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Thread: Population Growth is good

  1. #21
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
    On the same note, you shouldn't be spending time and replying.

    You should be spending the energy and time to produce babies for Singapore too.
    I already have two wives. One in East Malaysia and one in West Malaysia but none in Singapore.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by BBTM View Post
    Even we got enough housing, does we having enough space for leisure and other stuffs?
    Go to Malaysia for leisure and other stuffs by super high speed trains.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    A professor in NTU has ambitions just like anyone else.
    He hopes to rise in the university hierarchy. There are things one has to do to stand out, be noticed and get ahead.

    Likewise, we should not expect a North Korean university professor to speak out against North Korea's race to build a nuclear weapon.

    When an organism is living within an ecosystem, it has to do certain things in order to survive within that ecosystem.
    Last edited by ricohflex; 2nd March 2013 at 10:34 PM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by Sion View Post
    I already have two wives. One in East Malaysia and one in West Malaysia but none in Singapore.
    I thought you kept mistress in SG
    I eats, shoots & leaves

  5. #25

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    A professor in NTU has ambitions just like anyone else.
    He hopes to rise in the university hierarchy. There are things one has to do to stand out, be noticed and get ahead.

    Likewise, we should not expect a North Korean university professor to speak out against North Korea's race to build a nuclear weapon.

    When an organism is living within an ecosystem, it has to do certain things in order to survive within that ecosystem.
    This is a well written article that explain the "MYTH" that population growth is good for SG

    For small country like SG, population growth is harmful.

    Economics myths in the great population debate - Yahoo! News Singapore
    Last edited by Yutaka Go; 2nd March 2013 at 11:27 PM.
    I eats, shoots & leaves

  6. #26

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    This is a well written article that explain the "MYTH" that population growth is good for SG

    For small country like SG, population growth is harmful.

    Economics myths in the great population debate - Yahoo! News Singapore
    Just by reading it you can see this article is written by an armchair economist..
    In theory it may be sound, but in practice things are not that simple
    If he were to be policymaker.. I bet he'll sing a different song

  7. #27

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by hanzohattori View Post
    Just by reading it you can see this article is written by an armchair economist..
    In theory it may be sound, but in practice things are not that simple
    If he were to be policymaker.. I bet he'll sing a different song
    A policy maker technically is an "armchair economist". And the writers are members of the Economic Society of Singapore.

    Honestly, you have no bloody idea what you are talking about. The problem with the Singapore policy making establishment is that it is closeted and does not engage in vigorous public debate and is clearly suffering from a lack of imagination when they think "more of the same might work".

    How people can hope for a "Swiss standard of living" when the country's economy is not even close to a "Swiss standard" is beyond me. Yet more disconnects in the Singaporean mindset.
    Last edited by NazgulKing; 4th March 2013 at 03:04 PM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    .. we thought we are growing... sure we are growing but we are also getting older.. however by 2030 using the 1.23 factor, we do not have enough baby to replace our population. The govn is looking at 2030... and we are unable to substain our GDP growth of 5% or more. We are slowing down to 2 to 3%. It goes hand in hand, high GDP means high growth. We need people to substain the growth.

    example.. we can have more investment, create more jobs but we do not have the manpower to support them. We can built more road, more MRT, more HDB, more more more but no Singaporean wants to fill the gap so we use foreign workers and they come and go. Also we are getting more educated, there going to be more diploma holders and graduated and we need to create good paid job for them.. else one day our diploma or graduated will be sweeping the road if we cannot substain growth

  9. #29
    Member Bukitimah's Avatar
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    I don't know. If life expectancy will continue to increase, come 2030 we will need 9 million to support the projected 6.9 million for 2050. This is also to ensure we continue with 5% GDP annually?

    Singapore once was the manufacturing base for low end products. We moved on to high end products and finance. So, mass is not the only way out. Today there is a report on Finland with population of 5 million. Student to teacher ratio is less than 15. What is ours?

