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Thread: LFC II - You'll never Walk Alone

  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    Lennart Johansson has admitted UEFA made a mistake in not having a rule in place which meant the Champions League winners could automatically defend their trophy.

    For those who do not think that Liverpool, who is defending champion but fail to qualify, should deserve an automatic place in group stage....

    U all now have to admit mistake...like what UEFA President did....

    Hurray...March on Liverpool in 2005/2006.

    Actually I am eyeing for EPL coming season. Hope the extremely packed pre-season (friendly and CL qualifying matches) will not make our player too exhausted or injured...
    I actually think the preseason thing may not be all that bad. I rather we play CL qualifiers than some meaningless Japan friendly games.

    With so many preseason games, Rafa is likely to play fringe players like Welsh, Mellor and Warnock etc more also and will be good for the club and their development.

    Only problem abt all the qualifier is that we need to get our transfers done early. Otherwise, we may not register them in time. Also, IF, a very big IF, Gerrard don't sign by then, we may be forced to leave him out and sell him, ala Owen situation early last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akane
    yeah I really hope he stays. Especially now that we have so many games to play in the next season. I feel that he is a little like Hamann who is able to play in front of the back 4 and when Hamann retires, he is the one to take over.
    Biscan only played well this season... sometime you wonder if their minds is on the field... You looked at Smicer and Biscan and they played so well but sometimes i think it's because of the added motivation of getting a new contract or a new club.

    For Biscan case, he will prob not get his work permit renewed (croatian) and thus no pt keeping him. Similarly for Smicer. Also, Smicer is a bit too old already.

    If we need backup for DM for Hamann, i rather play Welsh more...

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    there'll probably be better players arriving.. so it's ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    Biscan only played well this season... sometime you wonder if their minds is on the field... You looked at Smicer and Biscan and they played so well but sometimes i think it's because of the added motivation of getting a new contract or a new club.

    For Biscan case, he will prob not get his work permit renewed (croatian) and thus no pt keeping him. Similarly for Smicer. Also, Smicer is a bit too old already.

    If we need backup for DM for Hamann, i rather play Welsh more...
    Well, but as everyone knows, for the past few seasons he wasn't given a chance. He played as a defender under Houllier and prior to that he wasn't given much chance.
    I first took notice of Biscan when Liverpool was in Singapore. During the game he showed some skills, I thought he was good then. but Houllier ruined him.
    Confidence is thinking you'll be Champions, arrogance is stating it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    I actually think the preseason thing may not be all that bad. I rather we play CL qualifiers than some meaningless Japan friendly games.

    With so many preseason games, Rafa is likely to play fringe players like Welsh, Mellor and Warnock etc more also and will be good for the club and their development.

    Only problem abt all the qualifier is that we need to get our transfers done early. Otherwise, we may not register them in time. Also, IF, a very big IF, Gerrard don't sign by then, we may be forced to leave him out and sell him, ala Owen situation early last year.
    i think other wise..all preseason is not meaning less..
    we need money to enhance the squad..thus..Japan friendlies
    we need to proceed to CL group stage...thus 6 qualifying matches are important.
    we need to collect more trophies...thus..super cup (only 1 match) is important to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akane
    Well, but as everyone knows, for the past few seasons he wasn't given a chance. He played as a defender under Houllier and prior to that he wasn't given much chance.
    I first took notice of Biscan when Liverpool was in Singapore. During the game he showed some skills, I thought he was good then. but Houllier ruined him.
    yeah.. i think he's pretty skillful, so is smicer. Skill is one thing but passion is another. I have never see them fight so bad for the team until this season. Either it's Houllier's fault or it's Rafa's magic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    i think other wise..all preseason is not meaning less..
    we need money to enhance the squad..thus..Japan friendlies
    we need to proceed to CL group stage...thus 6 qualifying matches are important.
    we need to collect more trophies...thus..super cup (only 1 match) is important to us.
    Yes.. the japan match is lucrative but CL qualifier is more impt so i rather we scapped that. Travelling abroad for friendlies usually spell disasters in regular season as no proper preseason training is done. You look at Real Madrid, Man U or even Brazil's performance after their "lucrative" tours and you can see the similarity as the constant travel, holidaying mood got carried over to regular season.

