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Thread: Petition urging the United Nations to reject Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the

  1. #61
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    The truth is ...right or wrong in the past dun make a difference. But how to make the difference right in the present and the future. This not only applies to governments but to us the citizens of different countries.

    If you dun stop the aggressive rhetorics, when will the chance for peace and love

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    You are incredible. Look here, the only point that I have ever made is that, there are people who don't like China. And all the examples I have quoted are reasons why this might be so. I have never implied or ever suggested that it might be China's fault. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I've the stance you think I have.
    No, you ARE incredible, why have you gathered all the points that there ARE people that dislike China? Is there any dispute on this issue? You drag the true subject from left to right and back again! Why have you make the issue you don't believe/stance? Perhaps you should have a look on your own post to see whether you have a biase opnions on all the issues that you brought out without on their sides? Should I bring out everything you posted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    On the India-Pakistan issue, I was asking a question from a probable viewpoint of the Indians. How does that suggest to you that I'm on the Indian's side???
    Did I mention that you are on their sides? Are you putting words into my mouth? I merely stated reason against your point of view, can't I?? Ooops, I forgot, you are merely stating others' dislike not yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    And on the Korean issue, I have never made any justification for the Korean cause at all. All I have suggested is there are some Koreans who view China as a foreign aggressor. This I know as a fact, because I know of Koreans who view them as this way. In no way was I ever saying that I share the same view as them. I believe that there are people who dislike China, but that doesn't say anything about me believing and supporting the cause of these people who dislike China.
    Yes, so your point in? There is none. All taken from others views as such existed. You merely pointed out (passionally) that there are others that dislike China.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    So in what way was I not being objective? The point that I have made is that some people don't like China. And I have listed the reason why it might so. I have not mentioned anything all on why they SHOULD be disliked, or why they SHOULD be liked. If you were wanting to debate, you should be disputing whether my statement is true or false. Not about whether these people have the justification for having their dislike. There is a very big difference between these two issues.
    I did. I sited historical facts to dispute your/quoted claims for Goguryeo until you mentioned that there not point in arguing as there will alway be people who dislike China no matter what I say! How could I justify whether your statement is true or not when you push it to the quotes of those people who will always dislike China no matter what I said? Some examples:

    However, despite whatever right justifications China have for their actions, it still doesn't change the fact there are people who don't like China. Especially for people on the losing end of whatever exchanges they had with China. Even if they are wrong.

    You think the Vietnameses will say," Cheez, we were wrong. Thanks for turning your guns on us to remind us that."? Or the Indians will say,"Wow, you guys are great. You spanked our bottom really good and helped us get back home to New Delhi really quick!".

    What you are saying now is a justification of the Chinese cause versus the views of Koreans. It doesn't matter who wrong or right, as long as there's someone who thinks the other guy is wrong, there will be conflict and disagreement.

    It doesn't matter whether they are right or justified in doing so. The animosity is just there at present. That's a fact.

    It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.


    All that you mentioned is that those point of view will always exists and that they are in no way related or link to your opinions, you are just quoting those disbeliever. Perhaps you should post your views and dispute mine with historical fact as well if you disagree. Gimme your own opinions, I wanna hear from you. Which is yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    If you can't get this point that I trying to make, I don't see how meaningful it is in continuing this debate, which I wasn't expecting to be dragged into anyway.
    That I agree. I can't debate on the quotes of others.
    Last edited by Hommie; 24th March 2005 at 04:31 AM.

  3. #63

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    U all know what is "Move mountain with one hand" or not?

    Go out & shoot more la. Still wanna change the world with empty tok here. Tokking here doesn't change anything. & don't go cutting off little fingers to protest & regret a day later...




    .

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    This is the last time I'm posting on this thread, as it seem the Hommie and I can't agree on what we are even debating on. It all started with this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    And what makes you think the country you listed will prefer China?
    You ever heard of the Spratlys? That seem pretty much like a potential mess with most of the countries you listed already. Then there this little backyard war Vietnam had with China? Or the little territorial war India had with China up in the mountains? And there's the bit about China supplying missile technology to Pakistan. And dun be misled, North Korea and South Korea treat China as much as an aggressor as Japan. There have almost been as many invasions into the Korean Peninsula by China as there are dynasties. Japan isn't the only country in the region to alter their history books. Just a couple of months ago, the Koreas were protesting about Chinese claims to
    territory in their history books.

