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Thread: D7100 or D610

  1. #41
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    I am using 70-200mm and 300mm f4L lens. I think the main issue is not with the camera body but with the lenses. When you use a fx lens on a dx camera, you get very similar result... although I do recognised that most FF camera produce more details as compared to cropped sensor with similar mega-pixels... and I also recognised that most cropped sensor do not produce as clean an image as compared to a FF sensor of the same era.
    Actually, you are wrong in that sense. In birding, DX gives you a lot more details than FX. Even both camera have the same number of pixels, the DX camera will have higher pixel density for a smaller view. Which means you get a lot more details. In birding, it all comes down to reach. The more reach you have, the more details you get. In other words, the bigger you get the bird on the frame, the clearer the picture will be, the more details you see.

    Some people might ask, why not just move closer to the bird with FX cam?? That way you get more details. Of course. But when shooting birds, can you move closer? Birds have safe distance. Once you get past that safety zone, it will fly away and there goes your picture. So the further away you can stay from the bird, the better chance you can get it more calm and stable. So the longer your reach, the better that is too.

    DOF is also a good point you mentioned. Sometimes you want a deeper DOF. The only way you can do it is to drop aperture. But a crop cam gives you a deeper DOF (since you have to stand further back for the same FOV), without the need to drop aperture and sacrifice shutter speed.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 14th April 2014 at 12:47 AM.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Actually, you are wrong in that sense. In birding, DX gives you a lot more details than FX. Even both camera have the same number of pixels, the DX camera will have higher pixel density for a smaller view. Which means you get a lot more details. In birding, it all comes down to reach. The more reach you have, the more details you get. In other words, the bigger you get the bird on the frame, the clearer the picture will be, the more details you see.

    Some people might ask, why not just move closer to the bird with FX cam?? That way you get more details. Of course. But when shooting birds, can you move closer? Birds have safe distance. Once you get past that safety zone, it will fly away and there goes your picture. So the further away you can stay from the bird, the better chance you can get it more calm and stable. So the longer your reach, the better that is too.

    DOF is also a good point you mentioned. Sometimes you want a deeper DOF. The only way you can do it is to drop aperture. But a crop cam gives you a deeper DOF (since you have to stand further back for the same FOV), without the need to drop aperture and sacrifice shutter speed.
    Ahhh... food for thought... I am thinking of upgrading for a while now... Now that you mention and what you have mentioned make heaps of sense...

    Thanks... you just save my pocket from breaking

    Look like, I will be saving up for a 400mm f5.6L or the Sigma 300mm f2.8.
    Last edited by rhino123; 14th April 2014 at 09:02 AM.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
    My lousy shots

  3. #43
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    Ahhh... food for thought... I am thinking of upgrading for a while now... Now that you mention and what you have mentioned make heaps of sense...

    Thanks... you just save my pocket from breaking

    Look like, I will be saving up for a 400mm f5.6L or the Sigma 300mm f2.8.
    FX has its place in birding too, but make sure you already have good reach. Top end models liek D4 1DX will give you very high FPS and superior AF tracking, so you can catch fast birds in action/flight.

    And a word of advice, skip the sigma 300/2.8. Go for a used Canon 300/2.8 (or non VR 300/2.8 for Nikon).
    Last edited by daredevil123; 14th April 2014 at 02:22 PM.

  4. #44

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by BT5100 View Post
    got a good offer n I purchase the d600 instead, despite the oil n dust issue.

    there r members saying the iq between d5100 n d7100 is ver similar. but trying d600 with my same lens -90mm f2.8 n 70-300 vc usd, I can tell u the colour, dof n sharpness have improve tremendously.


    if image sensor, camera n lens r not an important factor of taking a great pic, and its the person behind the camera who play the most important part, then I reckon a p7100 vs a d4s photographer with the same skill, should not make any diff.

    then y ppl spend thousands of dollars on 1 len n camera?

