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Thread: Colour Management - Help!

  1. #1
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    Default Colour Management - Help!

    I'm using PS CS 2. In Print Preview under Colour Management, I have the option to allow PS to control the colour management or the printer under Colour Handling.

    Which should i choose and why?

    My settings are like these:

    Document: AdobeRGB1998 (Konica Minolta Dynax 7D)
    Colour Handling: Let Photoshop Determine Colours
    Printer Profile: FX Docuprint C525A A-AP p.100
    Rendering Intent: Perceptual
    Black Point Compensation is checked.

    Dos this mean I have selected Photoshop to do the colour management?



    On my printer driver I have the following dilemma:

    There is an Image Adjustment Mode with the following modes:
    1) Recommended (Gives u option to select photo, niormal presentation, etc). I think this uses the printer's colour management system.

    2) ICM Adjustment (System) - what does this do? Use Window's colour management? I have Vividness, Colorimetric, etc as options

    3) CMS Adjustment (Application) - what does this do? I usually select this cos I think that this allows PS to control the colour management. I have no options available for this.

    4) Complementary Colour Conversion - whatever this mode is for?

    Finally is it better to allow PS to control colour management or let the printer do it?

    Thanks!

  2. #2

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    If you are using the original manufacturing ink and paper for the printer then using the printer colour management is quite accurate.

    however, if you have using diff paper or ink, you will need to calibrate the printer profile. You may need to disable the ICM and use a native profile that created for the printer and the paper.

  3. #3

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    One simple way to look at it is to do it this way

    Under CS print with preview

    document : which ever working space you are working under, Adobe98, sRGB etc...
    printer : set it to the the paper and printer combination profile.

    Then once you reach the printer window, select "no color correction"

    this is the concept, it may come up under another title/name, but keep to this for a simple way to do a color managed printing.

    cheers
    36frames Wedding Photography - http://www.36frames.com
    rueyloon - http://www.rueyloon.com

  4. #4
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    Thank Rueyloon,

    BTW, I am using a colour laser printer from Fuji Xerox which uses the sRGB colour space. Hence inks are not a problem as I have to use Xerox's toners. I am just using plain paper to test but I just received an email from Fuji Xerox that they do stock coated paper which is equivalent to photo paper for inkjets (I assume matt types).

    I am trying to make sure that only one colur management system is in place and that is using CS2's management. But I'm not quite sure if I got the printer driver side correct although I am pretty sure that on CS2 side, it is correct. Because I use PS CS2, the print with preview dialog box under the More Otions section is a little different now from all previous versions of PS.


    I only have the following options:

    Print:
    Document or Proof.
    I select Document. It is set to Konica Minolta Dynax 7D AdobeRGB1998. Is there any difference in this AdobeRGB's colour rendering and the one used by CS2?

    Options:
    Colour Handling: Let PS determine colours
    Printer Profile: FX Docuprint C525A A-AP 1.0
    Rendering Intent: Perceptual

    There is no paper option in the print preview. I think this set up means that CS2 manages the colours and converts to the correct colour space based on the printer's driver. So even though I use AdobeRGB 1998, am I correct to assume that CS2 will convert the picture's colour space to sRGB (which is what the printer uses)?

    I have the printer set up to CMS Adjustment (Application) which I think is the mode will switches off the printer's colour management system.

    Comment?

    Thank you!
    Ming Ern

  5. #5

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    Ok, one by one, there are no devices that prints in sRGB. Yes sRGB is a color space and it can be used by cameras, monitors, printers etc... BUT what you have for your printer is it's own output color space, and that's described by the printer's outputprofile. Since output depends on ink and paper, the profile is specific to paper and ink.

    ok, now for your printing part. A slighly more advance/correct way to edit image is to convert it to the output profile or edit it under proof view. This way, you get a soft proof of how the output will looks like and you can edit accordingly.

    The rest of the stuff, because I don't have the printer nor can see the dialog... it's hard for me to advice :|

    but... it does seems to be letting PS handle the printing....

    question, after you hit print under "CS/print with preview", doesn't another print dialog pops up ?

    cheers: )
    36frames Wedding Photography - http://www.36frames.com
    rueyloon - http://www.rueyloon.com

  6. #6

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    sRGB normally for monitor TV becoz it uses the Red, Green and Blue to color mixing. normally printing will be CMYK (A color model used in the printing industry to reproduce color in the printing industry).