  10. #30

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    No. The problem in Singapore is our the technology level of our economy is not high enough to translate into any kind of productivity. Most First world nations are heavily involved in Research and Development on all levels from designing the product to designing the machines to making the product. It is OK to be in manufacturing if the manufacturing involves high end products such as high precision products which the Germans and the Japanese are well known for but we are no where close enough to do so. It is time for Singapore to go beyond the usual "use EDB to sell and attract foreign companies to come here to set up shop" only to have these companies pack up and leave eventually and nothing much is left behind. We need to find and focus on niche industries where we can excel. We cannot focus on Finance alone which is subjected to the vagaries of external economies, never mind that our competitors are far more aggressive than we are and I don't foresee any change to that.

    What we need is home grown domestic industries and for our government to wean itself of having to constantly favour foreigners and focus on developing local talent for ourselves and not for the sake of populating some factory set up by foreigners. That has worked for the last 4 decades but it is time to put an end to it. I just don't see the government getting out of the mindset however.

    If one wants an example of how one could grow an industry, let's take the Japanese optics industry. The Japanese started out from nothing, but they didn't just start out from nothing; they had German help. Germans were hired and brought in to teach the Japanese on the finer points of optics design. Eventually the Germans left but the Japanese were good enough to continue on their own. The rest is history.
    Last edited by NazgulKing; 4th March 2013 at 04:06 PM.

  11. #31
    Member Bukitimah's Avatar
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    Well said. So why after so many decades we have yet to achieve this? In the 50, You will never buy a Japanese product but look for British or German because their were like China's product today.

    Aren't we 1st world now and commanding the highest paid in the world? So, we should not oversell and try to boost too much. As a small country, we will never be able to compete. But, we have done well and this government has did a great job with so much limitations.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by Bukitimah View Post
    Well said. So why after so many decades we have yet to achieve this? In the 50, You will never buy a Japanese product but look for British or German because their were like China's product today.

    Aren't we 1st world now and commanding the highest paid in the world? So, we should not oversell and try to boost too much. As a small country, we will never be able to compete. But, we have done well and this government has did a great job with so much limitations.
    The question that begs asking is this: Have we instead imposed too many limitations on ourselves? We allowed housing prices to rise so high, and that actually forms a limiting factor on innovation because people are less inclined to take risks when they have to take a 20-40 year loan.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by NazgulKing View Post
    A policy maker technically is an "armchair economist". And the writers are members of the Economic Society of Singapore.
    Except the writers have never tried to implement their 'suggestions'. Its like a newly graduated straight-As student try to teach a working professional in the field.
    I think everyone already know what the problem is, even the government (I doubt they are THAT stupid). The question is how to solve it and how to implement it well.
    Like I said, just put those economists in the government, and we'll see how they fare.

    Quote Originally Posted by NazgulKing View Post
    Honestly, you have no bloody idea what you are talking about. The problem with the Singapore policy making establishment is that it is closeted and does not engage in vigorous public debate and is clearly suffering from a lack of imagination when they think "more of the same might work".

    How people can hope for a "Swiss standard of living" when the country's economy is not even close to a "Swiss standard" is beyond me. Yet more disconnects in the Singaporean mindset.
    GCT was too arrogant to say that. Switzerland have more land than Singapore. And at the height of Swiss francs, even the Swiss buy their groceries from neighboring Germany and France. Buyer and store owners suffer alike.
    I think the main problem is property prices, which translates to higher cost for almost everything else. To be honest, given all else being equal, even innovation and productivity will go to wherever price is cheaper.
    Moreover, we can't realistically expect everyone to be researcher. Some want to be musicians, or a chef.. etc.. we are not robots.

    Now.. if only the government can deflate the property prices without sparking outrage.. or economic catastrophy
    And the other thing is, every economy will go through boom and bust... if it hasn't... well.....

  14. #34

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by hanzohattori View Post
    Except the writers have never tried to implement their 'suggestions'. Its like a newly graduated straight-As student try to teach a working professional in the field.
    I think everyone already know what the problem is, even the government (I doubt they are THAT stupid). The question is how to solve it and how to implement it well.
    Like I said, just put those economists in the government, and we'll see how they fare.
    Whether the government views it as a problem or is complicit with the problem is a different matter. I suspect they are too drunk/dependent on high property prices which translate to taxes and thus they are reluctant to "do the right thing".

    As for these "economists", let's be frank, the government is too stuck up anyway to pay heed.

