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Thread: Clubsnap Culture

  1. #21
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    Maybe its because there's an empirical gauge for technicalities but none for artistic values?
    If you understand my works, it's photography. If you don't, it's art.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splutter
    Maybe its because there's an empirical gauge for technicalities but none for artistic values?
    to a great extent technicalities are linked to artistic intentions

  3. #23
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    Coming from an engineer background (I totally sux at art!), I usually try to comment on things I know better - technicalities! Furthermore, artistic values are pretty subjective. What I feel may improve an image may degrade one in another's eyes.
    If you understand my works, it's photography. If you don't, it's art.
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  4. #24

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    This has been argued and debated to death.

    Every photographer likes to be called an artist than a technician. Everybody likes to have "something to say". They all like to introduce a "new way of seeing".

    "No, I am not interested in techniques. I like to shoot from my heart. My feelings."

    In truth, how many are of this calibre? Perhaps this where we have a problem with definitions. How many have depth of perceptions?

    What is "in-depth"? For my definition, I disqualify myself. Others may have definitions that includes anybody. Therefore I am unable to offer "in-depth" critiques because I am unable to do so. Because of my shallowness, my images are not " from the heart". I would like to. But it is beyond me. Maybe my approach is wrong. Meanwhile, I hope to make some meaningful images and hopefully, in 10 years time, I can photograph with my heart and my third eye.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splutter
    Coming from an engineer background (I totally sux at art!), I usually try to comment on things I know better - technicalities! Furthermore, artistic values are pretty subjective. What I feel may improve an image may degrade one in another's eyes.
    that's why no need to take critiques too personally mah, post picture here, ideas get thrown in, pick up the useful ones lor. if anyone think the critiques here are sometimes too harsh, he/she can come my school and see what kind of critique sessions we have ... the moment my tutor opens his mouth he'll go 'bl***y h**l you should just put a bomb inside that building and bl** up that piece of j**k'

  6. #26

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    what everyone wants is daniel lezano, will cheung or mike maloney to comment on our pics.

    however, we can't always have what we want.

    so, we muddle along, doing the best we can, proferring opinions and half baked critiques. are they useless? no. does it mean your pic is crap if there are no critiques/comment? no. just means that ultimately you the photographer must learn to be your own harshest critic. does your photo measure up to what greg gorman or ansel adams can produce? surely you don't need someone to tell you "yes" or "no". your eyes are more than up to the task. having an experienced and respected critic like DL, WC and MM hastens the process of enlightenment, but that's not to say that the slow process of self invention, discovery and actualisation is any inferior. some of the most reputable photogs today were entirely self-taught, many of whom shoot entirely by instinct or feel.

    so....shoot more, absorb ideas, create new ones, make mistakes, laugh about them, experiment, think more, be more selective, develop a thick skin and a unique style, and express yourself. what better way to enjoy photography?
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaren
    what everyone wants is daniel lezano, will cheung or mike maloney to comment on our pics.

    however, we can't always have what we want.

    so, we muddle along, doing the best we can, proferring opinions and half baked critiques. are they useless? no. does it mean your pic is crap if there are no critiques/comment? no. just means that ultimately you the photographer must learn to be your own harshest critic. does your photo measure up to what greg gorman or ansel adams can produce? surely you don't need someone to tell you "yes" or "no". your eyes are more than up to the task. having an experienced and respected critic like DL, WC and MM hastens the process of enlightenment, but that's not to say that the slow process of self invention, discovery and actualisation is any inferior. some of the most reputable photogs today were entirely self-taught, many of whom shoot entirely by instinct or feel.

    so....shoot more, absorb ideas, create new ones, make mistakes, laugh about them, experiment, think more, be more selective, develop a thick skin and a unique style, and express yourself. what better way to enjoy photography?


  8. #28
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    It is difficult to give critique without hurting the poster ego.

    Since it is so difficult, most choose to avoid it, less it turn out to be a flame war.

    An incident still haunt me where I gave my sincere critique to a moderator. He turn ugly and challenged me to post one of my pic to show I am better..

    From that day onward, I only try to give critique to those i know or those that I think are putting an effort to learn.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    It is difficult to give critique without hurting the poster ego.

    Since it is so difficult, most choose to avoid it, less it turn out to be a flame war.

    An incident still haunt me where I gave my sincere critique to a moderator. He turn ugly and challenged me to post one of my pic to show I am better..