    So when you are printing, it will convert the source (assume as sRGB) to CMYK for printing.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rueyloon
    Ok, one by one, there are no devices that prints in sRGB. Yes sRGB is a color space and it can be used by cameras, monitors, printers etc... BUT what you have for your printer is it's own output color space, and that's described by the printer's outputprofile. Since output depends on ink and paper, the profile is specific to paper and ink.

    ok, now for your printing part. A slighly more advance/correct way to edit image is to convert it to the output profile or edit it under proof view. This way, you get a soft proof of how the output will looks like and you can edit accordingly.

    The rest of the stuff, because I don't have the printer nor can see the dialog... it's hard for me to advice :|

    but... it does seems to be letting PS handle the printing....

    question, after you hit print under "CS/print with preview", doesn't another print dialog pops up ?

    cheers: )
    I have a profile for the printer and that is probably a generic one... I do not know what that profile is optimised for in terms of the type of paper and ink...

    Hmm.. regarding the photo editing... usually I work in AdobeRGB, then I send it to print directly without converting to output profile to check... there is very slight variation in hue, tone and saturation.

    What should I do? Convert the profile of the picture to the printer's profile (i.e. the output profile)? And then edit from there? I suppose this is an irreversible process once the picture is saved since some data must be lost on converting? Does the undo function or deleting an action under the History palette allow full recovery of the data discarded?

    Usually I will check "Proof Colours" and "Gamut Warning" before I send for printing and then there will be some parts flashing in grey to warn that the printer is unable to reproduce those tones.

    This is all very confusing.... is there a simple flow chart that shows the steps that must be taken without all the extraneous explanations.... I think there ought to to be a FAQ which shows a simple flow chart like: Open File -> Convert to Output Profile -> Edit -> Soft Proof -> Print with Preview -> Print... And then each step is explained in turn in terms of what u click in PS and why u have to do it and what happens if u don't...

    If u see anything like that please send me a link.... I haven't be able to find anything like that although the copy at drycreek photo has been quite helpful but as u can see there're still lots of misconceptions and queries....

    Thanks a lot for patiently answering my questions!

  8. #8
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    Screen shot of my printer driver:


  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    I have a profile for the printer and that is probably a generic one... I do not know what that profile is optimised for in terms of the type of paper and ink...

    Hmm.. regarding the photo editing... usually I work in AdobeRGB, then I send it to print directly without converting to output profile to check... there is very slight variation in hue, tone and saturation.

    What should I do? Convert the profile of the picture to the printer's profile (i.e. the output profile)? And then edit from there? I suppose this is an irreversible process once the picture is saved since some data must be lost on converting? Does the undo function or deleting an action under the History palette allow full recovery of the data discarded?

    Usually I will check "Proof Colours" and "Gamut Warning" before I send for printing and then there will be some parts flashing in grey to warn that the printer is unable to reproduce those tones.

    This is all very confusing.... is there a simple flow chart that shows the steps that must be taken without all the extraneous explanations.... I think there ought to to be a FAQ which shows a simple flow chart like: Open File -> Convert to Output Profile -> Edit -> Soft Proof -> Print with Preview -> Print... And then each step is explained in turn in terms of what u click in PS and why u have to do it and what happens if u don't...

    If u see anything like that please send me a link.... I haven't be able to find anything like that although the copy at drycreek photo has been quite helpful but as u can see there're still lots of misconceptions and queries....

    Thanks a lot for patiently answering my questions!
    hi there,

    you might find the attached link useful - http://www.earthboundlight.com/photo...ain-part1.html

    this references an epson printer but may still be useful.

    welcome to the colour confused club. i had problems with this myself, but have sorted this out satisfactorily. here is my workflow, if it helps. my setup: nikon d100, photoshop cs, epson 2100 photo stylus printer.

    a. monitor profiled using spyder pro
    b. photoshop colour settings: working space - adobe rgb, colour management policy - convert to working rgb.
    c. edit image.
    d. when ready to print, "print with preview"
    e. source space - document, print space - profile for the printer/paper combination
    f. click "print", windows print dialog pops up.
    g. click "properties", the epson printer properties dialog box pops up.
    h. among the various options here, the key one is to to select "no printer adjustment"
    g. print.

    it helps to do a soft proof first thru "view", "proof setup". you may need to add the paper profile here first thru the "custom" option.

    the key is to let adobe manage all the colour conversions thru the entire workflow, instead of either windows or the printer. if you follow the settings as i have described above, photoshop cs will convert the document to one specified by the paper profile. of course, it is important to ensure that the paper profile used is accurate.

