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Thread: Black White Gray. View needed.

  1. #1

    Default Black White Gray. View needed.

    I ran into a suitation during my most recent buys on the buy sell forum. Which raised my alarm during the cost of the deal.

    While in ebay/yahoo auction type service a bid can be treated as a form of contract between the seller and bidder for the price and goods mentioned. However, in forums as such like clubsnap, there is a market type buy sell section in which similar in certain nature to yahoo/ebay type auctions, where we used the word, bid/RP/reserved for viewing/etc etc.. as a form of contract which binds the seller to the buyer.

    The question here is, must the buyer buy the item once bidded even thou he still have choices to select from? For example, he might have earlier bid for a item @ $X, which later during a course of the day, someone offered ex. $10 less than $X for the same item. By right should the first bid be accepted and agreed upon to deal, its fair that the buyer should follow through the first one even thou the 2nd one might be cheaper.

    However, due to the nature of camera items ($$$), we introduced a practices to protect the buyers, in which we can bid and should it be accepted the buyer can be granted for inspection/viewing to ensure that the item he bid is in good condition of which he can accept. So how, its either my bad or another thinks that by accepting to a viewing session, it equals to the closing of the deal in which buyer is morally obligated to buy the mentioned item. Which should the deal fall-out, buyer is considered as a rouge bidder and should be blackmarked. Where the other side of thinks that he is not obligated to close the deal should he be not satified with the equipment/ or have valid reason to call off the deal.

    So here lies a gray zone, buyer/sellers rights are again not spelled out. Who is right.. who is wrong.. or is there a gray zone that lies inbetween. As clubsnap is getting more and more popular, no doubt more and more such issue will be faced. So after a sour experience, i sharing my views in hope to gather what is considered by the current generation of forumer as the black or white, reducing gray zones as much as possible.


    The quote below is by me to explain in another thread in the Buy sell forum.

    Further references here.
    http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?p=1331653

    To start,

    Let me offer my outmost apologies to jazzlee for the time wasted and a deal that did not go through. His deal was fantastic, body is in near prime condition as good as buying 1st hand.

    However, due to my prior arangement with another seller, i have to reject jazzlee offer. This decision was however, made based on factors that is not biased to either seller jazzlee or the 1st seller (to be refer as Mr L for the rest of the post) i contacted with.

    Here the story, should jazzlee want to know.

    1. Had made arrangement with Mr L to view his equipment last thursday. Due to work requirement, was unable to follow through with the deal. However, an agreed price of $2200 was made for 3 battery, 1x 1GB CF card and the body. Had agreed to consider his this week if he had not close his offer.

    2. Contacted Mr L. This morning that i will be able to meet him this evening to follow up on the offer. Mr L can only commit @ 7.15pm.

    3. Saw jazzlee sales offer this morning as well, decided to offer @ his RP for his 20D combo. Jazzlee agreed for a viewing/inspect session @ 7pm.

    4. At around 7.10pm (was late) i meet jazzlee at cityhall starbucks to inspect the condition of his offered items. I was very please at the condition and told him i would have no issue to buy at his offered price, BUT i must wait for Mr L who happened to be caught in a jam and came around 7.40pm+, which jazzlee had no objection with as i told him my reasons for waiting for Mr L.

    5. I went to withdraw the required amount as both jazzlee and Mr L do not have a UOB account but POSB/DBS ones. I withdrew a total of $2400 in $1000, $1000, $400 in all $50 notes(i have the withdraw slip to prove). I was prepare to go for jazzlee offer should Mr L equipment fall short of expectation. As Jazzlee offer dont have a CF card, i had withdrew an addition $100 + my personal change of $70+ so i can after the deal, go to funan to top up a new 1GB CF.

    6. When i came back from the ATM machine, Mr L is already there, and had meet Jazzlee. I went through checking of Mr L machine, from external to CMOS. Generally the condition is fantastic, just 0.0001% better than jazzlee machine, as i believe Mr L had not used his hotshoe at all as there is totally no sight of wear and tear. I made a fair comment that Mr L condition is as good as jazzlee ones. The 2 gentleman made their bid to ask me to make a choice which i did based on the below reasons, in which i took Mr L offers. Do note that i had not promise either party that i;m obligated to buy their equipment.

    Reason.
    R1.> I had contacted Mr L days before.
    R2.> Jazzlee offer is Good, and his claimed to have 3-4k+ shutter count. Mr L have ard not more than 1.2-1.5k count which to me makes no differences.
    R3.> I asked their source of their camera purchases, Jazz from TCW and Mr L from AP.
    R4.> Gross value of either offer is around $2300. In which Jazz strenght is the grip and Mr L is the CF card.
    R5.> Based on reason 2-4, both offers are equally good in terms of value and price. So to caculate, i factor in the cost i would incure for taking on either offers (after all its suppose to be a good buy, if not it would have been a first hand). Mr L offers still stand out as i do not need to spend extra to aquire an extra CF card that can will save me $1xx.
    R6.> As i am unable to find any critical fault with Mr L machine who i had already agreed to view first, should he is able to make it on an earlier timing, I wouldnt have made an offer to jazzlee. Thus based on the above 5 reason, i took Mr L offers, which i believe is totally fair towards both party.