    As for the qualifier and Super cup, i expect full strength to play Super Cup as it's already start of season and we would certainly want to win another Super Cup.

    For the qualifier, most likely 1st 2 rounds' opponent will not be that strong and we can afford to play some youngsters or we can play the top 11 for 1st leg and get a big lead and play the youngsters in return leg. either way, the youngsters will play, i am sure of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    Yes.. the japan match is lucrative but CL qualifier is more impt so i rather we scapped that. Travelling abroad for friendlies usually spell disasters in regular season as no proper preseason training is done. You look at Real Madrid, Man U or even Brazil's performance after their "lucrative" tours and you can see the similarity as the constant travel, holidaying mood got carried over to regular season.

    As for the qualifier and Super cup, i expect full strength to play Super Cup as it's already start of season and we would certainly want to win another Super Cup.

    For the qualifier, most likely 1st 2 rounds' opponent will not be that strong and we can afford to play some youngsters or we can play the top 11 for 1st leg and get a big lead and play the youngsters in return leg. either way, the youngsters will play, i am sure of that.
    i understand your view...

    but try to tell Rick Perry...Japan friendly is useless. Try to guess his response.

    1 and 2nd round opponent will not be that strong....Soton (who was the last in the EPL table) and Crystal Palace were not strong either....but when we played Pelle and some youngester against them..and we lost the both game shamefully..

    although I dun highly rate them (1st and 2rd qualifying match opponent)...but i dun like the idea of playing youngster against those opponent that are not very strong..

    Lost in the qualifying match will not only result that we fail to advance to the group stage, we also fail to earn at least 5-6m revenue..and the worst is that -- we become the joke. Win the champion, fail to qualify in EPL top 4, appeal and finally get in to play...but then lost in the qualifying match against those team we hardly hear before. I can;t imagine that.

    will only play youngster in those competition that are less important...ie League Cup.
    Last edited by MichaelLee; 13th June 2005 at 11:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    yeah.. i think he's pretty skillful, so is smicer. Skill is one thing but passion is another. I have never see them fight so bad for the team until this season. Either it's Houllier's fault or it's Rafa's magic...
    When Owen, academic youngster turn into European player of the year..it is not Houllier magic. it is the Owen himself.

    When Gerrard or Carra turn into a Gem...it is not the player himself but Rafa magic.

    ?????????????????

    When Houllier turned in a team that "have not been able to qualify to CL and won nothng under pervious manager Evan" to CL team and win UEFA Cup, FA Cup...and beat Everton and MU so many times...it is not Houllier effort.

    When Rafa turn a team (who had qualified to CL 3 times and earn several trophies) into CL Champion ..then it is RAfa magic.

    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

    I am sure u were one the fans who applaud Holliuer when we won the treble.

    and I am pretty sure...if for the next 10 seasons....the only thing won by Rafa is last season CL..many will also critize Rafa like what u comment on Houllier.

    Dun get me wrong..I believe Houllier should go last season and we need to have another new manager coming in.

    But the difference is that..I appreciate what Houllier had contributed to the club...and I dun comment him with extremely biased judgement.

    It is not an easy job to win CL..but it is not an easy job either to rebuid a team left over from Evan to a team that had won so many trophies into a EPL tittle challenging team. (Yes..we did finish 2nd in EPL after houllier took charge in 3rd years.)

    I might make an example.....Houllier inherit the wealth from Evan, and he made $100,000 from $1,000.

    ( u can argue there is Fowler left over by Evan, but what the team won during Evan time and how many CL game they had played)

    Rafa inherit the wealth from Houllier, and he made $1,000,000 from $100,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    When Owen, academic youngster turn into European player of the year..it is not Houllier magic. it is the Owen himself.

    When Gerrard or Carra turn into a Gem...it is not the player himself but Rafa magic.

    ?????????????????
    Owen became European Player of the Year is a decision i do not agree as i dun think he deserves it anyway. If he's not even the best player in EPL, how can he be the European Player of the year? In any case, Owen was a damn fine player when he was 15/16, when Houllier was still French National Team Coach IIRC. He was already touted as the next Rush or Fowler when he plays for England Youth Team. I do not really see much improvement in Owen under Houllier. In fact, i think Owen became worse towards the end of Houllier's reign but i wouldn't blame Houllier but rather on Owen's injuries.