    to answer an earlier question of yours, i store my images as psd files with all editing completed except for those specifically required for output. the output specific editing will vary based on whether you are outputting to web or print media. i save these output versions separately as i typically also change the resolution, image size etc.

    you will need to the printer documentation to confirm, but it seems from your post that CMS Adjustment (Application) will leave the colour management to photoshop.

    i hope this helps. there are several links out there explaining the colour management principles particularly for printing, happy to post the other ones if you still need.

    hope this works for you.
    cheers,
    satish
    My Website

  10. #10
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    Hi Satish, thank you! Very useful... I've been doing that I think exactly what u have done except for the proofing part. Also as I am using a laser printer, I use plain paper and so can't proof accurately...

    What I notice is that I work in AdobeRGB, then I softproof. There are parts where the gamut warning comes on.... do u get that? I thought rueyloon's method might work better since u convert the photo to the printer's profile's colour space and then work from there.... in effect u are working on the soft proof copy so when u send to print, there are no surprises. I dun get gamut warnings when working with the printer's colour profile.
    Last edited by TME; 19th June 2005 at 12:03 PM.

  11. #11
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    BTW, how do u add paper profile under Proof Setup? I have only 2 options:

    1) Device to Simulate (I select my printer)

    2) Rendering intent (I choose Perceptual)

    Display options is greyed out.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    Hi Satish, thank you! Very useful... I've been doing that I think exactly what u have done except for the proofing part. Also as I am using a laser printer, I use plain paper and so can't proof accurately...

    What I notice is that I work in AdobeRGB, then I softproof. There are parts where the gamut warning comes on.... do u get that? I thought rueyloon's method might work better since u convert the photo to the printer's profile's colour space and then work from there.... in effect u are working on the soft proof copy so when u send to print, there are no surprises. I dun get gamut warnings when working with the printer's colour profile.
    i dont see any gamut warnings when i do a "proof colors" (ctrl-y) - i am not sure what you are referring to.

    by converting the document to the printer profile color space you are actually doing the same thing as i outlined before i.e. setting the source and print spaces in the "print with preview" dialog box. the disadvantage with this is that you are permanently converting the color space of the document to a gamut that is smaller in range than adobe rgb. doesnt help when you want to print to a different medium e.g. glossy vs. matte paper. it is best to keep your source document in adobe rgb and let cs handle the color conversions at print time without altering the document itself.

    as to how to set up a proofing profile, here is what you do in cs, not sure if this is the same in cs2 - "view", "proof setup", "custom", then "setup" - custom, "profile" - printer/paper profile, "intent" - perceptual, and finally "save" with whatever name you want to call it.

    ciao,
    satish
    My Website

  13. #13

    Default printer/paper profiles

    read thru your posts again - if you are not seeing any paper profiles in "print with preview" (in the "print space" dropdown list, that is probably because you have not added the paper profiles into the windows directory where the profiles are stored.

    for windows xp, this is windows\system32\spool\drivers\color.
    satish
    My Website

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    Hi Satish, thank you! Very useful... I've been doing that I think exactly what u have done except for the proofing part. Also as I am using a laser printer, I use plain paper and so can't proof accurately...

    What I notice is that I work in AdobeRGB, then I softproof. There are parts where the gamut warning comes on.... do u get that? I thought rueyloon's method might work better since u convert the photo to the printer's profile's colour space and then work from there.... in effect u are working on the soft proof copy so when u send to print, there are no surprises. I dun get gamut warnings when working with the printer's colour profile.
    i see what you mean by gamut warning - i found the option. as you may have guessed, i dont use this option. i just do a "proof colors" and if the picture looks ok, print.
    satish
    My Website

  15. #15
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    Yes, I switch on gamut warning...

    Thanks for the tip about paper profiles... where can I get them? I actually am just using plain paper now for testing to get my workflow correct and since it's a laser, I have to source for special coated paper that won't ruin my drum...

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    Yes, I switch on gamut warning...

    Thanks for the tip about paper profiles... where can I get them? I actually am just using plain paper now for testing to get my workflow correct and since it's a laser, I have to source for special coated paper that won't ruin my drum...
    you said you are using a fuji printer - i would think the best place to check would be their website.

    or you could google for fuji paper profiles.

    i found my profiles on the epson website.

    note that profiles are really for the printer/paper combination and not for the printer itself.

    good luck!
    satish
    My Website

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