FZ10 'M' Mode Pic Recording FAQ.

donchua · 3rd May 2005

When shutter speed was 1sec to 8sec on FZ10 'M' mode, it will took quite
a few sec to record the pic before I can take the next pic.
The longer the shutter, the longer it took to be ready for the next pic.
Anyway to overcome it or it is just the norm?
Thanks.

incubus · 3rd May 2005

errrrrr
i believe because the shutter is open?
dats y it has to finiish opening and closing the shutter den it records the data on to the card.
depending on the shutter, eevn tho i have not compared with others... but i think its normal

Kavana · 3rd May 2005

ya so far it is normal for my FZ10 too.

donchua · 4th May 2005

Originally Posted by incubus

errrrrr
i believe because the shutter is open?
dats y it has to finiish opening and closing the shutter den it records the data on to the card.
depending on the shutter, eevn tho i have not compared with others... but i think its normal

I had timed the whole process.
For 4sec shutter, after shutter button pressed, black screen with red dot
blinking for 4sec, this should be the shutter open & close right?
After that, blue screen with 'Please wait' appeared for another 4sec, this
process is recording to card.
Total of around 8sec for a 4sec shutter.
For 8sec shutter, it will be 8sec + 8sec = 16sec.
It will always double the shutter speed set before ready for next pic.

donchua · 4th May 2005

Originally Posted by Kavana

ya so far it is normal for my FZ10 too.

Ok.

donchua · 4th May 2005

Got a thinking..
I am using Kingston Elite Pro & Kingmax Platinum, should be around 60X.
If getting a 80X SD, will it help in reducing the writting time?
Or still the same due to the cam spec..

josho · 4th May 2005

Originally Posted by donchua

Got a thinking..
I am using Kingston Elite Pro & Kingmax Platinum, should be around 60X.
If getting a 80X SD, will it help in reducing the writting time?
Or still the same due to the cam spec..

maybe got to do something testing. If anyone had the 80x card, can try it this Sat of the PLUG outing.

donchua · 4th May 2005

Originally Posted by josho

maybe got to do something testing. If anyone had the 80x card, can try it this Sat of the PLUG outing.

This Sat PLUG I got to miss it as I going Msia from Fri till Sun..

donchua · 4th May 2005

I just did a few tested with my normal speed Kingston 512MB SD with
the Kingmax & Elite Pro.
The both hi-speed card only around 1sec faster than the normal card.

direwuff · 4th May 2005

is it the dark frame subtraction? it's double because it needs to take a second exposure (dark frame)..

donchua · 4th May 2005

Originally Posted by direwuff

is it the dark frame subtraction? it's double because it needs to take a second exposure (dark frame)..

I don't quite get what you mean...

What I tested is that the total time taken for the black screen with red
dot (shutter open) & blue screen with 'Please wait' (writting) will be double
of the shutter speed time on my 2 hi-speed card, ie shutter speed 4sec, total
will be +4sec writting = 8sec, shutter speed 8sc will be +8sec = 16sec.
Compared the above with my normal speed card, it took total around 1sec more
for the whole process to complete.

Where else if using burst shoot of 5 frames, normal card took around 8sec
to complete writting & hi-speed took around 3sec to complete writting.

So I presume be it a higher speed then 60X, it won't make a diff in the M
mode.
Unless I can persuade myself to spend extra around $30 just to get
a 80X card to play play..

cheewooi · 4th May 2005

MY fz20 also the same........tested other prosumer cam oso....especially long shutter....
I using Fast card Kingmax Platinum Pro 60X anD Transcxend 45X.......

It is normal for all long shutter shooting!

MyNikon · 5th May 2005

Not too sure about Panasonic cameras.
But if they come with Noise Reduction feature, try turn that off as it will take double the time to write to the card.
Just like my Nikon D70 with Noise Reduction on.

unseen · 5th May 2005

LOL no, Panasonic cam don't have dark frame subtraction. we muz do it manually via photoshop.

hmmm don't think faster SD cards will help the FZ20.. it's an older camera..
Keith, the Panasonic man, said the FZ5 can make use of Pro-Speed cards. FZ20 can't.

Just for comparison sake, FZ5 takes close to 0seconds to write after taking a burst of 4 shots max resolution jpg.
about 0.5 s to write after taking a 8 s photo, but takes a whole 8s to compose sensor data from 8s of exposure into 1 frame.

flowerpot99 · 11th May 2005

Hey I think its not the problem with the cards. The time it took is for the camera to run noise reduction on the image taken before its recorded on the card. Thats y the longer the exposure the longer its takes.
However, for burst shot it will be able to utilise a fast card more since pic under a certain shutter speed do not under go noise reduction before its recorded.
Try turning the noise reduction off and it will be faster I think

direwuff · 11th May 2005

Originally Posted by unseen

LOL no, Panasonic cam don't have dark frame subtraction. we muz do it manually via photoshop.

are you sure abt this?

Hong Jia · 11th May 2005

What is dark frame substraction... FZ10 got...? or FZ20 have...???

Someone pls enlighten me...

My FZ10 go hospital liao... cameraless..

unseen · 11th May 2005

dark frame substraction is like this..

suppose the camera takes a 8 second exposure.
if DFS is on, then it'll close shutter and take another exposure of the same shutter speed. It will be totally black because the shutter is not open, but the CCD or CMOS is exposed for an equally long time, and any CCD/CMOS defect/detection error will be recorded as colour/noise.

the theory behind this is that the black photo will have similar noise pattern to the exposed shot. (they're pretty much spot on)
After the 2nd shot, the camera will "compare" the 2 photos, and do noise removal where it detects noise (rem, the 2nd photo is supposed to be totally black. anything not black is noise)

Thus, do your maths, you will know see that it takes at least double the amount of exposure time (2x shutter speed) + subtraction/calculation speed.