    Im glad that I make a rite decision
    the most important is the skill follow by equipments.
    if u have both,u are the winner.
    I have a friend who use D7100 with 70-200mm and 300 F4 lens to shoot BIF which is his speciality.
    his favourite is kingfisher expecially Common Kingfisher which is very fast.
    he had tried D4 and D4S and Canon top models 1Dx and 1D4 recently in Taiwan(from his Taiwanese friends) for flight shots.
    he said he was able to achieve higher keeper rate on these models against his D7100.
    however,even with his current gears he had taken much better photos than some who use top equipments.
    I would say his gears are limiting him as he is still a young student,he still can't afford higher end equipments yet.

  5. #45

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by BT5100 View Post
    in the previous post, 1 member mention he have no much problem taking wild life with his d5100.

    btw if given a scenario,

    A guy uses d40 with tamron 70-300mm macro

    vs

    B guy uses D4s n nikon 300mm f2.8 vr2

    both with the same skill n asked to take wild life pic atthe same place, time. who do u think will accomplish the mission or accomplish it in shorter time?

    this is a tricky question which may not be what u thought.
    same skill means no skill,medium skill or skillful?
    if both no skills,both will not achieve the mission.
    if both have medium skills,probably luck counts.
    if both are skillful,the one with the best equipments will win.
    so which one is u?

    and now put it this way.
    both are skillful and one use D4s with tamron 70-300mm macro and other use D40 with 300mm F2.8,
    so which one will accomplish the mission first?
    Last edited by Turbonetics; 14th April 2014 at 09:15 PM.

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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    I have used D7100 and D4. Also D800e and owned D700, D300s, D90, D40x in the past.

    can you tell the difference? Tell me which is shot with D4 and which is shot with D7100?

    1.


    2.


    3.


    4.


    In the end, only your skill and know how matters. when you buy a camera like D4, then main things are the speed, AF and other factors. Hope you have good luck tracking birds in flight and small fast active birds with the D600. D7100 AF and tracking will blow the D600 away.
    So up to now, no one can guess the answer? TS also give up already?

    So far we have these guesses:

    1x say only #2 was shot with D4. The rest shot with D7100.
    1x say only #1 and #3 were shot with D4. The rest with D7100
    Last edited by daredevil123; 14th April 2014 at 09:02 PM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    So up to now, no one can guess the answer? TS also give up already?

    So far we have these guesses:

    1x say only #2 was shot with D4. The rest shot with D7100.
    1x say only #1 and #3 were shot with D4. The rest with D7100
    seriously i think its almost impossible to tell,especially we have not seen the real shooting condition of the environment and the settings used for these shots.
    Last edited by Turbonetics; 14th April 2014 at 09:11 PM.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbonetics View Post
    seriously i think its almost impossible to tell,especially we have not seen the real shooting condition of the environment.
    Bingo! Thanks bro, you know what I am getting at. You are one experienced and skillful birder. That is why you understand. There is a place for both FF and APS-C. In the end, a lot depends on the situation at hand.

    The answer is: #1 and #3 were shot with D7100. #2 and #4 were shot with D4. Just want to make a point that the apparent IQ difference of a APS-C versus FF is not as evident and simple as it seems.

    BTW, I am not an experienced birder. I only started birding end of last year unlike great birder photographers like Turbo here.

    In case anyone is interested to know here are the shooting parameters for each shot:

    #1 - D7100, ISO 2000, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/800s
    #2 - D4, ISO 500, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/640s
    #3 - D7100, ISO 2000, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/200s
    #4 - D4, ISO 3200, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/500s
    Last edited by daredevil123; 14th April 2014 at 09:19 PM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Bingo! Thanks bro, you know what I am getting at. You are one experienced and skillful birder. That is why you understand. There is a place for both FF and APS-C. In the end, a lot depends on the situation at hand.

    The answer is: #1 and #3 were shot with D7100. #2 and #4 were shot with D4. Just want to make a point that the apparent IQ difference of a APS-C versus FF is not as evident and simple as it seems.

    BTW, I am not an experienced birder. I only started birding end of last year unlike great birder photographers like Turbo here.

