeans. They were feeling desperate as they needed to get married soon.

    After GE2011, you know how the votes and popularity for the government dropped compared to previous years. I think that woke them up hard. Think about it. Immediately after GE2011, Mah Bow Tan was removed as MND minister. Why remove him when he (or rather his GRC with his other colleagues) won in the GE? Presumably, the PM woke up to realize this guy had to be removed cos they could no longer proceed with whatever plans they had in mind by not wanting to build more BTO flats.

    Then Khaw Boon Wan came into the picture and took a different strategy from the Mah guy. He started to build BTOs. They had no more excuses not to without incurring more anger from the public. He explained, in a contradicting manner from his predecessor, that HDB flats are not for making profits from. It's public housing. See the difference?

    Then later, the government even went so far as to get other ministers to comment that flats these days are not uncomfortably small. Instead, they are "cozy". Nice play with words. That sounded to me like some psychological game they were trying to play with the public's minds. Call a spade a spade! If it's getting smaller, just say so. People have eyes to see.

    So those who had bought HDB flats during the 2006-2012 period because they really needed a place to live have been shortchanged. Of course, if one is shallow-minded and unreasonable, he or she could say: "Who asked you to buy? Wait lor." And that was appallingly what Khaw Boon Wan said -- Walk away if HDB flats are too expensive. No one is forcing you to buy. I find that rather irresponsible.
    Madness . You expect your people to be &ldquoro-family” on the one hand, yet on the other, you don’t give them even a basic roof over their heads. Then later, you say because Singaporeans are not giving birth quickly enough, we need to import foreigners. Vicious cycle!

    No one is asking the government to heavily subsidize their flats or cost of living. Many times, the government and some people have the misconception that Singaporeans yearn for a nanny state where they are spoon fed. That is certainly not true. All we are asking is that they don't be overly profit-minded. Take care of the people and ensure there are sufficient HDB flat prices to go around and the prices are stabilized. For too long, the government have neglected this point.

    Sure, like all things, nobody expects HDB flat prices to remain stagnant. There's inflation. But how could the government allow the prices to swing erratically in such a short time? This is public housing! If it happens to private, no one cares. But surely the main aim of HDB has to be reiterated? That is, to allow the common citizen to have access to affordable housing. How can a 25 to 30-year housing loan for a small $450,000 flat be considered affordable? (Just an example.)

    In addition, instead of building more BTO flats, they went ahead with fanciful DBSS flats where private developers were given the advantage of designing and pricing their flats. The highest record was $880,000 in Tampines! Ridiculous! Tons of people are queuing for a basic flat, and here they are, trying to make more money with the developers through DBSS flats?!

    Remember, the government here are God-like, they can do things however they want to! At least, build more BTO flats when clearly, there was a need. Did they intentionally allow the prices to go up high for some ulterior motives? This one you judge yourself. Buyers use their CPF money to buy their flats. When HDB flat prices are very high, they got to channel their hard-earned money to the HDB loans. So as some say, money into your pocket every month from your salary, money out to the government to pay for your exorbitantly priced flats.

    All that I have mentioned above are real. You can do some research on past newspaper articles and Goggle search to verify.

    Thank goodness we have opposition parties in the general election. Though I won't say all of them are capable, at least, their mere existence let the ruling government wake up from their slumber/haughty behavior sometimes and keep things moving where the commoners are not disadvantaged.
    This is the best post I ever read so far. And I bloody hope our PM and govt is reading this too......

  17. #77

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    You have presented the other side of the picture. Yes that is true. But stability is what the government should be striving for in public housing, which they failed miserably, especially between 2006-2012.

    Of course, in everything, there is the good side, and bad side, the "yin and yang", if you like. But one cannot say in order to support the poor, it's ok or beneficial to cause property prices to rise uncontrollably, especially public housing.

    Back in 2006-2012, there was a huge outcry by the public on how expensive HDB flats were. Back then, Mah Bow Tan, the notoriously hated MND Minister, simply shrugged it off by saying there was nothing much he could do. He explained it was due to "market forces". Would you believe it??? The government is God-like here and they couldn't do anything? It was hardly convincing to the commoner in the street.

    We came to know later that the government imported so many foreigners and gave them PR status and citizenship quite easily. Surely these people needed to look for a place to live. Not all are rich or can afford private homes. So of course they would be competing with other locally born Singaporeans for HDB flats. Demand and supply. Prices of HDB flats shot up like crazy during that period.

    The Mah minister even got the cheek to ask: "Why are people so dissatisfied? I am helping them create assets where they could make profits from their HDB flats." So for reasons you can deduce yourself, they didn't build many BTO flats, despite knowing so many people were waiting in queue. I kid you not, I know of a man who balloted some 8 times in the past and couldn't even get a flat! Not even the balanced ones. And he and his wife-to-be are local born Singaporeans. They were feeling desperate as they needed to get married soon.

