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Thread: Sarong Party Girl

  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by denniskee
    so knowing that the net is a public domain, friends and relatives may come across the site, news may blow the horn, but its still responsible for one to do or post such stuff to the net?

    how about a lady one day finds out the father, brother, HUSBAND or SON is a gay and his prono is on the net?

    this will be the last of my post here, like i mantioned, dont pass light remark just because it did not happen to you.

    but than its freedom of speech here, everybody has their right to say their believe is correct. but read my post carefully, i dont say how is right or wrong, who am i judge.
    I don't get it, so what if someone finds out your son is a gay or a porn star?
    If my son chose to become a porn star because of his talent for keeping his genital erect, his genitalia size and his liberal view of sex, that does not mean I as a father taught him how to become a porn star. Neither does him being a gay say that I am gay.
    The only thing being a porn star with a big dick might reflect on me is that I as a father may have a big dick due to genetic reasons passed down to my son.

    I'm curious, do you consider that what forms you as a person in life is your family, or have you been more influenced by other things such as your experiences with people and society at large.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benign
    Yin, I dunno wat to say. That question was addressed to Mattlock. It came from his previous posting...... Now you ended up answering it.
    hey,benign, yes
    I've done alot of things which would be unacceptable to many people. Some things I regret most things I don't. Which is why I'd like to think that it isn't good to act as if we're all so pure and should always be doing the right thing. People say and do things which are unacceptable to other people but I think it is better to ask why it seems unacceptable to us and debate it out rather than falling back on "asian values" and humiliating someone's family.

    I've also realised that alot of poeple will disapprove of another person's actions sometimes because secretly inside they desire to be like that person. The attraction of sensational news may be partly due to this: it is a way for people to live out their supressed desires.

  3. #83

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    benign>oh my, i'm sorry that i poked my nose in the wrong post then. however, go on and satisfy your curiosity. come back when you have evidence to support your idea(s).

    denniskee>dear dennis, as i've said before. i've been in such sticky situation. at least a wife who found out that her husband is posting nude photographs of himself won't go on to the papers and expose him to the world. oh maybe she would get angry and chop off her husband's genitals, hop on to the nearest police station and surrendered herself. i'm not sayin that the family should let her be. they can remind her that she's doing something unacceptable(not necessarily wrong) but in the end, it's up to herself as a person gifted with ability to weigh out right and wrong. free to express, but understand and accept your consequences.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yin
    ah pao>i have a friend who is a child of a kept wife. his father's legal wife hated the kept wife and her child(which is totally normal) my friend, who definitely didn't choose to be born like that, has to endure being looked down at. people at the church, people at his neighbourhood... all knew about his status. all of them shunned my friend and his mother. i know it sounds like a drama... but they're a korean family, and the korean community in their town is small... and things like that happen.

    go through the whole ordeal together, of course. my point is that people shouldn't go and point fingers at every single family member and insult them for things they're not guilty of. plus, it's not their business. they should keep their nose out of it. unless the whole family is guilty of the crime, i don't see why they should be exposed, full name and school and everything, including occupation, to the public.

    also, individuals within a family have their own secrets they don't share with other family members. it's a common thing.

    it's the freedom of expression. she's free to post whatever she likes up there, unless stated otherwise by regulations of the service provider. you're free to voice your disapproval of her as well, of course. however, you don't have the right to force her from expressing herself.

    and yes, the local media was just looking for scantcladtional news to rack in dollars. i can't say that they're fools though just a bit on the inconsiderate and nosy side.
    Yin, things go both ways. Freedom of expression doesn't mean that you can get away with people talking behind her back or even right infront. We respect the blogger's right to her freedom but it hard to expect the society not to comment. Freedom of speech meant that its the common people's right to gripe about this issue too. Whether you supported her decision(like yin) or disapprove(like Benign) is judgment passed by you all regardless of yah or nay.