    From that day onward, I only try to give critique to those i know or those that I think are putting an effort to learn.
    Perhaps you may want to look at the way you present your comments, my friend? We are writing comments, not speaking. There is a difference in the written language and the spoken language. Appropriate words will have to be used. One can still deliver the message but yet can make it sound so subtle that the reader will not get offended in any way.

    In our spoken language, there are eyes to assist us in judging the mood and the reactions of the listener. The voice, the volume, the tone, the words used and a lot more factors which result in the overall delivery of the message. When we are talking to our friends, we are seeing our friends and they are able to look at us. Messages are received in both ears and eyes. Your friends will be able to tell if you are telling them things or are you scolding them.

    When it comes to written language, it does not have the luxury of such observations. Everything is penned down. The feelings, the emotions, etc. One cannot see facial expressions or hear the tone of the sentence and this will lead to a lot of misunderstandings. Also, in writing, we cannot expect the reader to feel exactly what we are trying to feel. There are no emotions on the words, just a mere string of alphabets put together trying to express what we think.

    Coming back to this topic, and sorry for the off topic, I think all of us are free to comment on any picture that is posted. Some sees it as science, some as art, some as something amusing and some as "unpleasant events". We should write, comment or criticize, with the thought in mind that is the reader able to perceive what we are trying to tell him/her and not have him/her misled as something else?

    So I think we should watch our writing in terms of manners and courtesy and having good intentions in mind, we should be able to deliver the correct message to the reader without having him/her being misled.

    Putting myself as an example. I am sure some of us here had seen my threads and I am sure that one cannot miss but notice the harshness and "unfriendliness" that I received on the posts. Such behavior are uncalled for. I can accept compliments and criticisms but the way the words were put across to me were somehow not pleasant.

    Just a phrase: Nobody owes anybody anything.
    Speaking of ART is USELESS if one cannot FEEL anything.
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  10. #30
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    You know its funny how critism works. It all depends on how you want to intepret it. Sometimes, a simple comment can turn ugly. To me, I dont mind critics at all as long as I get to learn something from it. If its too much too handle, I'll just let it be. Maybe it will go away. Its the same like getting criticism from work. Like it or not, there's always someone with a different opinion. Can't entertain everyone you know.

    So my advise is, post more pics for us to see. Let the photo-critics do their usual routine. At the end of the day, you are your own 'best' critic. Cheers!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeckson Chow
    Perhaps you may want to look at the way you present your comments, my friend? We are writing comments, not speaking. There is a difference in the written language and the spoken language. Appropriate words will have to be used. One can still deliver the message but yet can make it sound so subtle that the reader will not get offended in any way.
    Ya. I agree with what you said. If my memory serve me right, I wasn't rude or anything.

    So, to save myself the trouble, I comment on pics for people who asked for it or people I knew (They will know I critique the pic not the person).

    ** After he buay song with my comments, I have already deleted all comments on his thread**

    Hey! Where's zaren comments that appeared after mine? Post liao then regret huh? hee hee

  12. #32
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    Then that will be alright. From there, we will all see that problem does not lie in you.
    Speaking of ART is USELESS if one cannot FEEL anything.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeckson Chow
    Then that will be alright. From there, we will all see that problem does not lie in you.

    Err.. let's not look at it that way too...

    Just take it as a comment is given when it is not required...

    Anyway, already case closed liao... Just treat it as a lesson learned.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    ...challenged me to post one of my pic...
    sad but true. it is not limted to being a moderator to throw that challenge. many in here like to be thought highly as a guru, but on the other hand, are afraid that there are real professionals looking at their pics so they modestly decline the titleship. However, if you give honest criticisms, they are ready to challenge you to post your pics to prove they are better, if not, they claim to be noobs.

    and yes.. it seems that they are only listening to what they want, the good stuff.. must be loyal Class 95 fans
    “How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.” - Adolf Hitler

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    Ya. I agree with what you said. If my memory serve me right, I wasn't rude or anything.

    So, to save myself the trouble, I comment on pics for people who asked for it or people I knew (They will know I critique the pic not the person).

    ** After he buay song with my comments, I have already deleted all comments on his thread**

    Hey! Where's zaren comments that appeared after mine? Post liao then regret huh? hee hee
    hehehe...... yeah, regret posting liao.
    you can buy better gear but you can't buy a better eye

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by yanyewkay
    sad but true. it is not limted to being a moderator to throw that challenge. many in here like to be thought highly as a guru, but on the other hand, are afraid that there are real professionals looking at their pics so they modestly decline the titleship.
    Mod is moderator of a forum and not a guru. he/she is entrusted to watch out for offensive posts that might disturb the "balance" of the atmosphere that should be in place.

