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Thread: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

  1. #21
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milez View Post

    Not sure if the PRC told you that all communist party employee (aka Chinese civil servant) are given an apartment (or sold to them at highly subsidized rate). Those who work in private sector are the ones who gets nothing and compete in open market.

    Back to Singapore public housing. I do agree that national development ministry should seriously consider pricing their HDB flat especially for first time buyers, more generously. It's after all, government subsidized flat. The additional stamp duty (buyers or sellers) collected in 2012 from their cooling measures amounting to almost $2b should be used back to help those who qualify for HDB housing (within the income ceiling). Not pocket it. They budgeted surplus of $1+b, becomes surplus of $3.9b.... So there are more than enough surplus to spread the wealth in the country among Singaporean.

    Also, these generous pricing for first time buyers should only be given to those who are born and bred in Singapore, and those who served the NS. Not for the adopted citizens, who should join the queue with the second time buyers. Unless they served NS.
    There must be some distinction.
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    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by milez View Post
    Not sure if the PRC told you that all communist party employee (aka Chinese civil servant) are given an apartment (or sold to them at highly subsidized rate). Those who work in private sector are the ones who gets nothing and compete in open market.

    Back to Singapore public housing. I do agree that national development ministry should seriously consider pricing their HDB flat especially for first time buyers, more generously. It's after all, government subsidized flat. The additional stamp duty (buyers or sellers) collected in 2012 from their cooling measures amounting to almost $2b should be used back to help those who qualify for HDB housing (within the income ceiling). Not pocket it. They budgeted surplus of $1+b, becomes surplus of $3.9b.... So there are more than enough surplus to spread the wealth in the country among Singaporean.

    Also, these generous pricing for first time buyers should only be given to those who are born and bred in Singapore, and those who served the NS. Not for the adopted citizens, who should join the queue with the second time buyers. Unless they served NS.

    Bro I agree with you except for the last statement.... you're labeling citizen according to birth? you're creating a new whole set of problem here....
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by albertri

    Bro I agree with you except for the last statement.... you're labeling citizen according to birth? you're creating a new whole set of problem here....
    Maybe I should be more specific. Those who served NS deserved more concession when buying public housing. I think this fair to all male Singaporean who served the country.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by milez View Post
    Maybe I should be more specific. Those who served NS deserved more concession when buying public housing. I think this fair to all male Singaporean who served the country.
    native born and bred Singaporean males who have served NS do indeed deserve more.

    i applied around 6-7 times before i got my BTO.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by milez View Post
    Maybe I should be more specific. Those who served NS deserved more concession when buying public housing. I think this fair to all male Singaporean who served the country.
    that's much better then again the female side might complain also so to be fair let just say Singaporean 1st time HDB buyer specially low income earner should get some help from the govt. now 2nd time buyers no choice go queue and pay for expensive stamping fee and 3rd time should not be allowed anymore to buy bnew HDB they can buy from resale market or private. The reason for buying HDB is to get a house or a home sadly some of us treat HDB property like stocks they buy and sell.... So they are mainly the culprit why the HDB price is so high now and average Joe cant afford them anymore specially the resale prices.
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    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    native born and bred Singaporean males who have served NS do indeed deserve more.

    i applied around 6-7 times before i got my BTO.
    Bro lets do this way what if you migrated to (for example) Canada and you turn grey there and when the time you claim for your pension and medical the govt say sorry you're not true blue Canadian you can only get partial what will you feel? Does this mean non born and raised Singapore is 2nd class and not get the same benefit as Born and bred here? To me that's skewed logic.. I'll rather be PR then than convert if I where in their shoes..What good me being Singaporean if I am a 2nd class anyways if limited perks
    Last edited by albertri; 3rd March 2013 at 10:48 PM.
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    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    Bro lets do this way what if you migrated to (for example) Canada and you turn grey there and when the time you claim for your pension and medical the govt say sorry you're not true blue Canadian you can only get partial what will you feel? Does this mean non born and raised Singapore is 2nd class and not get the same benefit as Born and bred here? To me that's skewed logic.. I'll rather be PR then than convert if I where in their shoes..What good me being Singaporean if I am a 2nd class anyways if limited perks
    as a native born and bred Singaporean... there is this thing known as conscription.
    i dun think that canada has it. regardless, let's take a look.