    By dissociating a family unit to individuals is like separating the society of all the common factors/glue like culture, race(not necessary nowadays) or religion(not necessary nowadays too) on a common ground. Now to your comments about why an individual's action will always involves the family as well, simple. We are born as individual but yet part of the family and society. If this is not the case, an infant will be left to fend for him/herself after birth as an true individual, like a crocodile's or turtle. Society is an enlargement of a family, a collection of family. It is true that exposing the other family unit to a action of an individual belonging to the same family is in a sense, not fair. Perhaps that a invisible judgement aka pressure on a individual to be responsible for his or her actions or risk harming their other family members. Your Korean friend and his mother is a example. His mother's action have led to your friend's being shunned as well. Is it his fault? No, of course not. But ask his mother whether she thought her action will involve her son and I am not so sure the answer will be yes. Ask her whether she'll do the same thing all over again if given another chance, I am sure it won't be yes. Nevertheless we still respect her decision but she and her son is the one who have to live with it.

    Don't get me wrong, I like her blog as seen in my previous post. She has engaged a very good photographer to frame her in very stunning photos. Quote from her:

    *I never wanted to turn into the voice of every anti-conservative out there. Iím not conservative myself, in fact, I am ultra liberal, mostly because I just donít give a damn about anything or anyone, unless they mean a lot to me of course. In short, I donít care what the rest of the world thinks. I appreciate good thoughts and encouraging emails, but if youíre on the criticism end, guess what? You matter squat. *

    That contradicts itself so much. The sentence of 'I don't give a damn about' vs 'unless they mean alot to me'. I wanna support her cause but she needs to stand by her believes. If she really 'don't give a damn', then why take down the nude photos? They are really well taken.

  5. #85

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    i think this getting abit out of hand .. and quite OT liao ..

    +1 before lock

  6. #86

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    It's a very strange time now in the world and moreso for Singapore. I believe that the whole issue of nudity is just a symptom of something else. There are several issues here bigger than the nudity itself:
    The dichotomy between the conservative and the liberal.
    The mistaken notion of freedom of speech.

    I believe that most of us (this forum) are relatively young with relatively liberal views and most would have the view of 'If it doesn't harm anyone, then we do as we will.'

    Most of us (this forum) would have no problem with nudity and sexuality. I don't see why people who take photographs would have a problem with the human form as a work of art.

    Unfortunately, that is not so for a majority of society and we don't realise it.

    The majority is usually conservative. If we're lucky then maybe half of society is conservative and half of it is liberal.

    We all have a tendency to get more conservative as we grow older because it's the easiest way to live a life. You want as little change as possible and fear of the sexual is one of the most prominent feature that a conservative has.

    You don't want to have to explain to your kids what sex is about, what artistic nudity means; you just want to label it all bad until they get married and hope it stays that way until they do get married and figure out how to have kids of their own without any guidance from you. (not you the reader per se, of course)

    This dichotomy between the conservative and the liberal one of the biggest dilemmas that society has.

    Think about it.

    Would there be a problem if everyone was conservative? or if everyone was liberal?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We all want to express ourselves and now we have the means to do it on a massive scale; the internet.

    Previously, we would just gather with friends at a coffeeshop or a bar and let loose with our opinions good or bad and trash it out there and then. We would talk, feel happy to get things off our chest and we would go home and that would be that.

    Now, we communicate through Instant messaging, email, forums and blogging and who knows how many other forms of electronic mediums. We know that all these forms of communication are recorded in one form or another but it hasn't really sunk into the collective psyche yet. We think that just because it's electronic, we can remain anonymous and that just isn't true.

    It's the whole "It won't happen to me" syndrome happening all over again.

    We don't seem to realise that what we say will have repercussions, whether good or bad and those repercussions are magnified on different scales depending on the medium we choose to publish it on.

    Express a controversial statement to your friends over coffee and the worst that could happen is you have an argument with your friends.
    Express a controversial statement over the internet and things are in a totally different league.

    You cannot reasonably expect that nothing would happen if you decide to broadcast something that is controversial over a medium where potentially millions of people pass by everyday.

    It is naive thinking on anyone's part if they really think that nothing would happen if they posted something on the internet that was inflammatory and expect to get away with it.

    Everything we say on the internet is logged one way or another and there is no way the average person can remain anonymous. A hacker par excellence might be able to remain anonymous but not the average joe who sits down at his laptop at work and types in his blog while drinking his coffee.

    It is also unreasonable to expect that having the freedom of speech precludes us from having any responsibility over what we do or say. In fact, the reverse is more true; Having freedom of speech requires us to have a great amount of responsibility over what we say and having the courage to accept the consequences over what has been said or done.