    Just because Japan is less preferred, doesn't mean that China will be more well-liked. Learning from history and not repeating mistakes is such a cliche phrase. What's to really stop people from repeating mistakes if they are bent on doing it. And what makes China a less likely aggressor in future should it become more powerful? The first sign of an aggressor country is usually political and military power. With the largest army in Asia now, who is more a likely future threat, you decide.
    I posted the above as a reply to therat's post at post #28. All I did was to list a few examples on why there might be people who dislike China. I do not think that I was taking any sides at all when I listed these example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    Japanese is in tug of war with both Korean on Dokdo island and with China's Diaoyu island.

    Spratlys' dispute is slightly different, it starts from all the major countries on the east coast of East Asia from Japan, China, Korea, Vietam, Laos, Malaysia, Singapore to Indonesia and Philippines, all lay claims on the resourses rich islands. Are we all in potential mess??

    Please, read up on the Sino-Vietnam War on how it started. Isn't China on Vietnam's side when they are against the American? Do you know why Vietnam attack Cambodia? There's a reason for it and China did not started the war but merely help out a comrade!

    Please read up again, on this issue. Hope I don't need to explain everything you have not read up but bringing it up despite the lack of understanding the issue there. China push the offending Indian soldiers all the way to New Idelhi but with no intention on conquering, withdrew peacefully when they learnt their lessons.

    *Sign* The Indian could have their nuclear toys but not Pakistan is it?
    Please state the time and dates for your claims on China's full scale invasion of Korea. The only time was the 'Yuan' dynasty by the Mongols annex the Korean peninsular and later the Manchu in the 'Qing' dynasty.

    Strangely, there so far hundreds of protests by the south Korean against the Japanese on the issue of compension for comfort women and slavery of men and recently cutting fingers and self-burning of the disputed islands of Dokdo, all this and you only remember the protest on China on the disputed Three Kingdoms Period; Goguryeo, where the north Korean started. You clearly remembers the issues you wish to. The Kingdom of Goguryeo lie in the north-east of China until the Tang dynasty push it across to the current North Korea peninsular. China is only applying the site in North-East China to be the world heritage site, where the Korean started. Anything wrong with it?

    No but when a nation refuses to admit to the mistake it created how much could we trust it to speak for us? Have China attacked and killed millions? When the Japanese came to Singapore and rounded up hundred of young men to brutally shot and knifed them for the fear of resistant, have you read this part of the history?? The Sino-Japanese war started because of a few ultra-nationalistic self-armed militants with the under table blessing from the Japanese emperor headed invaded Korea first and attacked China on the ground of missing Japanese soldiers on China.

    The far right ultra-nationalist is making a coming back at influencing the change of history textbook on justification of invasion of China and the rest of S.E.A..Forcing their teacher to sing the old Rising Sun flag's Anthem and building the second strongest advance army in Asia after Australia. Yes, I suspect the military powers of japan's self-defence army is already more powerful than China's despite its size. Who is the likely aggressor, you decide...
    My subsequent replies to this post by Hommie has been trying to point out that people in these countries have animosity towards China.

    Just to give an analogy, If people from country A invaded country B, and they fought a war. Subsequently country A lost in the war to country B. Is it not reasonable to assume that there will be animosity between country A and country B? It doesn't matter whether which country was right or wrong, simply because the conflict took place, there will be a certain level of animosity between the two countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    Give me something that tell me that you are not relying on pure dislike of China to support your state.
    In post #49, Hommie, you made this statement, that I find is an assumption that I have a dislike of China. If that wasn't your intention, then maybe it's time to review how you use your language.

    I don't see how I was not being objective about my statement. The only opinion is that there are people that dislike China. Given another analogy,

    Statement 1:There are people that don't like Perfume X.
    Supporting Statement:I have a friend,A, that don't like Perfume X.

    What these 2 statements have done is state an fact that are people that don't like Perfume X. It says nothing about what I feel about Perfume X.

    I am not disputing your arguements on any of the historical events that you have mentioned.What I was trying to say, is no matter what was the actual outcome of the conflict, will there not be animosity between the parties involved? The party in the right will feel aggrieved that the aggressor has offended them. And the party in the wrong will feel that the other party is in opposition to them and therefore dislike them.

