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Thread: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    Why would Singaporeans not do cleaner jobs? Have you thought about the root cause?
    And why would Singaporeans not be able to do 'fancy research stuff'? Do you know that your government allows biological research here in Singapore which is banned (for a good reason) in European countries? Whether this is fancy or not is not the point ..
    Balance is a buzzword used by those sitting at the upper end.
    If you go to any of our unis or research centers, tell me how many are locals. Tell me how many are not new citizens.
    I can tell you, you won't find a whole lot of them. If you insist on locals only hiring policy, good luck getting anything done.
    It's not that there aren't any capable locals, it's just there's too few of them.

    For the bio research are u talking about stem-cell research? That was banned from federal support by GWBush in the States.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    I think the dissenting voices are saying that those jobs that Singaporeans can and would like to do, they should enjoy a priority. In particular, don't allow employers to get away with hiring a cheaper foreign worker instead.
    Whenever possible, we should strive for a local-prefered policy.
    That's what my boss is doing (and he isn't even local) but it's so hard to get a local engineer.
    Most locals have shunned engineering for the finance industry.
    Go to our unis/polys and you'll find 90% of those enrolled in engineering courses are non-locals.

  3. #43
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    Whenever possible, we should strive for a local-prefered policy.
    That's what my boss is doing (and he isn't even local) but it's so hard to get a local engineer.
    Most locals have shunned engineering for the finance industry.
    Go to our unis/polys and you'll find 90% of those enrolled in engineering courses are non-locals.
    And yet so many local complaining they cant find a job or FT stealing thier jobs :-( actually there's so many jobs out there just that only few locals would want them :-( Like in y case we are in the IT but the side of IT where locals dont want shifting/on-calls/on standby none office enviroment...
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    Whenever possible, we should strive for a local-prefered policy.
    That's what my boss is doing (and he isn't even local) but it's so hard to get a local engineer.
    Most locals have shunned engineering for the finance industry.
    Go to our unis/polys and you'll find 90% of those enrolled in engineering courses are non-locals.
    what! hahaha. ironic. after i graduated i ended up in the finance industry because no one wanted to hire me as an engineer
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shizuma View Post
    what! hahaha. ironic. after i graduated i ended up in the finance industry because no one wanted to hire me as an engineer
    I want to hire you! I pay cat food can liao right?
    well even mr bloomberg was an EE and ended up in wall street...

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    That's what my boss is doing (and he isn't even local) but it's so hard to get a local engineer.
    That's because only here in Singapore do engineers get paid sh1t for the amount of sh1t that they do.

    In my sector of industry, let's say an aerospace engineering graduate from NTU decided to be employed as a Trainee Licensed Aircraft Engineer (TLAE) after four years of slogging away in university. For the first three years thereafter, they will only basically be on an apprenticeship / trainee allowance as they qualify their way towards a CAAS SAR-66 Category B1 / B2 or Category C Aircraft Maintenance License which by then their fellow counterparts in university from other disciplines or industries would have earned two, three, four fold more than what they are drawing currently.

    Oh, did I mentioned they have to sign a 10 years bond with a break bond fee of ~S$80,000 and possibly work 18 hours per shift sweating away for the meagre allowance and remuneration package they are getting? I believe such a circumstances is the same for other local engineers in other industries as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    Go to our unis/polys and you'll find 90% of those enrolled in engineering courses are non-locals.
    Are you sure? I do some lecturing as a guest speaker from time to time and while there is a significant number of foreigners I doubt that it is even 90%.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    Are you sure? I do some lecturing as a guest speaker from time to time and while there is a significant number of foreigners I doubt that it is even 90%.
    I've been to a class where there were only 4-5 locals out of 50 students.
    My roomie was in a course (civil engineering, pipeline for O&G) where there were no locals at all.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    That's because only here in Singapore do engineers get paid sh1t for the amount of sh1t that they do.

    In my sector of industry, let's say an aerospace engineering graduate from NTU decided to be employed as a Trainee Licensed Aircraft Engineer (TLAE) after four years of slogging away in university. For the first three years thereafter, they will only basically be on an apprenticeship / trainee allowance as they qualify their way towards a CAAS SAR-66 Category B1 / B2 or Category C Aircraft Maintenance License which by then their fellow counterparts in university from other disciplines or industries would have earned two, three, four fold more than what they are drawing currently.

    Oh, did I mentioned they have to sign a 10 years bond with a break bond fee of ~S$80,000 and possibly work 18 hours per shift sweating away for the meagre allowance and remuneration package they are getting? I believe such a circumstances is the same for other local engineers in other industries as well.