    As for Gerrard, Houllier prob can claim that he turned gerrard into top player. That i agree. As for Carra, under Houllier, carra is extremely frustrated as he switched from left to right, right to left and sometimes as CD or DM. He was only on the fringe of the team and Houllier even use Biscan instead of Carra as CD to disastrous effect. So for Carra, i think Houliier fails to see his potential as CD but only see his versatility.

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    When Houllier turned in a team that "have not been able to qualify to CL and won nothng under pervious manager Evan" to CL team and win UEFA Cup, FA Cup...and beat Everton and MU so many times...it is not Houllier effort.

    When Rafa turn a team (who had qualified to CL 3 times and earn several trophies) into CL Champion ..then it is RAfa magic.

    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????
    Well, again, Liverpool fails to qualify under Evans for CL and thus Houllier appointed as joint mgr and they still did not qualify until next season. I am sure most people agree that at that time, when Evans left, the team we had is good enough to get to CL every year and thus Evans underachieved. At that point, only Man U and Arsenal are superior than us so we shd finish top 3 or 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    I am sure u were one the fans who applaud Holliuer when we won the treble.

    and I am pretty sure...if for the next 10 seasons....the only thing won by Rafa is last season CL..many will also critize Rafa like what u comment on Houllier.

    Dun get me wrong..I believe Houllier should go last season and we need to have another new manager coming in.

    But the difference is that..I appreciate what Houllier had contributed to the club...and I dun comment him with extremely biased judgement.
    Sure, i appauld Houllier when we won the treble but i also feel at that time, we are extremely fortunate esp in the FA cup and UEFA Cup. We played well on route to final but was clearly out-played by Arsenal and it's similar to this year's FA cup final in that Man U totally outplayed Arsenal but end up losing. As for Alaves, they are the crystal palace or WBA of Spanish league and yet we struggled to win despite going 2-0 up early and ended up had to relied on an own goal when they were 2 men down in extra time.... Sure, luck have played a HUGE part in our 2 finals.

    Also, as mentioned by you before and agreed by me. Houllier had bought many dubious players such as the New Zidane (Cheyrou), African Player of the year (Diouf, but i think he's good just playing for the wrong manager), Traore, Diarra, Ferri etc. Many of which hardly play a game for HIM. Which is strange since he bought them! Even for Smicer and Biscan, it's the same situation. Also, Houllier has failed to promote any of the youngsters from Academy. Owen was already in 1st team and Gerrard was breaking thru when he took over and after that? None.

    My critism for Houllier is that he's not brave enough to admit his mistakes when he fail in his 5 year plan (he keeps claiming he's still in his 5th when it's his 6th) or with his failed signings. He also let many gems slipped by such as Anelka and Litmanen. Litmanen was so disillusioned with him that he went back to Holland.

    What i think of Houllier is he clearly lacks the clarity of how he wants the team to be. When people critisize his team being defensive, he tries to go all offensive and start losing matches. You dun see Real Madrid or Man U going all defensive right? Similarly, you dun see Everton or Bolton playing offensive right? You gotta play to your strengths to win. We finished top 3 in Houllier's time is due to the defence partnership of Hyypia and Henchoz as well as pretty good goalkeeping by Westerveld plus the excellent Hamann in his prime. That's our strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    It is not an easy job to win CL..but it is not an easy job either to rebuid a team left over from Evan to a team that had won so many trophies into a EPL tittle challenging team. (Yes..we did finish 2nd in EPL after houllier took charge in 3rd years.)

    I might make an example.....Houllier inherit the wealth from Evan, and he made $100,000 from $1,000.

    ( u can argue there is Fowler left over by Evan, but what the team won during Evan time and how many CL game they had played)

    Rafa inherit the wealth from Houllier, and he made $1,000,000 from $100,000.
    Yup i knew we finished top 3 when he's in charge but thats the season whereby Man U just simply collapse (IIRC, Keane and Solkjaer was injured for almost full season and Andy & Yorke wasn't playing well) and we played well playing defensive football (ala 2005 Chelsea except we dun finished as well as Chelsea, when Robben and Duff is fit). We picked up a lot of points esp against top side as we played defensive against them but still lose to lower clubs like Bolton, Fulham etc when we were more adventurous.

