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Thread: Portrait photographers:: Who's a model and who is not?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    my point exactly
    If someone want to say he is a pro (as in photographer) or a model.
    He/she got to live up to his/her name lohz.

    Nobody can stop them mah.

    If not, ppl will laugh till their teeth dropped or till they are 6ft under.

  2. #22
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    who i shoot?

    1. people who pay me
    2. people i like

    re: 2. being those i love, or i feel add value to my book.

    specialising in fashion, currently my flavour of the month is a very good face (no fat), good height (limbs proportions), good figure.

    she may not need to be able to pose very well but MUST be VERY keen to do what i want her to do.

    been noticing the trend in CS lately. what i find disturbing is people posting thread asking for TFP/CD and actually stating terms and conditions....

    need to fit schedule, need to see portfolio... etcs. i feel the person as raw as that with not much experience is in not position to demand it. it is worse when you have a bunch of amazingly keen boys.... calmouring for it.

    when ever doing TFP/ CD it is important to maintain your dignity and the professionalism expected from it. dun be jumping for it coz she is pretty or what so ever.

    my personal opinion.
    Last edited by zekai; 29th May 2005 at 04:08 AM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by student
    I have been mystified by what is portrait photography. Obviously there are many different sub-genres of portrait photography.

    Of course central to portrait photography is a person/persons.

    A successful portrait is a dance between the "model" and the "photographer", with the camera as a medium to record that dance. And eventually the dance presented to the viewer.

    So I chose my model based on his/her ability to "dance". What is he/she capable of? What can he/she "give" me as a dance partner? Is he/she superficial, going through the motion, or is he/she the dance that I can reciprocate so that we can both give a good interpretation to the viewer? Our story of the dance.
    Very philosophical, and very parable-like.

    As always, a great contribution of light in the darkness, Dr C.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Anyone who could stand if front of a camera has the potential to be a model maybe with a business law study thrown to complement "the Look"?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly
    If someone want to say he is a pro (as in photographer) or a model.
    He/she got to live up to his/her name lohz.

    Nobody can stop them mah.

    If not, ppl will laugh till their teeth dropped or till they are 6ft under.
    This must be one of the most philosophical, enlightening and definitive analysis without trying to be too philosphical, enlightening and definitive about it.

  6. #26
    Senior Member dominator's Avatar
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    Agreed with certain comments up here. Was at a dinner that day and heard a discussion about cs here.
    "this forum cs, you registered for free, then can ask people to take photos for you free too!"
    well, i think that is as news spread all these young girls will start flowing in here asking for free shots yet being able to ask the photographers to fit their terms and conditions.
    no offence...imo only. alot of people here may like it too.
    Cleanse your thoughts, not by the foods you eat.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominator
    Agreed with certain comments up here. Was at a dinner that day and heard a discussion about cs here.
    "this forum cs, you registered for free, then can ask people to take photos for you free too!"
    well, i think that is as news spread all these young girls will start flowing in here asking for free shots yet being able to ask the photographers to fit their terms and conditions.
    no offence...imo only. alot of people here may like it too.
    Hahah! I hope this is not what CS is known for. We might have to change CS to FreeSnap.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverfrond
    with all the new "model" TFP/CD shoots around recently, how are you going to choose your models?
    will you(as a portrait photographer) monitor the "quality" of the model(s) in your photograph?
    or will you just shoot because it is a "free" shoot, a free chance to get more faces in your portfolio?

    what do they do before they are considered "models" to you?
    the first job?
    graduation from modelling class?
    being asked to join a model agency?
    TFP?

    self- proclaimation?


    WHAT makes a model now? WHO will be considered a model to you as a portrait photographer?

    open to discussion - comments please
    An analogy might be helpful here. The photographer is the painter, the camera is the brush and canvas, and the model is the paint. All 3 are equally important, without one, nothing can be created.

    I am going to stick my neck out and prepare to be flamed here but I don’t care. What I am seeing is a very disturbing development.

    With the proliferation of newbie and wannabe models offering free/TCP shoots, and the general infatuation by many photographers here on CS to shoot anything that is free, many shoot organizers driven away. After all, there is a limited number of photographers, whom all have limited amount of time available for shoots. If the organizers can no longer attract a steady interest and participation, the writing is on the wall.

    I shoot strictly for myself. To answer Silverfond’s question, do I need many faces in my portfolio? The answer is an emphatic NO. What I am looking for is a portfolio that contains images that represent what I am trying to present, the story I am trying to tell, and most important of all, images that I like, that I enjoy and that I am proud of. What each of the like, enjoy and pride means is really irrelevant. To achieve these 3 things, I have to be in control of the shoot, work closely with the model, and together we create the images I want to create.

    With the proliferation of newbie model TCP shoot, I as a photographer is no longer in control, I am not working closely with the model, and how am I going to create the images I set out to create??? On top of everything, newbie models lack the experience and training to contribute, to do their part in the creation of the images I seek.