    In case anyone is interested to know here are the shooting parameters for each shot:

    #1 - D7100, ISO 2000, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/800s
    #2 - D4, ISO 500, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/640s
    #3 - D7100, ISO 2000, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/200s
    #4 - D4, ISO 3200, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/500s
    yes,i understand what u are driving at.
    iam still a green horn compare to many others and still has more to learn in bird photography.
    anyway,this guessing game applies to any photography not only birds.

  10. #50

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    And a word of advice, skip the sigma 300/2.8. Go for a used Canon 300/2.8 (or non VR 300/2.8 for Nikon).

    I agree on that.

  11. #51

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Actually, you are wrong in that sense. In birding, DX gives you a lot more details than FX. Even both camera have the same number of pixels, the DX camera will have higher pixel density for a smaller view. Which means you get a lot more details. In birding, it all comes down to reach. The more reach you have, the more details you get. In other words, the bigger you get the bird on the frame, the clearer the picture will be, the more details you see.

    Some people might ask, why not just move closer to the bird with FX cam?? That way you get more details. Of course. But when shooting birds, can you move closer? Birds have safe distance. Once you get past that safety zone, it will fly away and there goes your picture. So the further away you can stay from the bird, the better chance you can get it more calm and stable. So the longer your reach, the better that is too.

    DOF is also a good point you mentioned. Sometimes you want a deeper DOF. The only way you can do it is to drop aperture. But a crop cam gives you a deeper DOF (since you have to stand further back for the same FOV), without the need to drop aperture and sacrifice shutter speed.
    Speaking as a Canon user...Technically APSC which gives longer reach should have better details.
    But after using the 1Dx,7D and 1D4 on a same lens,i don't really feel the 7D is really sharper(not side by side comparison though).
    and also subject covering more of the frame has more details is true to certain extend only.
    example a bird measuring 15cm and u can shoot at 8m on a 300mm lens which covers 40% of the frame
    and now with a 2x extender slap on which covers 80% of the frame. I had guess the bare lens may be sharper or similar.

  12. #52

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    I make a wild guess. Only the last pic is shot with D4. Dun ask me why, is my gut feeling LOL...

  13. #53
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    FX has its place in birding too, but make sure you already have good reach. Top end models liek D4 1DX will give you very high FPS and superior AF tracking, so you can catch fast birds in action/flight.

    And a word of advice, skip the sigma 300/2.8. Go for a used Canon 300/2.8 (or non VR 300/2.8 for Nikon).
    Hmm... oh well... Canon 300mm f2.8L is kinda too out of reach for me at the moment. I think I will keep to saving up for the 400mm f5.6L. A bit slower, but I think I can manage it well in good lighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    #1 - D7100, ISO 2000, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/800s
    #2 - D4, ISO 500, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/640s
    #3 - D7100, ISO 2000, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/200s
    #4 - D4, ISO 3200, 600mm F5.6 (300/2.8 + 2xTC), 1/500s
    Quote Originally Posted by lewissac View Post
    I make a wild guess. Only the last pic is shot with D4. Dun ask me why, is my gut feeling LOL...
    Bro. Daredevil already said that #2 and #4 are shot with D4.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
    My lousy shots

  14. #54

    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    Hmm... oh well... Canon 300mm f2.8L is kinda too out of reach for me at the moment. I think I will keep to saving up for the 400mm f5.6L. A bit slower, but I think I can manage it well in good lighting.






    Bro. Daredevil already said that #2 and #4 are shot with D4.

    Oops. Overlooked that there is 3rd page of this thread.. Paiseh..

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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbonetics View Post
    Speaking as a Canon user...Technically APSC which gives longer reach should have better details.
    But after using the 1Dx,7D and 1D4 on a same lens,i don't really feel the 7D is really sharper(not side by side comparison though).
    and also subject covering more of the frame has more details is true to certain extend only.
    example a bird measuring 15cm and u can shoot at 8m on a 300mm lens which covers 40% of the frame
    and now with a 2x extender slap on which covers 80% of the frame. I had guess the bare lens may be sharper or similar.
    I missed the TC part. But on APS-C versus FX, is slightly different from my experience. It is also more applicable if both APSC and FF are from same generation. 7D has been needing that new upgrade for very very long now. D7100 and D4 is much more closer in terms of generation. D7100 is already very close to D700 in noise performance once downsized to match 12MP.