    I wouldn't say Houllier wins with the team that Evans passed on to him. Of the players that Evans left behind, there's carra, gerrard, owen and fowler, macca (1 season), Berger (3 seasons?)... After that are mostly players that he signed. And the thing is after he took over, and spending so much money... it's still the same liverpool-borned players that are the top players. This proves that, prob with the exception of Hyypia and Hamann, Houllier has failed in his transfer dealings.
    He certainly did not turn 1,000 into 100,000.

    As for Rafa, yes, we did not win the treble. However, we did make it to the League Cup final and should have win it if not for Gerrard's own goal. We also win the CL against all odds. In the league, we finished 5th but it's prob due more to the fact that Rafa has more serious injuries this season that when Houllier faced in his 5-6 seasons. Also, CL is also more demanding in terms of opponent than UEFA cup. For FA cup, if not for Traore's own goal, i am sure we will not be out on the 1st hurdle so a bit unlucky on that.

    As for players, Carra definitely become better, so is Finnan, Traore, Biscan. Hyypia and Hamann prob deteriorated a bit due to ageing. Gerrard, Kewell, Smicer more or less the same. When it comes to Rafa's signing, it's a mixed bag as well. Lius Garcia and Alonso proved to be good. Morientes and nunez showed some potential and i believe will turn out fine. Pelle and Josemi are not good enough. So, he's still not proven his worth.

    However, as you have said, he made 1,000,000 out of 100,000 and proved that he can bring out the best in the players as show in Carra, Finnan, Traore and Biscan etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    Owen became European Player of the Year is a decision i do not agree as i dun think he deserves it anyway. If he's not even the best player in EPL, how can he be the European Player of the year?
    If this is your logic...can I say that Liverpool also not deserve to be European Champion. If Liverpool is not even the best team in EPL, how can he be the Champion League Champion.


    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    As for Gerrard, Houllier prob can claim that he turned gerrard into top player. That i agree. As for Carra, under Houllier, carra is extremely frustrated as he switched from left to right, right to left and sometimes as CD or DM. He was only on the fringe of the team and Houllier even use Biscan instead of Carra as CD to disastrous effect. So for Carra, i think Houliier fails to see his potential as CD but only see his versatility.
    Most people never show the appreciation that Houllier did on Gerrard...but only see Houllier fault on not to see Carra potential to be best CD.

    Houllier did discover Hyypia...but he also tried to play Biscan and Traore as CD at fault. Whereas Hyypia for he last 4 season was a core player cum captian and vice captain. Biscan and Traore are not the core player. I carry more weight on the credit of getting the core player/captain..in comparison to giving less weight on critising on those less important player...


    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    Well, again, Liverpool fails to qualify under Evans for CL and thus Houllier appointed as joint mgr and they still did not qualify until next season. I am sure most people agree that at that time, when Evans left, the team we had is good enough to get to CL every year and thus Evans underachieved. At that point, only Man U and Arsenal are superior than us so we shd finish top 3 or 4..
    U had concluded the final -Under SOuness and Evans..we never play any Champion. Under Houllier...we qualified 3 times..Including this season.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    Sure, i appauld Houllier when we won the treble but i also feel at that time, we are extremely fortunate esp in the FA cup and UEFA Cup. We played well on route to final but was clearly out-played by Arsenal and it's similar to this year's FA cup final in that Man U totally outplayed Arsenal but end up losing. As for Alaves, they are the crystal palace or WBA of Spanish league and yet we struggled to win despite going 2-0 up early and ended up had to relied on an own goal when they were 2 men down in extra time.... Sure, luck have played a HUGE part in our 2 finals.
    Yes....we managed to march on as European Champion,...it is all Rafa magic.. but when we manage to win FA cup, league cup, Uefa cup, Super Cup, Charity Sheild, train up Owen and Gerrard, qualify to Champion League 3 times...are all due to luck...Houllier suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    My critism for Houllier is that he's not brave enough to admit his mistakes when he fail in his 5 year plan (he keeps claiming he's still in his 5th when it's his 6th) or with his failed signings. He also let many gems slipped by such as Anelka and Litmanen. Litmanen was so disillusioned with him that he went back to Holland.