  17. #37
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    aiyah! what is the big deal... this is an open forum
    if you want to post picture, you must expect the bad with the good.

    not everyone understands art, some more and some less.
    but before you can weld your tool (camera) to create art
    you will need to know the technical bits first.
    In order to break the rules and think out of the box,
    you will need to know the rules first.

    cheers and keep shooting

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbma
    To some people the 'rule of third' is important. To me it doesn't matter much. If the photo shows the image or meaning that you are trying to project then you've made it. We follow too many rules and guidelines. It's time to 'think out of the box'. What is art to you may not be art to someone else. So be it! Just make sure you enjoy yourself doing photography. Self satisfaction is more important. Since you spend so much money on equipment and effort then you should be happy and satisfied and not worry too much on what others think.
    Well Said.
    Follow your heart, your passion.
    War is one of the most regrettable human activities.

  19. #39
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    Sorry I had to go on hiatus {very very busy!!!} and I couldn't reply on this thread, but I think I should say something since I started it and perhaps give this issue a good closure.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjmedora
    I totally agree with you... its an artform.. appreciate the message.. techniques are just a guide to helping you make a "better" photo.. Lets not be so "textbook" in appreciating the work done here.
    I occassionally ask myself, "Why do I take pictures?", "What is photography to me?" Why do some of us feel such affinity with a camera? For me, the wicked "third eye" helps me see the world differently - personlly, it is like liberation, revelation. Hence to quote Kathleen Connelly, "I'm always framing". So I agree with kjmedora, photography is an art = a personal form of expressionism.

    Quote Originally Posted by espn
    I think when we post images perhaps a better way to let people see what we're trying to achieve is to explain firstly why we took the image, perhaps that would help.
    Agreed, espn, I think that'd help. I'll do that from now on.

    Quote Originally Posted by student
    I feel the problem is the lack of knowhow to offer critique. Do the people offering critiques have "depth" within them? To one is empty, what can one offer? To offer a meaningful critique, one should be conversant with art in general and photography in particular. Craft and art are irrevocably linked together and cannot be separated. People conversant in such are rare.

    Yes, one can always offer an opinion. And these opinions are useful. But "depth" of critique?

    In the absence of such knowhow, how could critiques be "indepth". There must be depth in the one offering critique.
    I face a similar problem with people commenting on my photoblog. Most of them just tell me "Nice shot!" or "Great capture!" but they don't tell me WHY it's good. The most insane thing is i get like positive comments 90% of the time and get drastically different comments from clubsnap (nothing wrong). However some of them also tell me what a certain visual means to them, and it becomes quite interesting discourse. So, some of my suggestions would be:

    • The photographer should initiate reason for picture / picture essay.
    • Photographer should request type of comments
    • Cs-ers should comment on what they feel about picture, maybe explain why picture works / doesn't work.
    • Cs-ers should not use thread for personal attacks on photographer
    • Photographer must take all comments in stride, use comments constructively


    Quote Originally Posted by GitS
    my feeling is that there are probably more technical photographers here than those that shoot from the heart...this is true of any field, there are many more painters than there are artists.......which is probably why u are feeling the way you do ......

    if on the other hand you are looking purely for technical feedback, you will have no shortage of critques here...its up to you how much credence you want to place on them and how important these are to you...
    I'm not sure if I understand the difference between a technical photographer and a photographer. To me, if you snap a picture, regardless of whatever camera u use, you are an artist creating a picture. Some what just like anyone holding a paintbrush and canvas? Not sure though, this is just what I think.

    I don't intend to disturb the culture of this forum with my stupid suggestions, but my gut feel is that some of your will have more suggestions on how to critique on pictures.

    to quote King Tiger, at the end of the day:

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tiger
    Follow your heart, your passion.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    An incident still haunt me where I gave my sincere critique to a moderator. He turn ugly and challenged me to post one of my pic to show I am better..

    From that day onward, I only try to give critique to those i know or those that I think are putting an effort to learn.
    Wah... How could that happen...
    AFAIK, Ah bin do give good critiques.
    You might disagree with the critiquer on certain issues, such as style or approach, but most importantly, one should always have an open mind to ideas.

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