    Are you sure? I do some lecturing as a guest speaker from time to time and while there is a significant number of foreigners I doubt that it is even 90%.
    I think all these bad press about Engineer is not really doing our industry any good actually.

    Frankly it is not THAT bad. I read somewhere that Finance people tend to say their salary is 2x what their actual salary is while Engineers tend to say 0.5x

    I do agree that it is really hard to get any good local engineers nowadays, partly because of all the "bad press". Granted if you compare to the top earners in Finance/sales, engineers can't be paid that much. But I think not everyone is suited for doing Finance. If you like engineering and do well in it, I would still encourage one to become an engineer. But only if you do WELL in it.

  9. #49
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    The bottom line here there's job opening and oppurtunities... there's plenty of works for everyone c'mon Singaprean grab them before the employers are forced to give them to FTs..... some of us ask too much I even have one instance I was suppose to interview him but it felt like the interviewe becomes the interviewer they ask and demand so many things..... Yes we all want to get the perfect job and perfect benefits but there's no such thing actually....
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  10. #50
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by dniwkh View Post
    I think all these bad press about Engineer is not really doing our industry any good actually.

    Frankly it is not THAT bad. I read somewhere that Finance people tend to say their salary is 2x what their actual salary is while Engineers tend to say 0.5x

    I do agree that it is really hard to get any good local engineers nowadays, partly because of all the "bad press". Granted if you compare to the top earners in Finance/sales, engineers can't be paid that much. But I think not everyone is suited for doing Finance. If you like engineering and do well in it, I would still encourage one to become an engineer. But only if you do WELL in it.
    Oh ME and EE are hard to find in Singapore... We are also hunting for ME and EE and it took us few months to get one
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  11. #51
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    [...]Like in y case we are in the IT but the side of IT where locals dont want shifting/on-calls/on standby none office enviroment...
    To a certain extend I can understand them. Looking at the lousy payment they get for being on shifts or stand by, compared with the responsibility they have in such a moment, the payment is ridiculous. And looking at the statement of a government offical with regards to nurses it's obvious where this comes from. In German there is a saying: The fish starts getting smelly from the head.
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    If you go to any of our unis or research centers, tell me how many are locals. Tell me how many are not new citizens.
    I can tell you, you won't find a whole lot of them. If you insist on locals only hiring policy, good luck getting anything done.
    It's not that there aren't any capable locals, it's just there's too few of them.
    Again, find the root cause. What you describe is the effect, the result of decisions, attitude, certain social and demographic developments ..
    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    For the bio research are u talking about stem-cell research? That was banned from federal support by GWBush in the States.
    And? Does GWB has anything to say here in SG? Do you think, if there is any money to make with such research, your government would stand up and ban it? It's one way to attract investments: allowing things that are banned elsewhere.
    EOS

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    ... And looking at the statement of a government offical with regards to nurses it's obvious where this comes from. In German there is a saying: The fish starts getting smelly from the head.
    We have senior level management personnel from parent HQ with appointments in Temasek Holdings coming to tell us that we have our jobs just only because we are paid "competitively" and yet ironically, we have local engineers leaving for rival shops in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan corporations who are aggressively offering a better remuneration package as the market expands rapidly.

    So I guess we should all not request for much and be grateful still that we even have a rice bowl.
    Last edited by 9V-Orion Images; 24th February 2013 at 02:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by dniwkh View Post
    I think all these bad press about Engineer is not really doing our industry any good actually.

    Frankly it is not THAT bad. I read somewhere that Finance people tend to say their salary is 2x what their actual salary is while Engineers tend to say 0.5x

    I do agree that it is really hard to get any good local engineers nowadays, partly because of all the "bad press". Granted if you compare to the top earners in Finance/sales, engineers can't be paid that much. But I think not everyone is suited for doing Finance. If you like engineering and do well in it, I would still encourage one to become an engineer. But only if you do WELL in it.
    What bad press? This is cold hard reality and a fact of live for many engineering graduates who embarked on their chosen course of study as a career so how do you want to suger coat it? I can't speak for other industries or sectors but I hardly doubt that they are any different but currently there is a global shortage of labour for qualified aerospace engineers and technicians especially in the booming Asian market that is rapidly expanding as China continue to rise.