As far as I know, short of a (nikon only i think. not sure about canon) DSLR, no other cam has such a thing. They have the ability to turn it off (how pro can a camera be if u take 10+++ s to take a 5 s photo, imagine how much fireworks you'll miss)

Hope that helps dude..

Hong Jia · 11th May 2005

Okie i see... it is just like a noise reduction algorithm lahz...?

unseen · 12th May 2005

Yupz, it's something like a NR algo.. this is supposed to be much more accurate than anything else. You won't lose any so-called sharpness or details because chances of error is reduced to really low. After all, if CCD/CMOS got something wrong, it's gonna show up in both the photos. This is better in real world applications.

NR algos are theoratical in another way (at least, for NeatImage etc): They take into consideration that a DC sensor has got millions of sensor groups packed into a 1/24". if i'm not wrong, each group has got RGB sub sensors (making 3X more sensors) With the way they pack the CCD or CMOS, physical limitations may cause electrical ananomlies, causing some sensors to "detect" when there shouldn't be anything.
This pattern can be "deduced" and thus used to apply across the image. You lose details because some of those fine details match how the noise pattern is formed.

Thus, you can't really say that DFS is actually a NR algo.
Cheers. hope you can catch that.

3rd May 2005	#1
donchua Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tampines Posts: 7,814	FZ10 'M' Mode Pic Recording FAQ. When shutter speed was 1sec to 8sec on FZ10 'M' mode, it will took quite a few sec to record the pic before I can take the next pic. The longer the shutter, the longer it took to be ready for the next pic. Anyway to overcome it or it is just the norm? Thanks.

3rd May 2005	#2
incubus Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: galaxy far far away Posts: 1,505	errrrrr i believe because the shutter is open? dats y it has to finiish opening and closing the shutter den it records the data on to the card. depending on the shutter, eevn tho i have not compared with others... but i think its normal __________________ Deviantart shahrulazmi.com

11th May 2005	#18
unseen Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NTU and Wdls Posts: 2,608	dark frame substraction is like this.. suppose the camera takes a 8 second exposure. if DFS is on, then it'll close shutter and take another exposure of the same shutter speed. It will be totally black because the shutter is not open, but the CCD or CMOS is exposed for an equally long time, and any CCD/CMOS defect/detection error will be recorded as colour/noise. the theory behind this is that the black photo will have similar noise pattern to the exposed shot. (they're pretty much spot on) After the 2nd shot, the camera will "compare" the 2 photos, and do noise removal where it detects noise (rem, the 2nd photo is supposed to be totally black. anything not black is noise) Thus, do your maths, you will know see that it takes at least double the amount of exposure time (2x shutter speed) + subtraction/calculation speed. As far as I know, short of a (nikon only i think. not sure about canon) DSLR, no other cam has such a thing. They have the ability to turn it off (how pro can a camera be if u take 10+++ s to take a 5 s photo, imagine how much fireworks you'll miss) Hope that helps dude.. Last edited by unseen; 11th May 2005 at 08:07 PM.

3rd May 2005	#3
Kavana Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 595	ya so far it is normal for my FZ10 too.

4th May 2005	#6
donchua Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tampines Posts: 7,814	Got a thinking.. I am using Kingston Elite Pro & Kingmax Platinum, should be around 60X. If getting a 80X SD, will it help in reducing the writting time? Or still the same due to the cam spec..

4th May 2005	#10
direwuff Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 913	is it the dark frame subtraction? it's double because it needs to take a second exposure (dark frame)..

4th May 2005	#12
cheewooi Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lion's City Posts: 103	MY fz20 also the same........tested other prosumer cam oso....especially long shutter.... I using Fast card Kingmax Platinum Pro 60X anD Transcxend 45X....... It is normal for all long shutter shooting!

5th May 2005	#13
MyNikon Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bedok North Posts: 290	Not too sure about Panasonic cameras. But if they come with Noise Reduction feature, try turn that off as it will take double the time to write to the card. Just like my Nikon D70 with Noise Reduction on.

11th May 2005	#15
flowerpot99 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: north Posts: 629	Hey I think its not the problem with the cards. The time it took is for the camera to run noise reduction on the image taken before its recorded on the card. Thats y the longer the exposure the longer its takes. However, for burst shot it will be able to utilise a fast card more since pic under a certain shutter speed do not under go noise reduction before its recorded. Try turning the noise reduction off and it will be faster I think

11th May 2005	#17
Hong Jia Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 917	What is dark frame substraction... FZ10 got...? or FZ20 have...??? Someone pls enlighten me... My FZ10 go hospital liao... cameraless..

12th May 2005	#20
unseen Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NTU and Wdls Posts: 2,608	Yupz, it's something like a NR algo.. this is supposed to be much more accurate than anything else. You won't lose any so-called sharpness or details because chances of error is reduced to really low. After all, if CCD/CMOS got something wrong, it's gonna show up in both the photos. This is better in real world applications. NR algos are theoratical in another way (at least, for NeatImage etc): They take into consideration that a DC sensor has got millions of sensor groups packed into a 1/24". if i'm not wrong, each group has got RGB sub sensors (making 3X more sensors) With the way they pack the CCD or CMOS, physical limitations may cause electrical ananomlies, causing some sensors to "detect" when there shouldn't be anything. This pattern can be "deduced" and thus used to apply across the image. You lose details because some of those fine details match how the noise pattern is formed. Thus, you can't really say that DFS is actually a NR algo. Cheers. hope you can catch that.