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Thread: fz5 vd DLSR

  1. #1

    Default fz5 vd DLSR

    Hi people,

    I am a newbie to photography and am looking for a new camera to take indoor shots I am wondering how the fz5 will stack up with a DSLR with a 50mm f1.8 lens.

    Lets say if I want to shoot in low light. For the DSLR I can probably use ISO800 with f1.8 but the panasonic fz5 is ISO100 with f2.8. So how much slower must the shutter speed be for the fz5 to achieve similar lighting? can the OIS achieve that for me?

    I am thinking of taking people (not candid). I assume my subject should be able to hold still easily for the shutter speed right? or will that be another limiting factor.

    or in newbie terms, how close can the FZ5 get to a DSLR with 50mm f1.8lens.
    Last edited by wind30; 26th March 2005 at 07:43 PM.

  2. #2
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    I am surprise you are comparing FZ5 with dslr! Panasonic would be very happy if FZ5 is comparable. FZ5 doesn't even have manual focus... .

    So far only one owner of FZ5 here. So can't tell how good it is yet......

    I would say, FZ5 is more towards pro family cam.

    Perhaps other Lumixers share a different thought. Let's hear from them!

  3. #3

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    how about fz20 vs DLSR then? I am sure there are plenty of FZ20 users here

    I don't know if I want to spend the extra cash on something which I may not know how to use.

    Reviews say that the OIS can let you use shutter speeds 3-4 stops slower. So that will technically cancel out the difference in ISO (100 vs 800, 3 stops?). So the f1.8 aperture is roughly 1.x stops faster. So basically, the fz20 is 1.x stops slower than the DSLR with 50mm f1.8 lens. which is not too bad considering I have 12x zoom.

    so what am I missing in my simplicitic arguement? of course if the subjects move I am screwed... I will be taking mainly posed shots (travel shots) so will taht be a problem?

  4. #4
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by wind30
    how about fz20 vs DLSR then? I am sure there are plenty of FZ20 users here

    I don't know if I want to spend the extra cash on something which I may not know how to use.

    Reviews say that the OIS can let you use shutter speeds 3-4 stops slower. So that will technically cancel out the difference in ISO (100 vs 800, 3 stops?). So the f1.8 aperture is roughly 1.x stops faster. So basically, the fz20 is 1.x stops slower than the DSLR with 50mm f1.8 lens. which is not too bad considering I have 12x zoom.

    so what am I missing in my simplicitic arguement? of course if the subjects move I am screwed... I will be taking mainly posed shots (travel shots) so will taht be a problem?

    Assuming ISO 100 is constant, f/2.8 at 1/100s is equivalent to f/1.4 at 1/25s. ISO 800 is constant, f/1.4 at 1/100s is equivalent to f/2.8 at 1/400s.

    So with OIS, say it allows slower by 3-stop, the FZ20 ISO100 f/2.8 at 1/100s is equivalent to ISO800 f/1.4 at 1/100s. I would say FZ20 lens is better than the 50mm f/1.8 lens.

    Moreover, 3-stop slower is an estimation. It could be slower by 4-stop.

    Correct me if I calculated wrongly.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by wind30
    how about fz20 vs DLSR then? I am sure there are plenty of FZ20 users here

    I don't know if I want to spend the extra cash on something which I may not know how to use.

    Reviews say that the OIS can let you use shutter speeds 3-4 stops slower. So that will technically cancel out the difference in ISO (100 vs 800, 3 stops?). So the f1.8 aperture is roughly 1.x stops faster. So basically, the fz20 is 1.x stops slower than the DSLR with 50mm f1.8 lens. which is not too bad considering I have 12x zoom.

    so what am I missing in my simplicitic arguement? of course if the subjects move I am screwed... I will be taking mainly posed shots (travel shots) so will taht be a problem?
    Dear wind30, please do not compare a prosumer camera with a DSLR, just like comparing photographer to photographer. A prosumer in the right hands gives better results than a dum dum with DSLR.