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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    I am also a complete newbie to both photography and birding, as many of the respondents to this thread can testify since they have given me much advice. Ultimately, every camera even a handphone camera can take shots. Also, every camera is a compromise - you want a light and easy to carry camera, you compromise image quality in the form of a smaller sensor; you want better low light performance with a wider field of view, you compromise on reach with a full frame. A skillful photographer not only understands these compromises and picks the best tool for the job, he also understands his subject and surrounding conditions enough to be able to manipulate his chosen tool to achieve the shot he wants, even if circumstances force him to choose a less than ideal tool.

    As shown by dd123, when there's a skillful photographer behind the camera, most if not all viewers can't even tell which camera he chose. This point has been raised and proven several times to me over several threads with different photos, from birding to macro to landscape. I've seen spectacular landscape shots with mirrorless cameras using a micro four-thirds sensor, and crappy ones using a full frame - but full frame is supposed to be the best for landscape!

    So for now, maybe buying a full frame has satisfied you, and you like the images better perhaps because you find it has better dynamic range or less noise. However, until and unless you improve your photography skills, you will find yourself skill capped and the "boost" given to you by the new camera will only bring you forward so far. Over time, if you don't improve, you may even find yourself back in the situation admiring others with a crop sensor because they can "reach" much nearer to the birds and fill their frame than you can, and their mastery over photographic skills end up producing better shots than you. Even award winning nature photographers use crop sensors to produce their award winning shots.

    For me, being an absolute newbie, I am glad to have received advice from the pros here like dd123, Turbonetics, rhino123 etc as well as on other forums. I recently upgraded my body, and was considering between a 70D and a 5D3. Using your logic, I would have upgraded to a 5D3 with no doubt. However, with the advice given by the pros, I chose the 70D to upgrade from my 600D. Immediately upon upgrade, I already felt overwhelmed slightly by the new features. Faster and more versatile AF, much more convenient control over settings, etc. Took me awhile before I could even start shooting basic shots, let alone master the camera. I personally feel that I'm still growing into this camera. In fact, I think that the shots I took with my 600D last week (having used and grown into the camera and developed my limited skill with the camera over a few months) are better than the shots that I took with my new 70D this week. However, I can also tell that with time to practice, I will be able to achieve more with my 70D than I did with my 600D which I already started to feel limited by. Perhaps I'm just a slow learner hence failed to use my 70D properly the first time I took it out for a shoot? I think a 5D3 would have definitely overwhelmed me much more. I probably would have been able to shoot nicer looking pictures out of the box due to the "better" sensor, but would have stagnated at the same level for much longer, not to mention losing the 1.6x reach, which is essential in my opinion to a newbie birder who hasn't mastered the tricks of birding and getting closer to a bird.

    Aside from reach, the 70D also has other advantages good for nature photography and birding such as faster fps for BIF shots, articulating screen and dual pixel AF to allow more convenience in getting that low level or hard to reach shot, lighter body so that you can handhold longer before your arms give way to fatigue etc. All these don't show up in "image quality" comparisons in a vacuum, but end up affecting your image quality anyway. The money I saved not getting the 5D3 body can go into getting me a good tripod and gimbal head with spare change left over. This further improves my image quality in ways that cannot be measured by sensor alone.

    Sorry for the long rambling post, but all in all, I think OP is wrong in criticizing the pros for giving proper advice. If you have an unlimited budget then sure, get a D4s with an 800mm lens + tc and the best tripod with gimbal head, and you will never be limited by your equipment. However, ultimately it is the skill of the person behind the camera that matters most and that is what the pros are trying to get you to see. Learn your craft and what your tools do before upgrading your tools.