    GCT was too arrogant to say that. Switzerland have more land than Singapore. And at the height of Swiss francs, even the Swiss buy their groceries from neighboring Germany and France. Buyer and store owners suffer alike.
    I think it's not a question of land. The Swiss have a fairly advanced pharmaceuticals industry making and designing drugs, and also a high precision industry (which you would expect of the land of luxury watch pieces). We on the other hand only manufacture drugs, don't really design drugs (do we even have the budget to spend on a multi-billion dollar drug?), at most take money from companies to do research, and then they take the research to make money for themselves, and we don't do much else.

    I think the main problem is property prices, which translates to higher cost for almost everything else. To be honest, given all else being equal, even innovation and productivity will go to wherever price is cheaper.
    Moreover, we can't realistically expect everyone to be researcher. Some want to be musicians, or a chef.. etc.. we are not robots.
    I am trained to be a researcher, with hopes of doing a PhD, and I tell you there are nearly no jobs available for researchers, and even if there are any now, they are temporary postdoctoral positions. The economy here is too damn backward to realistically even offer researchers any kind of jobs beyond a few.


    Now.. if only the government can deflate the property prices without sparking outrage.. or economic catastrophy
    And the other thing is, every economy will go through boom and bust... if it hasn't... well.....
    As I said earlier, I suspect the government wants the sustained bubble to stay... for reasons I suspect more personal than anything.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    If I recall correctly, ex-MM had firmly stated that SG can only cope with 5.5M max. This was reported in detail in newspapers.

    http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/ips/docs/m...ion_020208.pdf
    Last edited by ricohflex; 4th March 2013 at 11:24 PM.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    MAY I remind all that those of you who are anti-6.9mil to please also do accord the proper respect to opinions by those that are in favor of 6.9mil or higher

    Argue and debate the points without getting personal, political or racist ..... direct or INDIRECT

    thank you
    Last edited by ed9119; 5th March 2013 at 11:45 AM.
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  17. #37
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NazgulKing

    Whether the government views it as a problem or is complicit with the problem is a different matter. I suspect they are too drunk/dependent on high property prices which translate to taxes and thus they are reluctant to "do the right thing".

    .
    I do think this has nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with the fact that pushing prices down in any aggressive way will result in people's worth being diminished significantly. Just think about it, if you just bought a property for a million and it became 500k overnight, how would you feel?

  18. #38
    Senior Member oceanpriest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by BBTM View Post
    Even we got enough housing, does we having enough space for leisure and other stuffs?
    enough housing like this?



    Cage-dwellers show dark side of HK boom | TODAYonline

  19. #39

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    I do think this has nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with the fact that pushing prices down in any aggressive way will result in people's worth being diminished significantly. Just think about it, if you just bought a property for a million and it became 500k overnight, how would you feel?
    If it allows your kids to be able to buy a house without sinking in debt, why not? Or would you like your kids to be saddled with a 50-60 year loan, or heaven forbid a 100 year one, in the future? Are we destroying our future by saddling the young with immerse debt?

    There is a very big difference between "self worth" that is a result of natural inflation, and "self worth" that is a result of a property bubble. As it is, the question that begs asking is whether there is a bubble or not, and by what metric are we saying there is a bubble or there is no bubble at all? And if there is a bubble, why are we sustaining it? The last time the bubble burst was 1997. Now the price of housing has far exceeded that of 1997 by several times in some cases especially private property, under two times for the case of low end private apartments and HDB. Is it a bubble or not now?

    The government derives significant revenue from housing. I do not know if anyone factors in HDB revenue to the mix, but there should be no doubt that the government may well make a tidy profit selling houses to the people in addition to property taxes.
    Last edited by NazgulKing; 5th March 2013 at 01:56 PM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Population Growth is good

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    This is a well written article that explain the "MYTH" that population growth is good for SG

    For small country like SG, population growth is harmful.

    Economics myths in the great population debate - Yahoo! News Singapore
    ..when a country grows.. quality manpoer is needed..

    ..a country cannot grow without men.. and men diminish.. and who is going to fill the gap? Foreigners?
    Last edited by Yappy; 6th March 2013 at 07:08 AM.

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