    I will continue to work with a few organizers, whom I have been working with for a while and will continue to shoot what I want to shoot. However, as the number of current and new organizers dwindle, if will be harder and harder for an amateur photographer like myself to find new ideas/models to shoot. I am not in the market to discover new models, that is the job of the organizers. They search and discover new models, and I try to support them and make it worth their (organizers and models) while.

    It’s a long answer to a simple question Silverfond posed. I will choose the best model, in my opinion and best suited for whatever “project” I am working on, and will pay them a fair compensation for their efforts. I doubt under the current TFP craze will I ever be able to find the right model/creative partner to work with.

    If I have offended the TCP crowd, so be it, this is my opinion. I said it and will live by my words. To each their own, I will continue to do it my way to create the images I want.
    deadpoet
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  9. #29
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    My take on this is: Anyone who would pose for you for a token or a fee is considered a Model. Doesn't matter whether he or she is good-looking or not. Frankly some of the models in the CS model shoots are very average looking (to me) but CSers are still more than willing to fork out $80 -100 to shoot them.

    So I guess the only thing that differentiates these so-called Models from the rest must be their level of professionalism and their ability to meet the needs of the photographer.

    $0.02

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sion
    Anyone who could stand if front of a camera has the potential to be a model maybe with a business law study thrown to complement "the Look"?

    Business law? I also studied what - during my purse of my accountancy degree. Its just a brief touch on it, but very useful when you used it for negotiation during course of work.

    From the look of one of the gal who has some hormones of guys here raging - some ppl thought law seow... must be lawyer.. chey..

    I won't do personal attacks on her character - like reason is in the eye of the beholder.. hehe.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadpoet
    What I am looking for is a portfolio that contains images that represent what I am trying to present, the story I am trying to tell, and most important of all, images that I like, that I enjoy and that I am proud of.

    It’s a long answer to a simple question Silverfond posed. I will choose the best model, in my opinion and best suited for whatever “project” I am working on, and will pay them a fair compensation for their efforts. I doubt under the current TFP craze will I ever be able to find the right model/creative partner to work with.
    I cartainly agree with that!

    "Good models" are difficult to get. "Good" does not mean beautiful or glamourous. "Good" means to me to be able to "dance" with me (using my earlier analogy) to produce a story about that person.

    These "good" models can be professional or amateur. But it is usually harder to find a "good" amateur to work with. Some of my favorite portrait images are amateurs. But on the whole, "professionals" are usually easier to work with. And I will pay suitable "compensation" for the work that these models do.

    After all, it is usually more pleasurable to dance with a professional.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by student
    I have been mystified by what is portrait photography. Obviously there are many different sub-genres of portrait photography.

    Of course central to portrait photography is a person/persons.

    A successful portrait is a dance between the "model" and the "photographer", with the camera as a medium to record that dance. And eventually the dance presented to the viewer.

    So I chose my model based on his/her ability to "dance". What is he/she capable of? What can he/she "give" me as a dance partner? Is he/she superficial, going through the motion, or is he/she the dance that I can reciprocate so that we can both give a good interpretation to the viewer? Our story of the dance.
    Reminds me of Sarah Silver...

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow_One
    Reminds me of Sarah Silver...

    I have heard of Sarah Silver, but not acquainted with her work. There are just so many good photographers around. Anyway just checked into her website to get acquainted with her work.

    What I mentioned was not original in any way. It was a rough summation of a personal difficulty with the issue of portrait photography, and a long standing conversations with a well known portrait photographer whom I am fortunate to have as a friend. We discussed this over a period of two years, discussing things that go on in a photoshoot. I am still trying to clarify my thoughts further, but a big burden had already been put down.

    My thinking is that, at the highest level of portrait making, irrespective of the genres of portrait photogrpahy, these photographers are all talking about the same thing, but in different ways. Some more coherently than others. But I think, as in all forms of art, it is essentially a story, a biography of the subject being considered and put to print or form.

  14. #34

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    but then one of the thread only gather more hits n interest when the gal start to post links of herself..

    Who likes to shoot "normal" model??
    Can see all the chee hongs jump rite in, with some throwing freebies at own costs.
    Good to see more of the senior n pro not jumping into the wagon.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly
    but then one of the thread only gather more hits n interest when the gal start to post links of herself..

    Who likes to shoot "normal" model??
    Can see all the chee hongs jump rite in, with some throwing freebies at own costs.
    Good to see more of the senior n pro not jumping into the wagon.

    Whose problem was that? The model or the photographers? Do professional photographers need to build up their portfolios this way?

  16. #36

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly
    but then one of the thread only gather more hits n interest when the gal start to post links of herself..

    Who likes to shoot "normal" model??
    Can see all the chee hongs jump rite in, with some throwing freebies at own costs.
    Good to see more of the senior n pro not jumping into the wagon.
    such responses are generally expected of testotrene(spelling?) loaded males. i am not saying that those more senior or pro have less of it.