    However, Jazzlee is unhappy that i declined his sales and say he will blacklist me for dealing reasons he deem is unfair to him. Not knowning the reason behind my call, i feel is unfair to him, thus i made this effort to type it out. I here by again, offer my apologies for his time wasted and is regretful that i was unable to close the deal with him.

    Last edited by misato; 7th June 2005 at 09:42 PM. Reason: corrected some typo

  2. #2
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    Its really between the buyer and seller, there's no way any rules can/will help.

    Sellers can keep a list of potential bidder, or extend the selling a few more days when buyers back out - for what ever reason. Similarly, a seller can backed out even if the RP is met. either party can only grumble about it, how to blacklist?

    For the above example, not sure if the buyer informed J****** about his bidding with Mr L. This is the only possible mistake of the buyer.

    I think it will be polite for the buyer to inform the sellers that he is "2-timing" 2 sellers and would like to meet both before deciding. (oops )
    Last edited by pcwe68; 7th June 2005 at 10:04 PM.

  3. #3

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    Excellent example by Jazzlee to illustrate my question.

    Apologies accepted. But I still need to ask from you, misato, is to remember the following advice. Please, this is to all the purchasers in clubsnap too.

    If you are committed to another person's sale thread. Complete it before you engage another as it really wastes people's time. Sometimes if one is scared that the offer might be taken and decides to accept all the deals(indecisive? greed?). This to me, is highly unfair to a genuine seller like me.
    I am angry not because the deal was off but mostly because I was not informed about the situation before I drop by to deal. If you had bothered to informed me about your commitment. I would not have come today as it is also unfair to the earlier seller, in this case Mr L. In short, you have already broke the trust of both sellers by not informing of your decision that you need to view and check both parties before commiting to buy.

    Put yourself in my shoes. How would you feel??

    Anyway. I shall let the matter rest but as I had spoken, the trust is broken and I would never deal with such a person like you again. No matter what apologies or compensation.
    So the question here is, in the interests of the buyer who wants X item. He/she therefore browse through the listing and bids for any X items that is put up for sales. With hope to have a big catch. So by casting the net wide it is disadvantage to the seller, but to the buyer.. competition is always good. After all, it effects the bottomline of the mentioned. The buyers wins is the seller lost and same goes.

    So the view is who ever lie on the losing end of the bottomline claims victim.
    Any view on this perspective?

  4. #4

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    I see your point.. Do refer to my next reply on this 2-timer issue. Your views would be enlightening.

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    sorry, about using 2-timing, I just tot it seems to describe the situation.

    I think that if both sellers were informed of the buyer's intention (I am fine with it, about competition and getting a better buy). Then there will not be any misunderstanding.

    Its up to the seller to accept any conditions by buyer (and vice versa), however both parties should be outright about any terms and requirements.

    Not quite good to make 2 or more buyers to meet together (to have a final fight it out) or similarly to make 2 or more sellers to come meet the buyer to show their stuff.
    Last edited by pcwe68; 7th June 2005 at 10:23 PM.

  6. #6

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    Not really by choice.. cause 1 is late. ERP.. dont seem to be working at all to keep the jam away.

    Back to more questions to spice up the thoughts.

    Is it in the best interests for the buyer to openly spell out the offers he/she have gathered?

    After all, looking at the real business world, only bidder name are made opened but not the amount bidded. Thus in true sense and meaning to the word bidding.

    However, looking at examples given, its not always in true to the real meaning of the act. With the actual buy sell thread thats active, some bids are "market spoliter" to potential buyers.. but to sellers.. they are laughing all the way to the bank as price got jacked up out of reach. Buyer Victim?

    One can call this explotation to an open system based on fairness and where bid are made only after research been carried out aka intelligent investment move.

    Turn the table around and you can sell potential sellers crashing market with unbelievable price. ie recently surfacing in the hardwarezone forum, few indiviual are offering their renewal freebie the ipad rx3417 @ $300 and lower. For the geniune sellers who wishes to use this to offset the cost and for retailers who had stocks of this product or equvialent model, what is the say for them? Seller Victim?
    Last edited by misato; 7th June 2005 at 10:30 PM. Reason: i hate editing my own typo :X

  7. #7
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    IMO, once a reservation has been made, both seller and buyer should honour the agreement..
    ie. The buyer should not reserve another set from another buyer, nor should the seller suddenly change his mind and allow another person to view it and take it..

    In this instance, I'd say that the buyer should not have bidded the reserve price and arrange to meet on the same day..

    What should have been done was that the buyer should notify the 2nd seller that he's got a sale pending.. This will allow the seller to keep a queue of the next best bidder(s)..

    If the buyer chooses to take the 1st set, he can then notify the 2nd seller immediately and the latter can arrange to sell it to the next bidder.

    Alternatively, if the next bidder in line should choose to up the ante and is willing and able to meet up before hand to transact, then the 2nd seller would sell it to him/ her while notifying the first bidder.. It's only fair to be allowed to do so..

