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Thread: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

  1. #61
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    When employers said they cannot find Engineers.
    What they meant was they cannot find experienced engineers willing to accept the peanut pay.
    Companies don't want to spent money and time to train engineers because they feel that the engineers will go to another company for higher pay.
    That means the fresh graduates have little chances of finding a job because they are not qualify.
    The starting pay for fresh graduates is also too low for Singapore rising cost of living.

    Foreign companies setting up operation is trying to save cost - labor, taxes and others.
    They are not going to pay locals the same wages as the Engineers in their home countries.

    That means SG is a 1st world but the workers can only get 3rd world pay.

    The only way these foreign companies will stay in SG is when they can 3rd world workers willing to accept 3rd world wages.


    Sorry bor I disagree with you... dont try to compare e.g. US to Singapore or Europe to Singapore salary wise yes there's a gap but that doesn't mean they earn more than what an engineers here in Singapore? Yes salary is higher if you compare only salary there's a lot of factors that was left out. e.g. The countrie's taxation rate? Cost of Living etc etc.... That's why for MNC like my company if I will be relocated e.g. in Indodesia I will get a pay cut... if I move to Japan or let say Hong Kong I will get a raise or bump why? coz of the factors I've mentioned... So in my company my level in other countries wont have similar salary rate.... because of those factors.

    Let me ask you bro how much tax you paying every year after all the deductions are removed? I bet FT and FW pays more than the average Singaporean does :-). Yes Singapore is 1st world country but that does mean they pay sucks mah... so pls dont do such sweeping statement....
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  2. #62
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    When employers said they cannot find Engineers.
    What they meant was they cannot find experienced engineers willing to accept the peanut pay.
    Companies don't want to spent money and time to train engineers because they feel that the engineers will go to another company for higher pay.
    There you got the structural distortion in the labour market. Due to pressure on wages it is not possible for locals to accept these jobs and feed their families. And companies do not have a culture of retaining and appreciating staff with knowledge and experience. Everybody is replaceable, the all-damaging American philosophy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    Foreign companies setting up operation is trying to save cost - labor, taxes and others.
    They are not going to pay locals the same wages as the Engineers in their home countries.
    That means SG is a 1st world but the workers can only get 3rd world pay.
    Why would any company pay European wages here in Singapore? All what is required is a decent local salary that considers skills, expertise, job scope and other factors. As long as a higher salary is justified with higher skills and value for the company there's nothing wrong. It gets wrong if high skills are paid lousy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    The only way these foreign companies will stay in SG is when they can 3rd world workers willing to accept 3rd world wages.
    Too simplified. There are many other factors that make a company stay or go. On the other hand, Singapore has lost its reputation as cheap country in SE Asia. It has become a hub for certain industries to access the region. As this, the costs for setting up a business here will be checked more thoroughly. The times of expat packages 5 times the level of local wages is over.
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  3. #63
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    Let me ask you bro how much tax you paying every year after all the deductions are removed? I bet FT and FW pays more than the average Singaporean does :-). Yes Singapore is 1st world country but that does mean they pay sucks mah... so pls dont do such sweeping statement....
    As soon as a person works and draws salary in Singapore for more than 183 days the person is subject to standard tax rates like all locals. No difference here. But of course, since many foreigners are single, they cannot make any claims. On the other hand, those people working here without expat package will have to find a rented place to stay. Now let's compare the rental prices with the standard CPF contribution.
    When people look at European countries and see "40% tax rate" they are mostly mistaken. Income tax varies, is generally higher but is never that high for normal employees. What makes the rest are contributions to pension system (mandatory, similar to CPF), health insurance (mandatory in some countries), unemployment insurance (some countries) and others. All in all it can become more than 40% deductions. It helps to look into the details, and also into the price levels in each country.
    EOS

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    Sorry bor I disagree with you... dont try to compare e.g. US to Singapore or Europe to Singapore salary wise yes there's a gap but that doesn't mean they earn more than what an engineers here in Singapore? Yes salary is higher if you compare only salary there's a lot of factors that was left out. e.g. The countrie's taxation rate? Cost of Living etc etc.... That's why for MNC like my company if I will be relocated e.g. in Indodesia I will get a pay cut... if I move to Japan or let say Hong Kong I will get a raise or bump why? coz of the factors I've mentioned... So in my company my level in other countries wont have similar salary rate.... because of those factors.