    From your previous posts, it seems that you are already rather convinced of the prowess of the FZ5, so why post such a question out here in Panasonic forum some more... everyone sure tell you good, buy buy buy!
    RH

  6. #6

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    what u are asking is one thing, other things to consider is handling and responsiveness, and the fact that dslrs can capture a larger dynamic range.

  7. #7
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    correct me if i am wrong, but f2.8 on a ccd size 1/2.5" is not the same meaning as f2.8 on a DSLR ccd size of 16x24mm. with point and shoot's ccd and small lens that close together, its f2.8 is likely closer to f5.6 on a DSLR. It is a common misconception.

  8. #8

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    the reason I am buying a new camera is my old camera cannot take good shoots in less than ideal lighting. I know the photographer very impt but the criteria I am using is independent of photographer. If you give a good photographer my nikon 885 at low light condition, he is not going to be able to take a nice photo of me without flash.

    What I am trying to get is the capability (ie prerequisite) to take good photos at low light. The rest can train later.

    I am thinking how big a gap is there between the FZ20 and DSLR.

    Is it really true that the f2.8 in FZ20 means a f5.6 in DLSR? Then the gap between the DSLR and FZ20 is wider than I thought.

    lifeworld,
    I thought the DSLR with ISO800 is already faster by 3 stops compared to ISO100 of the FZ20?

  9. #9
    Senior Member josho's Avatar
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    Perhaps u can join us for the Lumix outing and get some idea from the FZ owners and compare. It will be easier for you to understand the low light situation.


  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by wind30
    the reason I am buying a new camera is my old camera cannot take good shoots in less than ideal lighting. I know the photographer very impt but the criteria I am using is independent of photographer. If you give a good photographer my nikon 885 at low light condition, he is not going to be able to take a nice photo of me without flash.

    What I am trying to get is the capability (ie prerequisite) to take good photos at low light. The rest can train later.

    I am thinking how big a gap is there between the FZ20 and DSLR.

    Is it really true that the f2.8 in FZ20 means a f5.6 in DLSR? Then the gap between the DSLR and FZ20 is wider than I thought.

    lifeworld,
    I thought the DSLR with ISO800 is already faster by 3 stops compared to ISO100 of the FZ20?

    If you want to take good low light photos, use creative flash arrangements.
    Any camera can do it, even with built in flash, and a couple of slave flash.
    RH

  11. #11

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    From commercial point of view, the comparison does not seem fair enough at all.

    For any prosumer camera, its purpose is its portability and economical in price.

    For any DSLR, lenses are modular, however, the investment is certainly huge.

    Thus, it all depends on what do you want, and how much are you willing to achieve.

    Last but not least, a camera is just a tool to any camera man or photographer, like rhair said, you can suppliment a normal camera with accessories.

    We've seen people using normal point and shoot camera to mount a tele-scopic lens (which the lens easily cost thousahds of dollars).

    We've also seen people using slave flash as a suppliment to the internal built-in flash for point and shoot camera, which the camera has no hot shoe at all.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wind30
    lifeworld,
    I thought the DSLR with ISO800 is already faster by 3 stops compared to ISO100 of the FZ20?
    In dslr, ISO800 is 3-stop more light sensitivity than ISO100. With OIS, FZ20's ISO 100 allows equivalent of 3-stop more light sensitivity as ISO 800(equivalent of prosumer camera).

    I think it's not right to compare prosumer cam with dslr. Price alone is already a big gap!

  13. #13

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    If I may,

    Actually OIS does not give you better light sensitivity at all. It actually allows you to take photos at slower shutter speeds with less camera shake. You may be getting clear sharp photos at low shutter speeds (eg. 1/10sec), but if your subject is moving, you will get a blur subject.

    This is not the same as dslr at higher ISO capability. Assuming both dslr and prosumer cameras have similar lens, eg both at f2.8 zoomed to 50mm, shooting at higher ISO is truly higher light sensitivity - ie at ISO 800 you will be able to shoot at a higher shutter speed than FZ20 at ISO 400. Higher shutter speed helps to freeze motion, thus u will be getting less motion blur in your shot, compared to FZ20. Furthermore, dslr at high ISO has significantly less noise compared to prosumer cameras at equivalent ISO, eg d70 at iso 400 has almost no noise, while prosumer cam at ISO 400 has lots and lots of noise. This is due to the larger ccd/cmos that dslr have.