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by misato
    After all, looking at the real business world, only bidder name are made opened but not the amount bidded. Thus in true sense and meaning to the word bidding.
    That's a tender system.. In the forums, it's an auction system. The bidder need not be identified but the sum should be.
    Of course, bids such as "I'll up anyone else's bid" would be unethical and should not be considered.
    With PM's, the system becomes more complicated.. It's on the seller's onus to state explicitly whether bids should be by PM/ sms or by posts on the thread itself..
    It should never be both..
    If it is, then the seller has to make known in the first instance which would take priority..
    I'd tend towards giving priority to bids in the actual thread that have reached the RP.

  9. #9
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    What I see is that the thread starter has the intention to buy a 20D. Subsequent intentions don't seem to be as clear. That the pre-arrangement with Mr. L to see the first 20D is clear enough, but for jazzlee's set, did misato or jazzlee select the viewing time? For if misato did, there is fair enough doubt that he at least tried to kill two birds with one stone by getting the viewings over and done with on the same day/time at the same place. As events transpired, the two prospective sellers even met up. To me, that sets up a competitive reverse auction environment that benefits the single buyer. (If I were one of the sellers and I realize this was happening I would already have backed out of the deal at this point.)

    There is nothing fundamentally wrong about selecting the best available deal, nor is it against any common law that you can't choose a time or place that places two prospective sellers' wares for your choosing, but I have to say that trading in Clubsnap is of a personal and private nature, ie, non-profit, and this goes against the grain of that spirit.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by r32
    What I see is that the thread starter has the intention to buy a 20D. Subsequent intentions don't seem to be as clear. That the pre-arrangement with Mr. L to see the first 20D is clear enough, but for jazzlee's set, did misato or jazzlee select the viewing time? For if misato did, there is fair enough doubt that he at least tried to kill two birds with one stone by getting the viewings over and done with on the same day/time at the same place. As events transpired, the two prospective sellers even met up. To me, that sets up a competitive reverse auction environment that benefits the single buyer. (If I were one of the sellers and I realize this was happening I would already have backed out of the deal at this point.)

    There is nothing fundamentally wrong about selecting the best available deal, nor is it against any common law that you can't choose a time or place that places two prospective sellers' wares for your choosing, but I have to say that trading in Clubsnap is of a personal and private nature, ie, non-profit, and this goes against the grain of that spirit.
    Indeed such case is possible where buyer purposely setup to deal both seller at the same time to create competition between the 2 or more seller. However, the keyword to the action is called bargaining.

    If the buyer openly ask for a better price infront of the 2 or more seller then i would say it will fall into this suitation as mention.

    Lame the statement maybe, but i dont believe in true non-profiting sales. Profits can be measured not only in $ gain but $ loss as well. When i sell say a 2nd hand car for a good price, i had made losses over my original purchase price, but i had also limit my loss as well for the part that was used. The item could have generated benifits / earnings for the owner before it was put up for sales. These isnt always as obvious to the seller.

    A simple example, owner used camera to cover 4 event. each he charge $300. So returns of his investment for the camera is $1200. He bought his camera at $2800. He sold it off at $2000. His effective lost? His effective gains? <-- input of views require here.

    Therefore the use of the word profit itself is another gray word when applied to sales in personal capacity.

  11. #11
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    I just feel that all sell/buy should be a win/win situation and not a win/lose situation, although in some thread the seller will use the term "my loss and your gain".

    At the end of the day, when the transaction goes through both sides win. The seller has set a RP which he felt good to reduce his "loss" and the buyer bought it at a "bargain" which he felt good too.

    So it should be a win/win situation, you seems to view it to as a win/lose situation, and of course everyone wants to be the winner.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcwe68
    I just feel that all sell/buy should be a win/win situation and not a win/lose situation, although in some thread the seller will use the term "my loss and your gain".

    At the end of the day, when the transaction goes through both sides win. The seller has set a RP which he felt good to reduce his "loss" and the buyer bought it at a "bargain" which he felt good too.

    So it should be a win/win situation, you seems to view it to as a win/lose situation, and of course everyone wants to be the winner.
    This i believe is the goal on sales make through forums such as clubsnap buy/sell.

    While there is other alternative to sell off 2nd hand products, such as TCW. The price offer by commerial entity might not always be the best. So the more season of the readers will try their luck here for a better selling price. Buyers tends to prefer buying from forums as the price is usually more competitive vs 2nd hand shops.

    However, personal sales vs shop sales differs in the ways in that shops can offer more creditability and some form of shop warrenty. This however is OT for the cause of this discussion.

    How much to charge and what is a good price is entirely up to the seller/buyer. This i believe is respected by all users. Win/Win, Win/lose is up to the eye of the beholder.

    For online sales via forums, its more of the process than the result that makes it so unique vs traditional means. So the goal is re-look at what we took for granted as the rights of the buyer and the seller. Its not really to draw a paint a right or wrong picture, but more to let known the misconception / confusion users might face on their rights.

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