    If you want to seek attention over the internet then fine, more power to you. But you cannot shy away from the consequences that will follow.

    Should we all stop posting?

    Of course not!

    But before anyone posts anything on a forum or a blog or email, try to think before your speak.

    I, of course, cannot be considered a role model for what I've just said. I've made more than my fair share of slips of the tongue and typewriter but I try to think about what I say most of the time and sometimes accidents do happen but you apologise and try to do the right thing as best as you can and move on with your life. That's all that anyone can do, really.
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  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expiredyoghurt
    i think this getting abit out of hand .. and quite OT liao ..

    +1 before lock

    actually, since this is the kopitiam and things haven't gotten anywhere near out of hand (no name calling etc.), it quite a good debate going on.

    admin should not lock this
    not yet anyway
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  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    Yin, things go both ways. Freedom of expression doesn't mean that you can get away with people talking behind her back or even right infront. We respect the blogger's right to her freedom but it hard to expect the society not to comment. Freedom of speech meant that its the common people's right to gripe about this issue too. Whether you supported her decision(like yin) or disapprove(like Benign) is judgment passed by you all regardless of yah or nay.

    By dissociating a family unit to individuals is like separating the society of all the common factors/glue like culture, race(not necessary nowadays) or religion(not necessary nowadays too) on a common ground. ..................
    good point, her freedom of speeches means she is open to criticism. But the problem here is the nature of society's reaction to her actions.
    not a matter of why her family is involved, but more a question of why does society have to drag her family into it?
    Family is the glue in many other cultures too but you don't see families dragged too often through the mud for the actions of individuals in many other countries. Is it a desirable trait for us to blame a person's family for a person's actions? I know that this is quite traditional, and it's common, but is it desirable?

    also, why lock this thread? it's a good issue that has been raised and we get to see different viewpoints on a polarizing issue. Expiredyoghurt, you never even contributed anything to the thread except wanting it locked. why?

  9. #89

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    The internet is still a grey area

    "Express a controversial statement to your friends over coffee and the worst that could happen is you have an argument with your friends.
    Express a controversial statement over the internet and things are in a totally different league."

    The great thing is that this "different league" has not been clearly defined yet.
    It's all about setting a precedent. Let's say someone actually gets sued for a statement made on a blog. This will set a precedent about the way blogs are treated from now on. If there is enough disapproval of people being sued for blogs, that may discourage people with the power to sue from suing bloggers.
    If we can make it such that the internet becomes an area of freedom for people to speak whatever they want (no matter if it's wrong or right) without the fear of anything more than the angry but logical rebuttal of another blogger or another person on a forum, this will allow more public discussion at least. I may not respect your opinion, but I respect your right to post something which I will disagree with, and then I will argue with you about that disagreeable post.

    "I believe that most of us (this forum) are relatively young with relatively liberal views and most would have the view of 'If it doesn't harm anyone, then we do as we will.'

    As much as I understand the views of the more conservative ones, I tend to believe that our young generation are the ones who will grow up and form the foundation of Singapore once the older generation has passed on, so we have a chance to push our ideas ahead. Hopefully we can get to the point where posting a nude picture on a personal blog does not become a firestorm, in the future.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manfred Ng
    I am impress by how she view the bible, how she view the world and her kind of values.

    Guys, if you keep an open mind and try reading the blog, i think you will have second thoughts about her views, the way the media put it is rather pessimistic. She obviously don't think that way and i feel that what she says are rather the facts of life.

    Her thought give me a new view in myself. I am very impress on how widely she read and her good command of english. I think she can be a very good presenter and sales person if she wants to.