    P.S. it isn't true that the pros always advise to get the "lousier" camera. I remember in one of my threads dd123 gave the example of one of his friends who went ahead to get the best of the best gear (Canon 1dx etc.) and developed his skill from there. The logic there being that if he gets the best gear from the outset, then none of his errors can be blamed on the gear, and he knows exactly how he needs to improve his skill based on the shots taken. That is a valid approach too provided you have the budget. Point is that the pros here are likely to analyze your situation before recommending what they think is the best for you.

    P.P.S Turbonetics, if you're considering the 400mm 5.6L, why not consider the Tamron 150-600? It is versatile as a zoom, has almost as good optics (reviews place it as equal to or better than the 100-400L, and equal or slightly worse than a 300mm f/2.8 + 2x tc) and it reaches further. I may be wrong, but at 400mm the Tamron is f/5.6 too. I am really enjoying mine!

  17. #57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by illumnae View Post
    I am also a complete newbie to both photography and birding, as many of the respondents to this thread can testify since they have given me much advice. Ultimately, every camera even a handphone camera can take shots. Also, every camera is a compromise - you want a light and easy to carry camera, you compromise image quality in the form of a smaller sensor; you want better low light performance with a wider field of view, you compromise on reach with a full frame. A skillful photographer not only understands these compromises and picks the best tool for the job, he also understands his subject and surrounding conditions enough to be able to manipulate his chosen tool to achieve the shot he wants, even if circumstances force him to choose a less than ideal tool. As shown by dd123, when there's a skillful photographer behind the camera, most if not all viewers can't even tell which camera he chose. This point has been raised and proven several times to me over several threads with different photos, from birding to macro to landscape. I've seen spectacular landscape shots with mirrorless cameras using a micro four-thirds sensor, and crappy ones using a full frame - but full frame is supposed to be the best for landscape! So for now, maybe buying a full frame has satisfied you, and you like the images better perhaps because you find it has better dynamic range or less noise. However, until and unless you improve your photography skills, you will find yourself skill capped and the "boost" given to you by the new camera will only bring you forward so far. Over time, if you don't improve, you may even find yourself back in the situation admiring others with a crop sensor because they can "reach" much nearer to the birds and fill their frame than you can, and their mastery over photographic skills end up producing better shots than you. Even award winning nature photographers use crop sensors to produce their award winning shots. For me, being an absolute newbie, I am glad to have received advice from the pros here like dd123, Turbonetics, rhino123 etc as well as on other forums. I recently upgraded my body, and was considering between a 70D and a 5D3. Using your logic, I would have upgraded to a 5D3 with no doubt. However, with the advice given by the pros, I chose the 70D to upgrade from my 600D. Immediately upon upgrade, I already felt overwhelmed slightly by the new features. Faster and more versatile AF, much more convenient control over settings, etc. Took me awhile before I could even start shooting basic shots, let alone master the camera. I personally feel that I'm still growing into this camera. In fact, I think that the shots I took with my 600D last week (having used and grown into the camera and developed my limited skill with the camera over a few months) are better than the shots that I took with my new 70D this week. However, I can also tell that with time to practice, I will be able to achieve more with my 70D than I did with my 600D which I already started to feel limited by. Perhaps I'm just a slow learner hence failed to use my 70D properly the first time I took it out for a shoot? I think a 5D3 would have definitely overwhelmed me much more. I probably would have been able to shoot nicer looking pictures out of the box due to the "better" sensor, but would have stagnated at the same level for much longer, not to mention losing the 1.6x reach, which is essential in my opinion to a newbie birder who hasn't mastered the tricks of birding and getting closer to a bird. Aside from reach, the 70D also has other advantages good for nature photography and birding such as faster fps for BIF shots, articulating screen and dual pixel AF to allow more convenience in getting that low level or hard to reach shot, lighter body so that you can handhold longer before your arms give way to fatigue etc. All these don't show up in "image quality" comparisons in a vacuum, but end up affecting your image quality anyway. The money I saved not getting the 5D3 body can go into getting me a good tripod and gimbal head with spare change left over. This further improves my image quality in ways that cannot be measured by sensor alone. Sorry for the long rambling post, but all in all, I think OP is wrong in criticizing the pros for giving proper advice. If you have an unlimited budget then sure, get a D4s with an 800mm lens + tc and the best tripod with gimbal head, and you will never be limited by your equipment. However, ultimately it is the skill of the person behind the camera that matters most and that is what the pros are trying to get you to see. Learn your craft and what your tools do before upgrading your tools. P.S. it isn't true that the pros always advise to get the "lousier" camera. I remember in one of my threads dd123 gave the example of one of his friends who went ahead to get the best of the best gear (Canon 1dx etc.) and developed his skill from there. The logic there being that if he gets the best gear from the outset, then none of his errors can be blamed on the gear, and he knows exactly how he needs to improve his skill based on the shots taken. That is a valid approach too provided you have the budget. Point is that the pros here are likely to analyze your situation before recommending what they think is the best for you. P.P.S Turbonetics, if you're considering the 400mm 5.6L, why not consider the Tamron 150-600? It is versatile as a zoom, has almost as good optics (reviews place it as equal to or better than the 100-400L, and equal or slightly worse than a 300mm f/2.8 + 2x tc) and it reaches further. I may be wrong, but at 400mm the Tamron is f/5.6 too. I am really enjoying mine!
    Glad to hear that u have absorb advices from CS and make a more suitable decision for your needs. Yes an experience photographer who had tried different gears will analyze the situations and needs to advise what is best. Behind every decent shots lies many failed shots..sometimes seeing my failed shots I would think of upgrading...but before I consider it seriously,I always asked myself why others using the same equipments or lousier can get better shots than me? Then I keep telling myself it's the person behind it. Therefore now iam still using old equipments.