    What i think of Houllier is he clearly lacks the clarity of how he wants the team to be. When people critisize his team being defensive, he tries to go all offensive and start losing matches. You dun see Real Madrid or Man U going all defensive right? Similarly, you dun see Everton or Bolton playing offensive right? You gotta play to your strengths to win. We finished top 3 in Houllier's time is due to the defence partnership of Hyypia and Henchoz as well as pretty good goalkeeping by Westerveld plus the excellent Hamann in his prime. That's our strength.
    This is I totally agree. I felt very tulan when we have Litmanen, such a good player wasted but Smicer was given more opportunities. and he preferred Diouf rather than Anelka.

    he was doing well to build the team on our strength to win trophies...Our strenght built on defensive counterattack strategy. I never mourn we played this type of game as long as I enjoyed LFC winning. (btw..were u the one who also shout for changes ?) This stupid French could not hold his attempt and started to play attacking football....then we lose all.. then houllier started to lose his head...and after that all wrong signings..that ;s why at the end..I also ask for a new manager..


    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    I wouldn't say Houllier wins with the team that Evans passed on to him. Of the players that Evans left behind, there's carra, gerrard, owen and fowler, macca (1 season), Berger (3 seasons?)... After that are mostly players that he signed. And the thing is after he took over, and spending so much money... it's still the same liverpool-borned players that are the top players. This proves that, prob with the exception of Hyypia and Hamann, Houllier has failed in his transfer dealings. He certainly did not turn 1,000 into 100,000.
    tell me what Evan won for the LFC and how many times Evan team got to play Champion League..we can start to look at it from there...


    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    However, as you have said, he made 1,000,000 out of 100,000 and proved that he can bring out the best in the players as show in Carra, Finnan, Traore and Biscan etc.
    I agree. Houllier see the potential of Carra, Finnan, Traore and Biscan,. But he failed to make them into a real gem.

    but at least Rafa has the potential player availability on hand to turn them into real gem. Look at the the team we beat Chelsea, Juv and Milan. Only Alonso is Rafa signing.

    Compared to Houllier...he was less fortunate. He did not even have much good or potential players to start with.
    Look at the squad that we won UEFA Cup ..more than 50% were Houllier signings ..

    Again my point is that...I am not saying that Houllier is a better manager than Rafa.

    I agree Rafa is a better manager than Houllier.
    I agree Houllier should left LFC at the end of last season.

    But I appreciated Houllier effort..and I overall rated Houllier did more good to team...(a rebuilt program from Evans team) , not to mention the Cup eh won for us...and the team he left over to Rafa, that Rafa turn in extra genious effort to turn them into European Champion.

    Overall..I thanks Houllier.

    but i still hold on curse on Souness..can u imagine he turn newscatle to finish 14th (or wast it 15th) this seaon in EPL table ? (after robson made them 4th and 5th at the last 3 previous season)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    If this is your logic...can I say that Liverpool also not deserve to be European Champion. If Liverpool is not even the best team in EPL, how can he be the Champion League Champion.
    The difference being European Player of the Year is the best player in Europe for that year. It will take into account the league performance, international performance etc. Liverpool deserved to be CL champion not because they were the best in the EPL but because of their performance in CL, esp during the knock-out stages. If you knock out teams like Juve & Chelsea (esp this season) and defeat AC in the final after going 3-0 down in 1st half, you deserve to be CL champion.

    As for Owen, he was not even the top scorer for EPL. He did not win anything for England in that year. He's prob not the best liverpool player that year ( i believe shd be Gerrard). So how can he be European Player of the Year?

    [QUOTE=wong_se]
    Most people never show the appreciation that Houllier did on Gerrard...but only see Houllier fault on not to see Carra potential to be best CD.

    Houllier did discover Hyypia...but he also tried to play Biscan and Traore as CD at fault. Whereas Hyypia for he last 4 season was a core player cum captian and vice captain. Biscan and Traore are not the core player. I carry more weight on the credit of getting the core player/captain..in comparison to giving less weight on critising on those less important player../QUOTE]

    As i have mentioned, when Houllier took over, gerrard already is breaking into the 1st team. He finally forced into starting 11 the following season. I think Houllier shd be appauld for his effort to rest Owen and Gerrard more so than to say he groom them. I do not see any significant improvement in both of them under Houllier. Rather, he protected them by playing them less during their injury-ridden seasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    U had concluded the final -Under SOuness and Evans..we never play any Champion. Under Houllier...we qualified 3 times..Including this season.