    After GE2011, you know how the votes and popularity for the government dropped compared to previous years. I think that woke them up hard. Think about it. Immediately after GE2011, Mah Bow Tan was removed as MND minister. Why remove him when he (or rather his GRC with his other colleagues) won in the GE? Presumably, the PM woke up to realize this guy had to be removed cos they could no longer proceed with whatever plans they had in mind by not wanting to build more BTO flats.

    Then Khaw Boon Wan came into the picture and took a different strategy from the Mah guy. He started to build BTOs. They had no more excuses not to without incurring more anger from the public. He explained, in a contradicting manner from his predecessor, that HDB flats are not for making profits from. It's public housing. See the difference?

    Then later, the government even went so far as to get other ministers to comment that flats these days are not uncomfortably small. Instead, they are "cozy". Nice play with words. That sounded to me like some psychological game they were trying to play with the public's minds. Call a spade a spade! If it's getting smaller, just say so. People have eyes to see.

    So those who had bought HDB flats during the 2006-2012 period because they really needed a place to live have been shortchanged. Of course, if one is shallow-minded and unreasonable, he or she could say: "Who asked you to buy? Wait lor." And that was appallingly what Khaw Boon Wan said -- Walk away if HDB flats are too expensive. No one is forcing you to buy. I find that rather irresponsible.
    Madness . You expect your people to be “pro-family” on the one hand, yet on the other, you don’t give them even a basic roof over their heads. Then later, you say because Singaporeans are not giving birth quickly enough, we need to import foreigners. Vicious cycle!

    No one is asking the government to heavily subsidize their flats or cost of living. Many times, the government and some people have the misconception that Singaporeans yearn for a nanny state where they are spoon fed. That is certainly not true. All we are asking is that they don't be overly profit-minded. Take care of the people and ensure there are sufficient HDB flat prices to go around and the prices are stabilized. For too long, the government have neglected this point.

    Sure, like all things, nobody expects HDB flat prices to remain stagnant. There's inflation. But how could the government allow the prices to swing erratically in such a short time? This is public housing! If it happens to private, no one cares. But surely the main aim of HDB has to be reiterated? That is, to allow the common citizen to have access to affordable housing. How can a 25 to 30-year housing loan for a small $450,000 flat be considered affordable? (Just an example.)

    In addition, instead of building more BTO flats, they went ahead with fanciful DBSS flats where private developers were given the advantage of designing and pricing their flats. The highest record was $880,000 in Tampines! Ridiculous! Tons of people are queuing for a basic flat, and here they are, trying to make more money with the developers through DBSS flats?!

    Remember, the government here are God-like, they can do things however they want to! At least, build more BTO flats when clearly, there was a need. Did they intentionally allow the prices to go up high for some ulterior motives? This one you judge yourself. Buyers use their CPF money to buy their flats. When HDB flat prices are very high, they got to channel their hard-earned money to the HDB loans. So as some say, money into your pocket every month from your salary, money out to the government to pay for your exorbitantly priced flats.

    All that I have mentioned above are real. You can do some research on past newspaper articles and Goggle search to verify.

    Thank goodness we have opposition parties in the general election. Though I won't say all of them are capable, at least, their mere existence let the ruling government wake up from their slumber/haughty behavior sometimes and keep things moving where the commoners are not disadvantaged.
    Define stability? That is what should the price of a HDB flat? This has been debated for years. In Lawrence's case, he bought his BTO 5 years at around $200k. Is $200k affordable or reasonable?

    Now it is valued at around $580k. If you think that this price is exuberant, then what price should it be? If you ask Lawrence, will he sell cheap or based on market rate? The answer is obvious.

    You need a collective action from majority of Singaporeans to bring the prices of HDB flat to a sustainable level. Unfortunately, like in a "Prisoner Dilemma" game theory, nobody wanted to start first or rather reluctant to do it.

  18. #78

    Default

    I think affordable housing can be priced based on a multiple of the lower 25 percentile earnings as a bench mark.

    This will give an idea if things are getting too expensive and if garmen should take action to increase supply or reduce demand.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Is property price finally comes down? Anyone went property investment talk?

    Quote Originally Posted by lkf73 View Post
    I think affordable housing can be priced based on a multiple of the lower 25 percentile earnings as a bench mark.

    This will give an idea if things are getting too expensive and if garmen should take action to increase supply or reduce demand.
    Hello, if you peg the prices of new HDB flats to income of households that qualify to buy them, this would only lower the value of Sg's homes. This is a asset devaluation policy, as opposed to an asset enhancement policy.

    There is also nothing wrong giving sgreans an asset, and making sure that asset grows in value. We should be proud of this asset enhancement policy, that gives sgreans a home an also an asset.


  20. #80

    Default

    I subscribe to the thought that HDB flats are meant for the masses and should not be used to make money.

    Many views and none are wrong. Just different

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