    Just my S$0.02

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    Quote Originally Posted by wind30
    Hi people,

    I am a newbie to photography and am looking for a new camera to take indoor shots I am wondering how the fz5 will stack up with a DSLR with a 50mm f1.8 lens.

    Lets say if I want to shoot in low light. For the DSLR I can probably use ISO800 with f1.8 but the panasonic fz5 is ISO100 with f2.8. So how much slower must the shutter speed be for the fz5 to achieve similar lighting? can the OIS achieve that for me?

    I am thinking of taking people (not candid). I assume my subject should be able to hold still easily for the shutter speed right? or will that be another limiting factor.

    or in newbie terms, how close can the FZ5 get to a DSLR with 50mm f1.8lens.

    F1.8 to F2.8 is slightly more than 1-stop. ISO 800 to ISO 100 is about 3 stops. So the shutter speed @ ISO800-F1.8 will be approx. 4x faster than ISO100-F2.8.
    There will be slight variations since the sensors and lens are different though.

    The other factor you have to consider is that at 50mm (35mm equivalent), the aperture of the FZ-5 may not be 2.8.
    Also, M.O.I.S. may allow you to handhold shots to very slow shutter speeds but movement of the subject will cause blurring.. If you're taking shots of still objects, it's not an issue.. I've handheld 1/3.2s with OIS before.

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    Moderator John Teoh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeWorld
    Assuming ISO 100 is constant, f/2.8 at 1/100s is equivalent to f/1.4 at 1/25s. ISO 800 is constant, f/1.4 at 1/100s is equivalent to f/2.8 at 1/400s.

    So with OIS, say it allows slower by 3-stop, the FZ20 ISO100 f/2.8 at 1/100s is equivalent to ISO800 f/1.4 at 1/100s. I would say FZ20 lens is better than the 50mm f/1.8 lens.

    Moreover, 3-stop slower is an estimation. It could be slower by 4-stop.

    Correct me if I calculated wrongly.
    Er... Ivan, I think not quite correct.

    Smaller f is equal to bigger apperture (the opening of the lens in common term). The bigger the apperture, the more light coming in. More light coming in, faster shutter speed. Likewise, bigger f = smaller apperture = less light come in = slower speed. So to make it easy to remember:

    Small f, big opening, more light, fast speed
    Big F, small opening, less light, slow speed

    In the case where ISO is concern, the higher the ISO number, the more sensitive it is. The more sensitive it is, the faster shutter speed.

    So in low light condition, you will have to use the smallest F stop and highest ISO number in the camera so that you can have a faster shutter speed.

    Cheers
    John

  16. #16
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    To solve all your questions:

    1. It does not matter whether it is Aperture 2.8 in a Prosumer like FZ series or 35mm SLR. As long as it is Aperture 2.8 and and given the rated ISO (say 100), you will get the same shutter speed for the same exposure value whether in a PnS, Prosumer, SLR, Medium Format or Large Format.

    2. OIS, VR, IS, AS or whatever stabiliser technology will not help freeze the image like a faster shutter speed, higher ISO or bigger aperture can. It is basically, like what Konica Minolta's Anti-Shake (AS) said, Anti your Shake

    3. From my personal experience, a normal lighted HDB room with incoming sunlight on a normal day afternoon, you will get about 1/60s with a ISO 400 on a Aperture 2.0 lens (my previous 100/2.0 USM from Canon). I would not go slower than 1/30s to freeze children, so technically you will get about 1/15s with a Aperture 2.8 FZ5 on ISO 200 (still usable) which will not freeze the action.