    So be more open and more accomodating, this world will be a better place.
    .
    Well, someone does read and give some fair comments. Agree that she write with some substance. I just like to add that some of those swearing and 4-letter words does not gel well with the rest of the writing. I am sure there are better ways of expressing yourself.
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  11. #91
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattlock
    good point, her freedom of speeches means she is open to criticism. But the problem here is the nature of society's reaction to her actions.
    not a matter of why her family is involved, but more a question of why does society have to drag her family into it?
    Family is the glue in many other cultures too but you don't see families dragged too often through the mud for the actions of individuals in many other countries. Is it a desirable trait for us to blame a person's family for a person's actions? I know that this is quite traditional, and it's common, but is it desirable?

    also, why lock this thread? it's a good issue that has been raised and we get to see different viewpoints on a polarizing issue. Expiredyoghurt, you never even contributed anything to the thread except wanting it locked. why?
    Perhaps you didn't understand my words. That IS freedom of expression, freedom to judgement on all, you and me included. Whether you and me are in it or not unless you want to settle it by law. Its not about being fair or not its just how a society works. It will alway have people who work with it, pass their own judgments on it(like Benign) or people who are against it, also passing their judgments on it(like you). Very little on whether it is desirable or not. It does not matter whether you stand by the blogger or not, we are all in it.....

  12. #92
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    But I hope she stand by her own words and not bow down to pressures and retrack herself. That way, she'll gain more respect.

  13. #93

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    OOT: mattlock>posting nude pictures in personal blogs in japan is a... trend... somehow. *laughs* they call it erolog or something i can't quite recall. but it's definitely not artistic

    hommie>i've learnt not to judge anyone, nor call anyone a fool. besides, who are we to know what's the definite right and wrong? it's quite hard to do at first, but i'm trying. sometimes people do certain things for a certain reason we may/not comprehend. i have my slips and misses, but i try to understand about 'why' it happens. it's of course, my way of thinking

  14. #94
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yin
    hommie>i've learnt not to judge anyone, nor call anyone a fool. besides, who are we to know what's the definite right and wrong? it's quite hard to do at first, but i'm trying. sometimes people do certain things for a certain reason we may/not comprehend. i have my slips and misses, but i try to understand about 'why' it happens. it's of course, my way of thinking
    Me too, me too. I am not sure about you but I have always hoped not to pass judgments on others and others hopefully not do it on me. Fat Hope!

    That's me being too naive, haha! It just can't be helped, only time can tell the judges on judging others being judged one day themselves.

    Actually SPG's blog is pretty mild by XiaXue's standard, haha..

  15. #95

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    You sound quite disappointed with her succumbing to the very pressure which this freedom of judgement you are agreeable with brought about.

    Anyways, it is buried somewhere in the blog that she did it to follow her mum's wishes. That is respectable too. For someone who seems defiant and anti-institution, she still "listened" somehow.

    By the way, the notion of freedom of speech is not equitable to the freedom to judge, neither have the notion of freedom to judge (in this case, a public domain) had been universally accepted by societies and states. The process of passing judgement in public domains very often infringe on individual rights, which would mean imposing another person's freedom of existence (which incidentally is universally accepted). If passing judgement in a public domain is a universally accepted freedom, we won't have slander suits, libel cases, or need to employ judges.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    But I hope she stand by her own words and not bow down to pressures and retrack herself. That way, she'll gain more respect.

  16. #96
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinken
    You sound quite disappointed with her succumbing to the very pressure which this freedom of judgement you are agreeable with brought about.

    Anyways, it is buried somewhere in the blog that she did it to follow her mum's wishes. That is respectable too. For someone who seems defiant and anti-institution, she still "listened" somehow.

    By the way, the notion of freedom of speech is not equitable to the freedom to judge, neither have the notion of freedom to judge (in this case, a public domain) had been universally accepted by societies and states. The process of passing judgement in public domains very often infringe on individual rights, which would mean imposing another person's freedom of existence (which incidentally is universally accepted). If passing judgement in a public domain is a universally accepted freedom, we won't have slander suits, libel cases, or need to employ judges.
    Yup, I admire people who are able to stand by his or her words irregardless of the consequences. If she thinks that this is hard, welcome to the real world. It will get even harder in the future(not because of this).

    Is that I am liable to be sued by commenting on this issue? On what ground? In which part am I slandering or liable for libel suit? Your comment apon her

    'For someone who seems defiant and anti-institution, she still "listened" somehow.'

    doesn't that pass as judgment of approval on her action as well? Judgment doesn't necessary meant against an issue. If a judge ruled on your favour, does that mean judgment have not been passed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yin
    jsbn>funny how people assume that all family members are accountable for what 1 person in the family had done. it happens everywhere, not just in singapore... like a cancer.
    The good ol' days of the Manchu had not ended with Emperor Puyi's demise it seems. Family 'executions' seem to be ever popular. Fortunately we do not have an absolute monarchy rule in place here, if not, many family lines would disappear.