    Yes....we managed to march on as European Champion,...it is all Rafa magic.. but when we manage to win FA cup, league cup, Uefa cup, Super Cup, Charity Sheild, train up Owen and Gerrard, qualify to Champion League 3 times...are all due to luck...Houllier suck.
    Yup we have underachieved under both Souness and Evans. However, you have to rem that CL used to be only top 3 in EPL qualifies. I think it was only changed when Houllier is in charge.

    We must rem also that under Souness and Evans, we still did win. We won FA cup (91/92) , League Cup (94/95) and even won a FA Youth CUp (95/96) ( i believe Owen was in that team)

    All i said is we are lucky to win FA cup and Uefa cup. For Uefa cup, we did defeat a few tough opponents but we are definitely did not play as well as we did in CL this season.

    Charity Shield and Super Cup as well as League Cup, we prob deserve it more. Also, we won League cup against Birmingham (then in division 1).

    Let's put things in perspective, under houllier, in his 3rd season, we won FA Cup, League Cup & Uefa cup. Under Rafa,in his 1st season, using mainly Houllier's players and with so much injuries and departure of Owen, top scorer, we won CL (more superior than UEFA cup, don't you agree?), lost against Chelsea in League cup due mainly to own goal by Gerrard (whereas we won under houllier against much weaker opponent.

    We still may win the Super Cup this season but not Charity Shield (not qualify as thats for FA Cup winner & EPL champion).

    So on balance of things, i still feel Rafa is better. Yes, he may not have exceeded Houllier's tally yet but he has revolunised the play with essentially similar players. He managed to play attacking football and win CL which Houllier tried with disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    This is I totally agree. I felt very tulan when we have Litmanen, such a good player wasted but Smicer was given more opportunities. and he preferred Diouf rather than Anelka.

    he was doing well to build the team on our strength to win trophies...Our strenght built on defensive counterattack strategy. I never mourn we played this type of game as long as I enjoyed LFC winning. (btw..were u the one who also shout for changes ?) This stupid French could not hold his attempt and started to play attacking football....then we lose all.. then houllier started to lose his head...and after that all wrong signings..that ;s why at the end..I also ask for a new manager..
    Yup, thats my point exactly, he's losing his plot. Even now, he still tries to sign Baros. Which is ridicules since Baros already suffer under him at Liverpool and he's unable to bring out the best in baros.

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    tell me what Evan won for the LFC and how many times Evan team got to play Champion League..we can start to look at it from there.....
    Evans is a victim actually. He's not suitable to be a manager but was thrust into limelight as they wanted one of the liverpool lads to be manager. He's too soft and happens that there are too many indiscipline players esp since Souness (the disciplinarian) has left. The fault actually starts from Dalglish's resignation and Souness apointment.

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    I agree. Houllier see the potential of Carra, Finnan, Traore and Biscan,. But he failed to make them into a real gem.

    but at least Rafa has the potential player availability on hand to turn them into real gem. Look at the the team we beat Chelsea, Juv and Milan. Only Alonso is Rafa signing.

    Compared to Houllier...he was less fortunate. He did not even have much good or potential players to start with.
    Look at the squad that we won UEFA Cup ..more than 50% were Houllier signings ..

    Again my point is that...I am not saying that Houllier is a better manager than Rafa.

    I agree Rafa is a better manager than Houllier.
    I agree Houllier should left LFC at the end of last season.

    But I appreciated Houllier effort..and I overall rated Houllier did more good to team...(a rebuilt program from Evans team) , not to mention the Cup eh won for us...and the team he left over to Rafa, that Rafa turn in extra genious effort to turn them into European Champion.

    Overall..I thanks Houllier.

    but i still hold on curse on Souness..can u imagine he turn newscatle to finish 14th (or wast it 15th) this seaon in EPL table ? (after robson made them 4th and 5th at the last 3 previous season)
    Most of the team in Rafa's team is Houllier's signing. The players that brought us to CL success is however mainly Garcia's scoring in knockout stage. It would be safe to say that Morientes will be pretty useful in CL since he won at Real and top-score while he's with Monaco.

    I thank Houllier for his achievement but hate him for his blunders in transfer dealings and inability to get players to perform.