    Anyway,iam not the one getting the 400/5.6 lens.
    I just sold mine away.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by illumnae View Post
    I am also a complete newbie to both photography and birding, as many of the respondents to this thread can testify since they have given me much advice. Ultimately, every camera even a handphone camera can take shots. Also, every camera is a compromise - you want a light and easy to carry camera, you compromise image quality in the form of a smaller sensor; you want better low light performance with a wider field of view, you compromise on reach with a full frame. A skillful photographer not only understands these compromises and picks the best tool for the job, he also understands his subject and surrounding conditions enough to be able to manipulate his chosen tool to achieve the shot he wants, even if circumstances force him to choose a less than ideal tool.

    As shown by dd123, when there's a skillful photographer behind the camera, most if not all viewers can't even tell which camera he chose. This point has been raised and proven several times to me over several threads with different photos, from birding to macro to landscape. I've seen spectacular landscape shots with mirrorless cameras using a micro four-thirds sensor, and crappy ones using a full frame - but full frame is supposed to be the best for landscape!

    So for now, maybe buying a full frame has satisfied you, and you like the images better perhaps because you find it has better dynamic range or less noise. However, until and unless you improve your photography skills, you will find yourself skill capped and the "boost" given to you by the new camera will only bring you forward so far. Over time, if you don't improve, you may even find yourself back in the situation admiring others with a crop sensor because they can "reach" much nearer to the birds and fill their frame than you can, and their mastery over photographic skills end up producing better shots than you. Even award winning nature photographers use crop sensors to produce their award winning shots.

    For me, being an absolute newbie, I am glad to have received advice from the pros here like dd123, Turbonetics, rhino123 etc as well as on other forums. I recently upgraded my body, and was considering between a 70D and a 5D3. Using your logic, I would have upgraded to a 5D3 with no doubt. However, with the advice given by the pros, I chose the 70D to upgrade from my 600D. Immediately upon upgrade, I already felt overwhelmed slightly by the new features. Faster and more versatile AF, much more convenient control over settings, etc. Took me awhile before I could even start shooting basic shots, let alone master the camera. I personally feel that I'm still growing into this camera. In fact, I think that the shots I took with my 600D last week (having used and grown into the camera and developed my limited skill with the camera over a few months) are better than the shots that I took with my new 70D this week. However, I can also tell that with time to practice, I will be able to achieve more with my 70D than I did with my 600D which I already started to feel limited by. Perhaps I'm just a slow learner hence failed to use my 70D properly the first time I took it out for a shoot? I think a 5D3 would have definitely overwhelmed me much more. I probably would have been able to shoot nicer looking pictures out of the box due to the "better" sensor, but would have stagnated at the same level for much longer, not to mention losing the 1.6x reach, which is essential in my opinion to a newbie birder who hasn't mastered the tricks of birding and getting closer to a bird.