    Let me ask you bro how much tax you paying every year after all the deductions are removed? I bet FT and FW pays more than the average Singaporean does :-). Yes Singapore is 1st world country but that does mean they pay sucks mah... so pls dont do such sweeping statement....
    Bro, yes and no to your analogy above. I guess there is no clear answer here as it depends on which countries we are benchmarking. Income tax may be high in some countries but cost of living not as high as Singapore. Singapore is among one of the world's most expensive cities to live in. Also it is different if you are living in the country for good from merely living and working for a short period of time before returning home.

    Oversea postings can also vary according to whether you are on expatriate, local or hybrid terms. Usually, the basic salary component should remain more or less what you are drawing in your native country. The fluctuating component is the overseas allowances which comprises of hardship allowance, accommodation, taxations, living expenses, etc. Even if you are posted to a third world country for work, you should still get an improved deal, eg due to a larger hardship allowance. Else most likely you will not want to make the move unless there are other reasons behind it.

    Also the income tax level for citizens, PR and foreigners who make a living in Singapore are the same.

    Let me ask this. For example, a Singaporean is hired for a role for $4k. Should a Malaysian, Chinese, Indian, Pinoy or Myanmar be paid the same $4k for equivalent role and job scope or less simply because he is a foreigner? Assuming qualification, attitude and passion is the same.
    Last edited by ManWearPants; 24th February 2013 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    Sorry bor I disagree with you... dont try to compare e.g. US to Singapore or Europe to Singapore salary wise yes there's a gap but that doesn't mean they earn more than what an engineers here in Singapore? Yes salary is higher if you compare only salary there's a lot of factors that was left out. e.g. The countrie's taxation rate? Cost of Living etc etc.... That's why for MNC like my company if I will be relocated e.g. in Indodesia I will get a pay cut... if I move to Japan or let say Hong Kong I will get a raise or bump why? coz of the factors I've mentioned... So in my company my level in other countries wont have similar salary rate.... because of those factors.

    Let me ask you bro how much tax you paying every year after all the deductions are removed? I bet FT and FW pays more than the average Singaporean does :-). Yes Singapore is 1st world country but that does mean they pay sucks mah... so pls dont do such sweeping statement....
    If the pay is good, they should be able to find the Engineer.

    Don't tell me that nobody went to interview if they offer $6000 per month for 3-5 years experience Engineer.

    Singaporean only reject low pay jobs.

    If nobody went for interview, the pay is too low.

    Just like clubsnap here, if some one offer $100 for a photographer to cover actual day wedding and nobody answer the requester. You don't need to guess why.
    Last edited by Yutaka Go; 24th February 2013 at 04:49 PM.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member UncleFai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go
    Singaporean only reject low pay jobs.
    Also, shift work and far away jobs.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    There you got the structural distortion in the labour market. Due to pressure on wages it is not possible for locals to accept these jobs and feed their families. And companies do not have a culture of retaining and appreciating staff with knowledge and experience. Everybody is replaceable, the all-damaging American philosophy.
    I agree.

    Why would any company pay European wages here in Singapore? All what is required is a decent local salary that considers skills, expertise, job scope and other factors. As long as a higher salary is justified with higher skills and value for the company there's nothing wrong. It gets wrong if high skills are paid lousy. .

    SG is one of the most expensive place to live.

    Too simplified. There are many other factors that make a company stay or go. On the other hand, Singapore has lost its reputation as cheap country in SE Asia. It has become a hub for certain industries to access the region. As this, the costs for setting up a business here will be checked more thoroughly. The times of expat packages 5 times the level of local wages is over.
    True.

    But I feel that companies shouldn't have problem finding a Singaporean Engineer if the price is right. There are many fresh graduates from local education institutes.
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  8. #68

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    Also, shift work and far away jobs.
    They reject shift work if nobody take cares of babies/children.

    The child care center don't open 24 hrs so for those working for 12 hrs shift.

    Who will take care of the babies and children ?

    Elderly parent may be sick and need care taker so they cannot take care of grand children.

    They also need to pick up children after work. If the office in Jurong and they live in Tampines.

    They cannot reach child care center by 7.00pm to pick up their kids if their shift end at 7.00pm.
    Last edited by Yutaka Go; 24th February 2013 at 05:00 PM.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    The recent hoo-ha made by the sakae sushi boss supported the fact that if the price is right, Singaporeans aplenty are willing to take on the job, regardless the hours n stature or lack of 'glam' associated.