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    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    read this!

    wa say... want to come to Liverpool then u jolly well sign on the dotted line. wat is this? a clever ploy to mark up his salary?

    who needs this Reina??? don't yayapapaya here, k!

    we've got Du the DUDEK!!!!
    You'll Never Walk Alone! - i have the best job in the world!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    As for Owen, he was not even the top scorer for EPL. He did not win anything for England in that year. He's prob not the best liverpool player that year ( i believe shd be Gerrard). So how can he be European Player of the Year?

    UEFA player are voted by a group of football professional and committee.
    They voted Owen but u may have different view.
    Of course everyone hold their right of the own view..but UEFA opinion is more superior than others. Unless one show he is more knowledgable to understand football more than UEFA committe..

    In this case..I respect UEFA decision.

    On the houllier issuse there is no end of the arguement. Simply because the judgement base is very different. I am a bit more objective, and u are too extremely biased..(ie when Houllier won, it was becasue we are lucky. When Rafa won,..he simply da best. when Houllier trained up gerrard, nothing is credit. when Rafa train up biscan, he is da best).

    U might find thousands of reason of other factors..such as ie..we finish 2nd because other teams are falling...etc..etc.

    However, u may accept/deny thousands of reasons/excuse..but no one can deny the fact ie....the cup we won, the number of CL, etc..

    To judge a manager..I weighted 90% judgement in no of trophies that he had won.... If not judged by number of trophies ..I might as well say that Ian
    Rush is the best coach in the world.
    Last edited by MichaelLee; 13th June 2005 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis32
    I thank Houllier for his achievement but hate him for his blunders in transfer dealings and inability to get players to perform.
    good to hear that u do appreciate houllier effort..as u are 1 who cheered when he brought us the treble.

    albeit that he made some blunders tranfers. i still rate him as a far better manager compared to souness and evans, who had also made some blunder transfer but won nothing.

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    hmm Biscan might be joining WBA

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    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    wa lau eh...


    can talk about TRANSFER instead of some statistic?


    com'on u REDS!!

    and IGOR!! Wise up! a move to WBA will be the ultimate platform to see ur career flushed down the chute!! bryan robson?!?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake
    and IGOR!! Wise up! a move to WBA will be the ultimate platform to see ur career flushed down the chute!! bryan robson?!?!
    so both Kirkland and Biscan moving to WBA. I think they had a good deal.
    Of course when they play Liverpool in the coming season..I hope Biscan and kirkland turn into a frog....... and made some blunders

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    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    so both Kirkland and Biscan moving to WBA. I think they had a good deal.
    Of course when they play Liverpool in the coming season..I hope Biscan and kirkland turn into a frog....... and made some blunders
    Kirkland prob on 1 year loan. I think Kirkland still has a chance to make it for Liverpool provided he stays injury free. 1 year on, prob Dudek also not at liverpool already..

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    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    UEFA player are voted by a group of football professional and committee.
    They voted Owen but u may have different view.
    Of course everyone hold their right of the own view..but UEFA opinion is more superior than others. Unless one show he is more knowledgable to understand football more than UEFA committe..

    In this case..I respect UEFA decision.
    Yes. There will be supporters for Owen etc etc.. I just feel Owen do not deserve it, esp based on his form etc. As for UEFA, it's a huge organisation and highly political... Not all on committees are football experts. A lot of them are just Administrators... and rose up the ranks in their respective football associations. It's like saying that Sepp Blatter is a better judge on footballing ability than Franz Beckanbauer.

    If you look at a lot of their decisions, they are treating football as a business more than anything. Hence, the tournaments like World Club Championship etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by wong_se
    On the houllier issuse there is no end of the arguement. Simply because the judgement base is very different. I am a bit more objective, and u are too extremely biased..(ie when Houllier won, it was becasue we are lucky. When Rafa won,..he simply da best. when Houllier trained up gerrard, nothing is credit. when Rafa train up biscan, he is da best).

    U might find thousands of reason of other factors..such as ie..we finish 2nd because other teams are falling...etc..etc.

    However, u may accept/deny thousands of reasons/excuse..but no one can deny the fact ie....the cup we won, the number of CL, etc..