    Aside from reach, the 70D also has other advantages good for nature photography and birding such as faster fps for BIF shots, articulating screen and dual pixel AF to allow more convenience in getting that low level or hard to reach shot, lighter body so that you can handhold longer before your arms give way to fatigue etc. All these don't show up in "image quality" comparisons in a vacuum, but end up affecting your image quality anyway. The money I saved not getting the 5D3 body can go into getting me a good tripod and gimbal head with spare change left over. This further improves my image quality in ways that cannot be measured by sensor alone.

    Sorry for the long rambling post, but all in all, I think OP is wrong in criticizing the pros for giving proper advice. If you have an unlimited budget then sure, get a D4s with an 800mm lens + tc and the best tripod with gimbal head, and you will never be limited by your equipment. However, ultimately it is the skill of the person behind the camera that matters most and that is what the pros are trying to get you to see. Learn your craft and what your tools do before upgrading your tools.


    P.S. it isn't true that the pros always advise to get the "lousier" camera. I remember in one of my threads dd123 gave the example of one of his friends who went ahead to get the best of the best gear (Canon 1dx etc.) and developed his skill from there. The logic there being that if he gets the best gear from the outset, then none of his errors can be blamed on the gear, and he knows exactly how he needs to improve his skill based on the shots taken. That is a valid approach too provided you have the budget. Point is that the pros here are likely to analyze your situation before recommending what they think is the best for you.

    P.P.S Turbonetics, if you're considering the 400mm 5.6L, why not consider the Tamron 150-600? It is versatile as a zoom, has almost as good optics (reviews place it as equal to or better than the 100-400L, and equal or slightly worse than a 300mm f/2.8 + 2x tc) and it reaches further. I may be wrong, but at 400mm the Tamron is f/5.6 too. I am really enjoying mine!
    Great to read this. You have the right attitude and mindset.

    BTW Turbo is currently on much more capable gear than the 400/5.6 or Tamron 150-600.

    I am considering the Tamron for a 2nd handhold/travel birding lens.

    BTW, I am not a pro birder. I am actually a newbie in birding. Just started end of last year. Pardon my lousy shots.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 15th April 2014 at 12:48 PM.

  19. #59
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbonetics View Post
    Glad to hear that u have absorb advices from CS and make a more suitable decision for your needs. Yes an experience photographer who had tried different gears will analyze the situations and needs to advise what is best. Behind every decent shots lies many failed shots..sometimes seeing my failed shots I would think of upgrading...but before I consider it seriously,I always asked myself why others using the same equipments or lousier can get better shots than me? Then I keep telling myself it's the person behind it. Therefore now iam still using old equipments.

    Anyway,iam not the one getting the 400/5.6 lens.
    I just sold mine away.
    Alamak! Shld have bought from you! Haiz...
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
    My lousy shots

  20. #60
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: D7100 or D610

    Quote Originally Posted by Turbonetics View Post
    Glad to hear that u have absorb advices from CS and make a more suitable decision for your needs. Yes an experience photographer who had tried different gears will analyze the situations and needs to advise what is best. Behind every decent shots lies many failed shots..sometimes seeing my failed shots I would think of upgrading...but before I consider it seriously,I always asked myself why others using the same equipments or lousier can get better shots than me? Then I keep telling myself it's the person behind it. Therefore now iam still using old equipments.

    Anyway,iam not the one getting the 400/5.6 lens.
    I just sold mine away.

    +1 People see the nice photos others post and think they can get the same quality of shots if only they have the equipment. No one sees the sweats, tears, curses and pain of the fingers from pressing delete button.

    There is no shortcut. There is no magic settings. There is no magic equipment combo.

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