    Singaporeans are mainly, still a hungry, ambitious and hardworking group.
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  10. #70

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    The recent hoo-ha made by the sakae sushi boss supported the fact that if the price is right, Singaporeans aplenty are willing to take on the job, regardless the hours n stature or lack of 'glam' associated.

    Singaporeans are mainly, still a hungry, ambitious and hardworking group.
    Yes.. later you can buy sushi at $5 apiece

  11. #71
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanzohattori View Post

    Yes.. later you can buy sushi at $5 apiece
    Well, maybe it is sprinkled with gold dust? Kekeke
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  12. #72

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    The recent hoo-ha made by the sakae sushi boss supported the fact that if the price is right, Singaporeans aplenty are willing to take on the job, regardless the hours n stature or lack of 'glam' associated.

    Singaporeans are mainly, still a hungry, ambitious and hardworking group.
    The "$3000" monthly salary include OT

    The basic pay is less than $3000.

    That means the pay is about the same as factory operators.
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  13. #73
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post

    The "$3000" monthly salary include OT

    The basic pay is less than $3000.

    That means the pay is about the same as factory operators.
    Still, a significant increase from 700 or 800.

    The crux of the matter is, sakae received overwhelming response as compared to prior the talkshow.

    If the co. Is willing to pay, there'll be aplenty of Singaporeans.

    But now, why shud most SMEs, MNCs hire us when there are plenty of cheaper alternatives even in PMET roles?

    Hmmm......
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  14. #74

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesecake View Post
    Still, a significant increase from 700 or 800.

    The crux of the matter is, sakae received overwhelming response as compared to prior the talkshow.

    If the co. Is willing to pay, there'll be aplenty of Singaporeans.

    But now, why shud most SMEs, MNCs hire us when there are plenty of cheaper alternatives even in PMET roles?

    Hmmm......
    yup. If there are cheaper alternatives, there is not motivation for companies to innovate or increase productivity. I think the SMEs should just stop whinning and start to think about how to cope with less workers (but more highly paid).

    As I said, you just need to look at Japan to see how the people there cope. I was really impressed by the fast food workers they have. In singapore, you see all the workers do things slowly, chit chat here and there, take breaks, etc. Over there, I see the lady working in KFC working very hard to clear the queue as fast as possible and once the queue is cleared and there is no customers, do they rest?? NO, I see them quickly go around wipe table, greet passerby, etc.

    I think our singapore's productivity can still go up by quite a few percent...

  15. #75

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by dniwkh View Post
    yup. If there are cheaper alternatives, there is not motivation for companies to innovate or increase productivity. I think the SMEs should just stop whinning and start to think about how to cope with less workers (but more highly paid).

    As I said, you just need to look at Japan to see how the people there cope. I was really impressed by the fast food workers they have. In singapore, you see all the workers do things slowly, chit chat here and there, take breaks, etc. Over there, I see the lady working in KFC working very hard to clear the queue as fast as possible and once the queue is cleared and there is no customers, do they rest?? NO, I see them quickly go around wipe table, greet passerby, etc.

    I think our singapore's productivity can still go up by quite a few percent...
    In Japan, the company take care of their employee if the employee take care of the company.
    It is mutual relationship.
    If the company treat the employee as a number, the employee will leave.

    I saw an article why people leave their company.
    Ironically, the number one reason is not the low wages but the manager.
    Poor management will create high turn over.
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  16. #76

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    We have senior level management personnel from parent HQ with appointments in Temasek Holdings coming to tell us that we have our jobs just only because we are paid "competitively" and yet ironically, we have local engineers leaving for rival shops in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan corporations who are aggressively offering a better remuneration package as the market expands rapidly.

    So I guess we should all not request for much and be grateful still that we even have a rice bowl.
    this institution is a blight upon our meritocratic society. but i digress.
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  17. #77

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutaka Go View Post
    They reject shift work if nobody take cares of babies/children.

    The child care center don't open 24 hrs so for those working for 12 hrs shift.

    Who will take care of the babies and children ?

    Elderly parent may be sick and need care taker so they cannot take care of grand children.

    They also need to pick up children after work. If the office in Jurong and they live in Tampines.

    They cannot reach child care center by 7.00pm to pick up their kids if their shift end at 7.00pm.

    They reject shift work if nobody take cares of babies/children. --- Malaysian can do shift work and still take care of babies/children


    The child care center don't open 24 hrs so for those working for 12 hrs shift.--- Do you think Malaysian child care center open for 24 hrs?

    Who will take care of the babies and children ? --- Ask the Malaysian doing your shift work.