    1). i'm not planning on moving anywhere at all becos my homeland, Singapore, is a very peaceful, tidy, clean, neat and all the good things there is, despite its many flaws.

    besides, my roots are here, so too my close friends. why should I move abroad and become, in your own words, '2nd class' elsewhere? why should I leave the land of my birth since I am so attached here?

    even if there's a war happening right here in Singapore, I will gladly lay down my life and fight for our independence and freedom.

    i've served through NS and i'm mentally prepared to put my life on the line in such a situation.




    2). born and bred Singapore males must serve 2 years of National Service plus some 10 years of ICT, not forgetting the many RTs in between. in short, we defend and protect the nation and i would think that we do deserve more if it comes to government housing rights.


    however, new citizens are definitely very much welcomed to share the burden of defending our nation if they serve National Service too.

    maybe their 2nd generation will serve?




    anyway, if you want to be a citizen of Singapore, no one's stopping you. we do welcome you if you can contribute to the nation's growth.

    no one is treating you as 2nd class or 3rd or whatever you call it.



    I would think that to be given more priority in getting government housing rights to local male who have served NS is a 'little incentive' so that in the grander scheme of things, we can create more babies for the country much faster! kekekekeke
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    hold on there ....new first generation citizens have served NS when they are of age .... just that the press and media highlight those cowardly blood-suckers that dont and go elsewhere ... which is good too
    Last edited by ed9119; 3rd March 2013 at 11:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    as a native born and bred Singaporean... there is this thing known as conscription.
    i dun think that canada has it. regardless, let's take a look.


    1). i'm not planning on moving anywhere at all becos my homeland, Singapore, is a very peaceful, tidy, clean, neat and all the good things there is, despite its many flaws.

    besides, my roots are here, so too my close friends. why should I move abroad and become, in your own words, '2nd class' elsewhere? why should I leave the land of my birth since I am so attached here?

    even if there's a war happening right here in Singapore, I will gladly lay down my life and fight for our independence and freedom.

    i've served through NS and i'm mentally prepared to put my life on the line in such a situation.




    2). born and bred Singapore males must serve 2 years of National Service plus some 10 years of ICT, not forgetting the many RTs in between. in short, we defend and protect the nation and i would think that we do deserve more if it comes to government housing rights.


    however, new citizens are definitely very much welcomed to share the burden of defending our nation if they serve National Service too.

    maybe their 2nd generation will serve?




    anyway, if you want to be a citizen of Singapore, no one's stopping you. we do welcome you if you can contribute to the nation's growth.

    no one is treating you as 2nd class or 3rd or whatever you call it.



    I would think that to be given more priority in getting government housing rights to local male who have served NS is a 'little incentive' so that in the grander scheme of things, we can create more babies for the country much faster! kekekekeke
    Bro I rest my case.... but pls read what you wrote and careful what you write being a citizen is not only measured if youre born here or not. There a lot more into it... But if that's what you think wont argue anymore...
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Agree on this. What is this about fairness? Why are new imported male citizens exempt from NS, because they have more money & are elites? And which makes us whats called here as 2nd class citizen? Regardless of citizenship by birth, descent or registration (naturalization), shouldnt all have the same responsibilities & obligations? Incentives are good. From what I hear, supporters of the ruling party are accorded priority in application for flats

    Perhaps they should make it compulsory for new type of NS, mandatory for all male Singaporeans to produce at least 2 babies as part of "national defence"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    as a native born and bred Singaporean... there is this thing known as conscription.
    i dun think that canada has it. regardless, let's take a look.


    1). i'm not planning on moving anywhere at all becos my homeland, Singapore, is a very peaceful, tidy, clean, neat and all the good things there is, despite its many flaws.

    besides, my roots are here, so too my close friends. why should I move abroad and become, in your own words, '2nd class' elsewhere? why should I leave the land of my birth since I am so attached here?

    even if there's a war happening right here in Singapore, I will gladly lay down my life and fight for our independence and freedom.

    i've served through NS and i'm mentally prepared to put my life on the line in such a situation.


    2). born and bred Singapore males must serve 2 years of National Service plus some 10 years of ICT, not forgetting the many RTs in between. in short, we defend and protect the nation and i would think that we do deserve more if it comes to government housing rights.

    however, new citizens are definitely very much welcomed to share the burden of defending our nation if they serve National Service too.

    maybe their 2nd generation will serve?

    anyway, if you want to be a citizen of Singapore, no one's stopping you. we do welcome you if you can contribute to the nation's growth.

    no one is treating you as 2nd class or 3rd or whatever you call it.