    To judge a manager..I weighted 90% judgement in no of trophies that he had won.... If not judged by number of trophies ..I might as well say that Ian
    Rush is the best coach in the world.
    I did not discredit his part for the 5 trophies. I am just stating the facts and how the 2 finals pans out. We are indeed lucky to win those finals and am i happy about it? Of course i am since i am a diehard football fans.

    When we evaluate how a team perform, it's impt to think of other teams. We are not isolated.

    When Houllier was in charge, isn;t it true that Man U and Arsenal are the dominant forces in EPL? hardly any other team can get to top 2 except for 1 year where we finish 2nd. And isn't it true that that's the year Man U was beset with injuries? Did we finish 2nd the following season? Similarly, this season, we finish 5th due mainly to our injuries and involvement in CL and Carling Cup etc as we are very thin in depth. We have to be objective. We cannot say we suffer because of injuries and say Man U will not underperform because Roy Keane and Solkjaer was injured. It's like taking out Gerrard and say Heskey at Houllier's reign and expecting Liverpool to finish 2nd?

    Statistics don;t show such details. Stats does not show that we have tons of injuries. It does not show that we don't have Owen, our top scorer this year. All it shows is we are 5th.

    I am not arguing abt results, cups or league positions. To me, the impt thing is how we perform relative to others.

    During Houllier's team, it's mainly Arsenal and Man U, period. Liverpool, Chelsea and Newcastle can only fight for 3rd place. And of the 3 teams, Liverpool is deinitely the stronger team and hence should be at least 3 place each season. We almost did, as we only lose out to Chelsea on last match 2 seasons ago rem? If Chelsea was to lose that match, they would prob not be attractive to Roman already.... We actually have a part in that...

    It is also true that CL places only for top2 and 3rd will have to qualify. fourth have no places until 2001? So if you compare with now. it's not comparing apple to apple as Rafa only need to finish top 4 to qualify whereas Houllier needs top 3? This is not subjective right?

    As for whether gerrard is trained by Houllier or Biscan is trained by Rafa... We will never know to what extent. A lot of time, these players are already in their prime and not much can improve. It's more impt to bring out the best in them, which i think Houllier fails. In fact, Traore just said that Houllier did not treat the French players right... which is strange since he signs them. Did he groom players like Traore, La Tallec or Pongolle? These are the players that requires Grooming... Did he bring out the best of his signings? Biscan (regular in Croatia team), Smicer (regular in Czech team and french league champion with Lens), Baros (Euro'04 top scorer, one of the youngest regular in Czech team), Litmanen (best player from finland by a mile (hyypia doesn;t even come close)), Diouf (african player of the year and regular in Senegal), Anelka (top french striker), Cheyrou (just broke into french national team then), Kewell (best australian player by a mile again and top player for Leeds). These signings are all good signings and costs lots of money in some cases.

    If you compare the quality of players he signed and spent with say Souness... you can really see my point.

    Houllier managed to sign very good players and either don't utilise them properly, out of position (Biscan, Litmanen, Kewell) or simply cannot bring out the best in them (Anelka, Cheyrou, Smicer, Biscan and Baros).

    In some cases, he actually ended a few international careers (including Cantona and Ginola if you rem abt his french national team debacle) such as Cheyrou, Litmanen etc.

    What's remarkable is what happens after he left. After he left, Baros is Euro 2004 top scorer, Diarra , on loan, became a french national team regular? Diouf, on loan, helps bolton to their UEFA cup place. Traore, Biscan, Finnan and Carra all becomes better player, isn't it? All this is credited to his Grooming? I think not right?

    Sure, Souness and Evans sucks... But if you rem correctly, they were not given so much transfer funds. Purse strings were loosen when Houllier came in. Liverpool was desperate, yes, desperate for success, that they employ foreign manager, as a joint manager then manager. Someone who fails to bring France to World Cup and ended Ginola, Papin and Cantona international careersand unproven. Sure, a lot of people also credited him for his work at the fountainbleu academy where henry, anelka, treseguet trains, but that is more on spotting talents.

    Souness signs fringe players or obsure international players like Ronnie Rosenthal, Jason McAteer, Karme, Erik Meijer, Sean Dundee, Song, Bjonebye, Ruddock etc. His star players are actually those from the academy like Fowler, Macca, Rednapp and carra etc which all went on to play for Houllier.

    So Houllier has better resources compared with Souness in terms of money and good players as the academy players all martured.

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