    4. You cannot compare a DSLR with 50/1.8 and the FZ5 with 2.8 from 36-432mm (think the end is at Aperture 3.5~~). Moreover, to use the 50/1.8 is too soft wide open. It is good only at 2.8 upwards, much better at 4.0 and sharpest at 5.6 upwards. You will not only get the 50/1.8 to use on your DSLR only? (OK I am all talking about Canon stuff).

    5. The only difference you can talk of an Aperture 2.8 on a SLR and 2.8 on a Prosumer is the Depth of Field. What is it? I do not want to explain, go search the forums and www.google.com for more information. It will not kill you to open IE/FireFox, type in the URL www.google.com and in the search box "what is depth of field".

    6. Get a SLR and a 28-70/2.8 and shoot indoor with a flash (you will still need no matter how). Or else you are going to go the Prime route, 24/1.4, 28/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, 85/1.8, 100/2.0, 135/2.0 etc etc etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefox
    I've handheld 1/3.2s with OIS before.

    I handheld 1.5s without any OIS, IS, VR, AS nothing. Sometimes not only technic, but also luck (as in my case here :P)


    Oh yes, you want a PnS try the FujiFilm F10, pretty good low light (goes to ISO 1600) but you will lose details a bit (you post process with Neat Image etc also lose details so no difference). Still FujiFilm produce the best sensors and films as compared to Kodak and others.
    Last edited by theITguy; 27th March 2005 at 01:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Teoh
    Er... Ivan, I think not quite correct.

    Smaller f is equal to bigger apperture (the opening of the lens in common term). The bigger the apperture, the more light coming in. More light coming in, faster shutter speed. Likewise, bigger f = smaller apperture = less light come in = slower speed. So to make it easy to remember:

    Small f, big opening, more light, fast speed
    Big F, small opening, less light, slow speed

    In the case where ISO is concern, the higher the ISO number, the more sensitive it is. The more sensitive it is, the faster shutter speed.

    So in low light condition, you will have to use the smallest F stop and highest ISO number in the camera so that you can have a faster shutter speed.

    Cheers
    John
    Thanks John, thank you.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wind30
    the reason I am buying a new camera is my old camera cannot take good shoots in less than ideal lighting. I know the photographer very impt but the criteria I am using is independent of photographer. If you give a good photographer my nikon 885 at low light condition, he is not going to be able to take a nice photo of me without flash.

    What I am trying to get is the capability (ie prerequisite) to take good photos at low light. The rest can train later.
    You may want to post some photo and indicate why you are not happy with your photos ? Out of focus ? Blur ? Not sharp ?

    If your subject is stationary, try taking with a tripod and trigger the camera with your camera timer.

    Not sure if you have any knowledge about BASIC photography and how much you truly understand them, don't be offended. Once you past the point of using AUTO mode and beginning to have some expectation of the photo you took, it's time to learn more about photography. Need to know what f-stop, shutter speed, ISO, and how these are all inter-related to each other and different combination gives different result in a creative sense. Once you do fully understand all of these basic photography, this will provide you with ways to fully understand why your photo turn out the way it turn out, and you will then be able to make a technical correction on how to make your photo better.

    Flash is another animal by itself....it's good to get the foundation before venturing into this. These are not all, there are lot's of other things to learn in photography.

    Following is just a general statements and not target at you, based on questions I have seen in this and other forums......[flame away if you want]
    It's good there is SO MUCH interest in PHOTOGRAPHY. The SAD thing is, there so little self efford to learn more about BASIC PHOTOGRAPHY. CS forumers can provide some answer and guidelines to improve on your photo, but if the foundation is not there, you won't fully understand why those pointers works.

  20. #20

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    Perhaps Josho offer to review the cam in PLUG outing is one great way to try out the what it can/cannot do .

    Another is to see other's sample FZ10/20 shots, eg:
    http://www.pbase.com/twg/europe_by_p..._fz10&page=all

    personally, shooting in low light via the EVF or LCD for FZ10/20 is like aiming in total darkness, FZ20 is slightly better with the AF assist lamp. Need to shoot abt 2 shots 2 get it right.
    If only, FZ uses optical view finder like that of DSLR, if only...

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