    I would think that to be given more priority in getting government housing rights to local male who have served NS is a 'little incentive' so that in the grander scheme of things, we can create more babies for the country much faster! kekekekeke
    Last edited by s1221ljc; 4th March 2013 at 07:09 AM.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post

    Bro I rest my case.... but pls read what you wrote and careful what you write being a citizen is not only measured if youre born here or not. There a lot more into it... But if that's what you think wont argue anymore...
    Sorry, i dun think u will ever understand what National Service is all about, much less the 10yr cycle and the RTs.

    Maybe ur children will serve NS in the future and they can relate their experiences to u.

    By the way, u might be interested to find out more about our society as a whole and who r the real natives of Singapore.

    Cheers!
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    Agree on this. What is this about fairness? Why are new imported male citizens exempt from NS, because they have more money & are elites? And which makes us whats called here as 2nd class citizen? Regardless of citizenship by birth, descent or registration (naturalization), shouldnt all have the same responsibilities & obligations? Incentives are good. From what I hear, supporters of the ruling party are accorded priority in application for flats

    Perhaps they should make it compulsory for new type of NS, mandatory for all male Singaporeans to produce at least 2 babies as part of "national defence"
    Regarding new first generation converted citizens of age exempted to serve NS by the Defence ministry, i think it is the right decision. You dont want someone to plant a mole in the local armed forces, do you? Its basically national security.
    While there are foreign borned converted citizens holding office in the cabinet, i guess they are considered cleaned and loyal after being screened the ruling party's stringent process. And there are but only a few.
    To open the flood gates of similar able bodied male citizens (last count was about 20% of all local born citizens) to NS has serious national security issues. Hence the exemption. I think.

    Therefore, to be fair to locals who have served the country, and are still on call/standby to be recalled... i think they deserve a little more.
    Some say, what about female? well, the local female who wants to enjoy the perks of NS serving male can choose to marry them. Then, they will also enjoy the perks. Afterall, public housing is meant for family unit.
    Or, they can choose to serve NS. Full time regular dont count as they have already been amply rewarded with incentives and bonus.

    New citizens will still enjoy perks of the local, not dissimilar to the female local born non NS serving citizens. This is not to serve as categorizing the rights of the residence, but the highlight the importance of NS and honor/reward those who have sacrificed the prime years of their life serving the country.

    I would suggest giving the first round pick/ballot of first time buyers to a category of citizens in this manner,
    1st priority - total household income < $1500 per month.
    2nd priority - NS serving/served citizens with total household income < $3000 per month.
    3rd priority - NS serving/served citizens who qualified (within HDB income ceiling)
    4th priority - All other citizens who qualified within HDB income ceiling

    I know the new adopted citizens feel hard done by and might prefer to stay as PRs. But there is also distinction drawn between PRs and citizens on perks and duties. So i think overall on the grand scheme of things, its fair.

    Making male citizens compulsory to produce min 2 babies per household as national service, ... i think will be too similar to communism. I still believe in carrot rather than stick.
    Last edited by milez; 4th March 2013 at 08:19 AM.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Basically, give the local boys who served NS, greater priority when they ballot for new public housings.

    That's all.
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    Basically, give the local boys who served NS, greater priority when they ballot for new public housings.

    That's all.
    this I agree.... those who served NS should get something for their sacrifice regardless they are born/bred here or not as long they served NS they should get something.
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by s1221ljc View Post
    Why are new imported male citizens exempt from NS, because they have more money & are elites? And which makes us whats called here as 2nd class citizen?
    as they come of age, they are required to perform NS

    yes Support subsidized HDB for NS

    yes Support Produce-3-Babies or go Army for 3 years option for our young men
    Last edited by ed9119; 4th March 2013 at 11:47 AM.
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    ok, enough of NS talk. Let's not be too sensitive to opinions here. As someone mentioned, nothing is fair in this world. Even if the world is fair, someone somewhere will still think it is unfair. Let's get back to budget talk.

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    Again I am hearing about HDB and prices, even linking it to NS. Why make things so complicated? Build as many public housing units as required to house all the citizen and make them pay the actual cost.

    If they become richer, sell them back to the government at the same base cost. Go and buy a more expensive private property.

    If we have 2 million citizen and need 600,000 homes and 80% stay in HDB, we just need less than 500,000 flats for the citizen.