  18. #98

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    That's where the fine line lies. The concept of free speech is not well grasp by myself, I readily admit. However, even my counterparts from the states are also aware they often thread beyond their freedom of speech, when their so called "comments" intrude and impose on others. However, here, we are much easily let off, especially when our "comments" are not targeted at corporates or organisations who have deep pockets for lawyers.

    As to your comment on her "thinking this is hard", I come from a different perspective. She doesn't "give a sh*t" what people say. But she shrugs and rather "she (mum) wants them to go, they go". Be fair to her. On one hand people were bashing her actions as being irresponsbile and inconsiderate to her family. And when she does something that's responsible, people would see her as gutless.

    It's all a matter of perspective. You can always find positive and negative things to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    Yup, I admire people who are able to stand by his or her words irregardless of the consequences. If she thinks that this is hard, welcome to the real world. It will get even harder in the future(not because of this).

    Is that I am liable to be sued by commenting on this issue? On what ground? In which part am I slandering or liable for libel suit? Your comment apon her

    'For someone who seems defiant and anti-institution, she still "listened" somehow.'

    doesn't that pass as judgment of approval on her action as well? Judgment doesn't necessary meant against an issue. If a judge ruled on your favour, does that mean judgment have not been passed?

  19. #99
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinken
    That's where the fine line lies. The concept of free speech is not well grasp by myself, I readily admit. However, even my counterparts from the states are also aware they often thread beyond their freedom of speech, when their so called "comments" intrude and impose on others. However, here, we are much easily let off, especially when our "comments" are not targeted at corporates or organisations who have deep pockets for lawyers.

    As to your comment on her "thinking this is hard", I come from a different perspective. She doesn't "give a sh*t" what people say. But she shrugs and rather "she (mum) wants them to go, they go". Be fair to her. On one hand people were bashing her actions as being irresponsbile and inconsiderate to her family. And when she does something that's responsible, people would see her as gutless.

    It's all a matter of perspective. You can always find positive and negative things to say.
    Perhaps its best not capitalise on the expense of being on the net blog on such comments of 'I don't give a ****!' with admiring fans on her frankness in a society where people take your word for it. It would not have matter for those who wouldn't care less.

    For people who supported her for various different reason, some might be sympathic to her cause and concern. Others, who like me, like her frankness like XiaXue's blog felt a senses of very slight ting of betrayal. For people seen her as, you put it as 'defiant and anti-institution' and by her own account 'ultra-liberal' and 'I don't give a ****' is not high on being a moralist, suddenly decides to choose a character of filial from the list of moral files. Then why say that in a first place? That 'I don't give a ****!' is totally lost on her case. Neither is she a 'ultra-liberal' and 'defiant, anti-institution'.

  20. #100

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    The problem is definition.

    What is ultra liberal?
    What is liberal for that matter?
    What is anti-institution?
    Does ultra-liberal mean that she should go and break every rule there is in the book? or does it mean do she can break a few rules and let other rules stand? Or does it just mean that she can do whatever she wants without having to explain herself, which is quite ironic because she is trying to justify her actions on her blog, even though she's telling people that she doesn't care about their opinions.

    Underneath it all, we all want people to know what we're doing and why we're doing it and get some approval so that we can bask in it (no matter how much we try to deny it).

    It's strange that we will see Crazy Horse Cabaret coming in a few months time and yet someone's (tasteful) nudity on the internet is a huge problem for society at large.

    Maybe if she had posted a warning that there would be nudity and pasted the link offsite, then it might not have been such a huge issue? Just a thought.

    Really, the problem with the whole nudity thing hasn't yet been defined.
    No one has really come forward and given a tangible reason for why her being nude on her blog is wrong besides the fact that it is 'wrong'.

    It is not explicitly clear why this is wrong besides the fact that some part of our brain has chosen to label it such.

    I'll bet you the only reason why the person in the street can give about this nudity issue is that it is shameful and/or disgusting but is unable to explain clearly why they find it shameful and/or disgusting.
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