    Elderly parent may be sick and need care taker so they cannot take care of grand children.--- Malaysians also have parents that are sick and need care.

    They also need to pick up children after work. If the office in Jurong and they live in Tampines. --- Many Malaysians work in factories in Jurong and have to travel three times the distance to Tampines and quite often face a 2 hrs jam at the Checkpoint.

    They cannot reach child care center by 7.00pm to pick up their kids if their shift end at 7.00pm.--- Many Malaysians I know count themselves lucky to see and talk to their children before they go to bed.


    Have Singaporeans really gone so soft?

  18. #78

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonlee View Post
    They reject shift work if nobody take cares of babies/children. --- Malaysian can do shift work and still take care of babies/children


    The child care center don't open 24 hrs so for those working for 12 hrs shift.--- Do you think Malaysian child care center open for 24 hrs?

    Who will take care of the babies and children ? --- Ask the Malaysian doing your shift work.

    Elderly parent may be sick and need care taker so they cannot take care of grand children.--- Malaysians also have parents that are sick and need care.

    They also need to pick up children after work. If the office in Jurong and they live in Tampines. --- Many Malaysians work in factories in Jurong and have to travel three times the distance to Tampines and quite often face a 2 hrs jam at the Checkpoint.

    They cannot reach child care center by 7.00pm to pick up their kids if their shift end at 7.00pm.--- Many Malaysians I know count themselves lucky to see and talk to their children before they go to bed.


    Have Singaporeans really gone so soft?
    My Malaysian friends left their children in Malaysia ( take care by grand parents )
    They visit their children every weekend.

    Can Singaporean put their children in Malaysia ?????

    Singaporean have not gone soft but their grand parents may not be healthy enough to take care of their grand children.
    Some Singaporean lost their parent (pass away) before they married.

    The infrastructure in SG is not design for people working in shift.

    Many of my Singaporean friends have no problem doing shift work if they are able to make proper arrangement to child care.
    Last edited by Yutaka Go; 24th February 2013 at 11:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Since I got a number of enquiries over my recent postings regarding aerospace engineering, speaking on behalf of all Licensed Aircraft Engineers (LAEs) here are just some advice...

    If you got a degree and love $$$. Tolong, Tolong please join the financial sector.

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  20. #80
    Senior Member Cheesecake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonlee View Post
    They reject shift work if nobody take cares of babies/children. --- Malaysian can do shift work and still take care of babies/children


    The child care center don't open 24 hrs so for those working for 12 hrs shift.--- Do you think Malaysian child care center open for 24 hrs?

    Who will take care of the babies and children ? --- Ask the Malaysian doing your shift work.

    Elderly parent may be sick and need care taker so they cannot take care of grand children.--- Malaysians also have parents that are sick and need care.

    They also need to pick up children after work. If the office in Jurong and they live in Tampines. --- Many Malaysians work in factories in Jurong and have to travel three times the distance to Tampines and quite often face a 2 hrs jam at the Checkpoint.

    They cannot reach child care center by 7.00pm to pick up their kids if their shift end at 7.00pm.--- Many Malaysians I know count themselves lucky to see and talk to their children before they go to bed.


    Have Singaporeans really gone so soft?
    if we are comparing Singaporeans working and living in Singapore as opposed to Malaysians working and living in Malaysia, then it is not a fair comparison.

    but if you're talking about Malaysians working in Singapore and living in Malaysia... then....

    1). Most Malaysians have a big family core. The grandparents, parents can and will share in the responsibility of looking after their great-grandchildren, grandchildren etc after the childcare centers have closed for the day.

    2). if they are here doing our shift work, I can only tell you that the fact that Sing dollar is strong and pay much better than back home, they do not have much of a choice if they are to provide a better living standard for their family and children. some sacrifices must be made.

    3). well, even our minister suggested that we can send our parents over to JB nursing homes when they are old, i guess the nursing homes are top notch.

    4). they do not have much of a choice and the fact that the pay is so much better than back home, they just have to do the travelling.

    5). same as 2 and 4.




    Singaporeans on a whole, have not gone soft.

    it is just that most of us are now much better educated and feels that they deserve to work in a 'normal' 9-5 office job.

    probably, there's a 'social issue' being attached to shift job? they cannot get to meet their friends, families and loved ones as often as they like.

    furthermore, there are many other job opportunities available to the locals and they will probably give shift jobs a miss in favour of other vocations/jobs.
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