    Instead of offering a reason such as better pay etc. etc. to entice local engineering graduates with attractive benefits in remuneration package that outweigh the many disadvantages and whereby they can see a future in such a career. Companies desperate to increase their bottom line (revenue, turnover etc. etc.) are turning primarily to cheaper source of foreign labour to solve this labour crunch and claiming "oh, we offered the job positions at "market rates (pegged to what foreign labour are receiving of course)" for months on end but no Singaporeans wanted to be better, cheaper, faster" and yet other countries have no problems hiring highly valued local engineering graduates, our experienced Singaporean / Malaysian License Aircraft Engineers (LAEs) and technicians as well.

    One not so fine day, this supply of cheap labour is going to run out even from other "third world nations" and our addicted economy is going to suffer from some painful withdrawal symptoms.
    Last edited by 9V-Orion Images; 24th February 2013 at 05:33 AM.
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    If you look outside of Singapore, silver haired professional engineers are valued and command very high salary. But in Singapore, when you reached a certain age, very hard to keep or find job cos you have become a liability. Local firms seems to take engineering lightly choosing to shrimp on salary or look for cheaper source.
    Last edited by ManWearPants; 24th February 2013 at 08:22 AM.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Octarine View Post
    And? Does GWB has anything to say here in SG? Do you think, if there is any money to make with such research, your government would stand up and ban it? It's one way to attract investments: allowing things that are banned elsewhere.
    GWB banned it because of his own religious beliefs. It wasn't about money for him.
    SG practically opened its arms wide to attract the researchers from the States.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    I think the dissenting voices are saying that those jobs that Singaporeans can and would like to do, they should enjoy a priority. In particular, don't allow employers to get away with hiring a cheaper foreign worker instead.
    It is just human nature. The neighbour's grass is always greener. I do not think it is only Singaporeans who avoid so called labouring, dirty engineering jobs. It is funny that Malaysia has this same problem. But then, you find Malaysians doing factory and security guard duties with lots of unsocial hours in Singapore but not in Malaysia where there is acute shortage of these same personnel locally. Even with minimum wage law in Malaysia most workers in factory and security jobs are from other Asian countries. I guess everyone are after the big bucks but hate paying the extra cost. This same merry-go-round can be seen all around the world. US complaining about Mexicans, Uk now complaining about Eastern Europeans.And last but not least the whole world complaining about PRC.

    EVERYONE MUST ASK OF THEMSELVES, ARE WE WILLING TO PAY THE COST.

  18. #58
    Moderator Octarine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by ManWearPants View Post
    If you look outside of Singapore, silver haired professional engineers are valued and command very high salary. But in Singapore, when you reached a certain age, very hard to keep or find job cos you have become a liability. Local firms seems to take engineering lightly choosing to shrimp on salary or look for cheaper source.
    Not sure whether I mentioned this already: when BMW and Porsche built new factories in Germany, near city of Leipzig, they specifically looked for people 50+ for all kinds of positions: engineers at assembly belts as well as management positions and administration. Simple reason: they were looking for knowledge, experience, stability and reliability of staff, low turn over. Finally, about 40% of all staff was of this age range. Beginning with 55 (female) and 60 (male) they could opt for part time contracts to slowly disengage from working life and still contribute to the company. They don't get a ridiculous high or low salary (wouldn't be possible in Germany's union-controlled labour market), but it values their skills and knowledge. Finally, these people feel needed and appreciated, maybe that's the most important but least tangible part for these people.
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    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    Quote Originally Posted by 9V-Orion Images View Post
    That's because only here in Singapore do engineers get paid sh1t for the amount of sh1t that they do.

    .

    are u able to quote some salary numbers ? Always very curious what aerospace engineers make straight out of school and 4-5 years down the line
    Last edited by ed9119; 24th February 2013 at 11:54 AM.
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  20. #60

    Default Re: Labor Curbs After Protest in the Heartland?

    When employers said they cannot find Engineers.
    What they meant was they cannot find experienced engineers willing to accept the peanut pay.
    Companies don't want to spent money and time to train engineers because they feel that the engineers will go to another company for higher pay.
    That means the fresh graduates have little chances of finding a job because they are not qualify.
    The starting pay for fresh graduates is also too low for Singapore rising cost of living.

    Foreign companies setting up operation is trying to save cost - labor, taxes and others.
    They are not going to pay locals the same wages as the Engineers in their home countries.

    That means SG is a 1st world but the workers can only get 3rd world pay.

    The only way these foreign companies will stay in SG is when they can 3rd world workers willing to accept 3rd world wages.
    Last edited by Yutaka Go; 24th February 2013 at 12:20 PM.
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