  17. #37
    Senior Member dominator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwilly
    but then one of the thread only gather more hits n interest when the gal start to post links of herself..

    Who likes to shoot "normal" model??
    Can see all the chee hongs jump rite in, with some throwing freebies at own costs.
    Good to see more of the senior n pro not jumping into the wagon.
    ya man that's what i was thinking too, you point it out!
    I can bet if a man or some very normal looking lady post and request photoshots....no one will do it or to the minimum of someone willing to do it.
    Cleanse your thoughts, not by the foods you eat.

  18. #38
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    We've been hearing a lot from the photographers. Please allow a person from the other side of the fence to share her insight/experience.

    Before I have even heard of this concept called TFP, I posted a thread in one of the photography forums requesting for a photographer for the obvious reason of compiling my portfolio. At that point of time, the thread was posted with a view of engaging the services of a photographer for my portfolio purposes and to that end, I invited the photographers who were interested to quote me their rate.

    Before long, admist the overwhelming response, I was introduced to this concept of TFP/TFCD. I agreed to work with every photographer who showed interest as I did not want to discriminate (having no experience and all on my part). Some people say I am just wasting my time, but to me every photoshoot is a learning experience. I stand to gain from every photoshoot, and I will definitely try to make the best out of every photoshoot.

    Being very careful not to induce false expectations, I took great care to inform each and every of the photographers that I have no experience as a model as yet, and the photoshoot might not turn out the way they have expected it to be. Nevertheless, the photographers were very understanding, and most of them were very ready to provide guidance/instructions pertaining to the relevant photoshoots.

    I tried my very best to set up pre-production meetings with the photographers before the intended photoshoots. Some people again feel that these are a waste of time, but to me (and to most of the photographers) they are vital in building rapport, bridging communication and relaying intentions between the photographer(s) and the model. At the end of the day, the shots taken will tell the final story, whether the model had in fact played the convincing role in the make belief theme the photographer was trying to create, whether the model was absolutely comfortable and relaxed enough, and whether the entire shoot produces the kind of effect that is what they call, the extra mile compared to normal snapshooting.

    From my experience, I, being the model, absorb the costs on my part and share the costs of studio rental with the photographer(s). Being a perfectionist myself, I even went to great lengths to purchase suitable clothes for photoshoots as I am very particular about details. To me, in every theme every little detail and particular that blends in create a synergy effect; but one little oversight may just cost you the mood you intend to create.

    I have always been very open to participate in any type of theme each photographer have in mind, so long as I am not asked to do something that I may be uncomfortable with. That spoken, I sometimes feel at a disadvantage because I myself have very clear ideas of how to create a certain feel, the kind of details to pay attention to (wardrobe, makeup, hair, accessories, movements, look, etc) but I may have to defer to the photographer's wishes whose ideas may or may not be in tangent with mine. Do I have the say since it will be my portfolio at the end of the day, or do I just tally along since the photographer is doing me a great service by taking my pictures for free?

    Does the more 'experienced' photographer or model call the shots at the end of the day?

    It would be folly to solve a breakdown in communication by resorting to fathoming the level of experience. Mutual respect is what makes the day... even if the model has no experience, he or she may have ideas the more experienced photographer could have overlooked, be misinformed of or ignorant about, and vice versa.
    Last edited by esstelle; 31st May 2005 at 08:28 PM.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by esstelle
    We've been hearing a lot from the photographers. Please allow a person from the other side of the fence to share her insight/experience.

    Does the more 'experienced' photographer or model call the shots at the end of the day?
    Please allow me to sincerely convey my utmost respect for you. You have an attitude that is most worthy of emulating.

    It is obvious that the word "model" used in the context and also alluded to in your post refers to "fashion" and similar modelling.

    Whatever the goal/s of the photo-making session, there must be a partnership between model and photographer. In your case, each one is "making use" of the other for his/her own objectives. You to get a portfolio that you can use to present yourself to future clients, the photograher to practice and also get a portfolio for his potential clients. So discuss and work out something mutually beneficial.

    However if one party pays the other, then he calls the shots. If I pay you to model for me, it is my portfolio that is important, not yours. I may or may not be nice to make some images that you can use, but it is my perogative, not yours. But I will be nice, because a willing dancer will always perform better than one who is just doing a job.

  20. #40
    esstelle
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    Quote Originally Posted by student
    However if one party pays the other, then he calls the shots. If I pay you to model for me, it is my portfolio that is important, not yours. I may or may not be nice to make some images that you can use, but it is my perogative, not yours. But I will be nice, because a willing dancer will always perform better than one who is just doing a job.
    I absolutely agree with this... If the photographer pays the model to model for him/her, then vis-a-vis the implied contract the model is renderring his/her services to the photographer and would naturally be subjected to the photographer's terms.

    In a similar vein, if the model pays the photographer then the model is contracting for the services of the photographer and the natural inference is that the model call the shots.

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