    The roof over the head is very important. I can understand the frustrations for those unable to secure a flat of their own. Of course, if you want a certain area only, then I am afraid you may have to be disappointed. Woodland or yisun isn't that far. Similarly woodland and jurong also ok. But jurong and changi is further.

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    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    To me if you ask me budget should be focus on

    1. Creating comprehensive medical and housing support for the less fortunate elderly.

    2. Promoting birth rate... How they do it I don't know but they should do far better than what they have and are doing now.

    3. Instead of giving money to the less fortunate or low income citizen provide them training or education enhancement program. Maybe provide scholarship? Etc. ..

    That's is for us able get less... Once we help these folks and give them much better fighting chance later on govt don't need to support them and the budget can go to other needs of the country.

    I still believe you teach a man how to fish he will survive rather than giving him money.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    To me if you ask me budget should be focus on

    1. Creating comprehensive medical and housing support for the less fortunate elderly.

    2. Promoting birth rate... How they do it I don't know but they should do far better than what they have and are doing now.

    3. Instead of giving money to the less fortunate or low income citizen provide them training or education enhancement program. Maybe provide scholarship? Etc. ..

    That's is for us able get less... Once we help these folks and give them much better fighting chance later on govt don't need to support them and the budget can go to other needs of the country.

    I still believe you teach a man how to fish he will survive rather than giving him money.
    1. Creating comprehensive medical and housing support for the less fortunate elderly.
    --> This is already underway. Look out for more hospitals coming

    2. Promoting birth rate... How they do it I don't know but they should do far better than what they have and are doing now.
    --> Easier said then done. This is a problem of highly urbanized city/society. Of course things would improve if the environment is more conducive. But having said that, locally born and bred Singaporean should find this easier because there is family support. Newly added citizens will have more problem because most likely, one of both the couples' parents are residing in foreign land, thus making them harder to manage without resorting to domestic helper and/or infant care facilities. Which the gov should have done more in this sector. MCYS' is addressing the issue, but a little too slow

    3. Instead of giving money to the less fortunate or low income citizen provide them training or education enhancement program. Maybe provide scholarship? Etc. ..
    --> I think the gov IS providing/encouraging training. But you have to look at the root of the problem. Why is the income low? What is the industry they are working in which has low income? Re-training/education is not the immediate solution. Would you think about going for training if you dont have enough to feed yourself or your family? You'd be taking up 2-3 jobs to make ends meet. Where's the time for training? The long term solution is of course re-training, education. But its really up to the individual... if he/she is motivated to help himself. Teaching a man how to fish, but asking him to fish in a fishless reservoir is not a solution either.
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  20. #40

    Default Re: Let's talk about ..... Budget for "a better Singapore"

    Quote Originally Posted by milez View Post
    1. Creating comprehensive medical and housing support for the less fortunate elderly.
    --> This is already underway. Look out for more hospitals coming

    2. Promoting birth rate... How they do it I don't know but they should do far better than what they have and are doing now.
    --> Easier said then done. This is a problem of highly urbanized city/society. Of course things would improve if the environment is more conducive. But having said that, locally born and bred Singaporean should find this easier because there is family support. Newly added citizens will have more problem because most likely, one of both the couples' parents are residing in foreign land, thus making them harder to manage without resorting to domestic helper and/or infant care facilities. Which the gov should have done more in this sector. MCYS' is addressing the issue, but a little too slow

    3. Instead of giving money to the less fortunate or low income citizen provide them training or education enhancement program. Maybe provide scholarship? Etc. ..
    --> I think the gov IS providing/encouraging training. But you have to look at the root of the problem. Why is the income low? What is the industry they are working in which has low income? Re-training/education is not the immediate solution. Would you think about going for training if you dont have enough to feed yourself or your family? You'd be taking up 2-3 jobs to make ends meet. Where's the time for training? The long term solution is of course re-training, education. But its really up to the individual... if he/she is motivated to help himself. Teaching a man how to fish, but asking him to fish in a fishless reservoir is not a solution either.
    On issue #3:
    CNA interviewed this low-wage worker in his 40s who is a delivery man for a noodle making company. He has 2 or 3 young kids, 1 with mental disability.
    he is getting some govt assistance but it's barely enough esp when the kid with mental disability needs constant care - his wife cannot work to supplement his income.

    when the reporter asked him about retraining - he shoot back - retrain to be better at driving? better at delivering noodles?
    at his age and low level of education ("my angmo no good" he says in hokkien) he doubts he can learn a new skill.

    retraining is, as milez said above a good idea, but there are limitations.

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