    I still do not see what is wrong with pointing out that there are people that dislike China. And what historical facts that you actually want me to present? That there are people who like or dislike China?

    I am of the opinion that Hommie and I are trying to debate on separate issues and hence the continuation of our discussion is meaningless. It's probably due to a misunderstanding or miscommunication of our intentions, so I hope to leave this discussion with no ill feelings. As such, I will no longer post on this thread or make any more comments on the issue.

  5. #65
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    Feels like a documentary in here.

    Cool it guys. Prismatic is just presenting what he feels. No need to get all personal over this and it's getting kind of political already. Before another person gets a bounty reward let's just chill..
    “How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.” - Adolf Hitler

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    *Pours ice water over the whole overheated thread* *Steam rises*
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

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    for Prismatic. Most cogent post in the entire thread. Frankly I fear China far more than Japan, recalcitrance over history or not. It is clear that China looks out strictly for China's interest only, and they are not shy about sticking out their elbows and poking fingers into people's eye. If they were a democracy, I wouldn't be too worried (democracies seldom go to war with other democracies), but they are not.

    Don't get me wrong, nothing would make me happier than for China to succeed economically and socially. Being an ethnic chinese, I do have some sentiment for the country, but I do not support their position or actions blindly just because I'm chinese.

    I hope they grow up quickly and become a benign super-power.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    This is the last time I'm posting on this thread, as it seem the Hommie and I can't agree on what we are even debating on. It all started with this thread.

    I posted the above as a reply to therat's post at post #28. All I did was to list a few examples on why there might be people who dislike China. I do not think that I was taking any sides at all when I listed these example.
    I have already answers questions pertaining the above on the my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    My subsequent replies to this post by Hommie has been trying to point out that people in these countries have animosity towards China.

    Just to give an analogy, If people from country A invaded country B, and they fought a war. Subsequently country A lost in the war to country B. Is it not reasonable to assume that there will be animosity between country A and country B? It doesn't matter whether which country was right or wrong, simply because the conflict took place, there will be a certain level of animosity between the two countries.

    In post #49, Hommie, you made this statement, that I find is an assumption that I have a dislike of China. If that wasn't your intention, then maybe it's time to review how you use your language.

    I don't see how I was not being objective about my statement. The only opinion is that there are people that dislike China. Given another analogy,

    Statement 1:There are people that don't like Perfume X.
    Supporting Statement:I have a friend,A, that don't like Perfume X.

    What these 2 statements have done is state an fact that are people that don't like Perfume X. It says nothing about what I feel about Perfume X.

    I am not disputing your arguements on any of the historical events that you have mentioned.What I was trying to say, is no matter what was the actual outcome of the conflict, will there not be animosity between the parties involved? The party in the right will feel aggrieved that the aggressor has offended them. And the party in the wrong will feel that the other party is in opposition to them and therefore dislike them.
    There is not point in pointing out these people existed. There was never a debate on such as you insisted. Only when I came out with the reason/historical backing to prove my point, I got an answer like:
    However, despite whatever right justifications China have for their actions, it still doesn't change the fact there are people who don't like China. Especially for people on the losing end of whatever exchanges they had with China. Even if they are wrong.

    You think the Vietnameses will say," Cheez, we were wrong. Thanks for turning your guns on us to remind us that."? Or the Indians will say,"Wow, you guys are great. You spanked our bottom really good and helped us get back home to New Delhi really quick!".

    What you are saying now is a justification of the Chinese cause versus the views of Koreans. It doesn't matter who wrong or right, as long as there's someone who thinks the other guy is wrong, there will be conflict and disagreement.

    It doesn't matter whether they are right or justified in doing so. The animosity is just there at present. That's a fact.

    It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.


    Its not base on any historical fact or arguement of flaws existance but solely on there lies such people existed. There is no longer meaning to disscussing a subject with another when he/she gives the above reason. No matter what I say, such person exist will push all reason out of the window despite being sound with it.

    Let all see whether I have assumpted that by mistake or you have taken stance on dislike/like China with all the quotes you mentions. Just read through everything Prismatic have posted and make your own judgements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    I still do not see what is wrong with pointing out that there are people that dislike China. And what historical facts that you actually want me to present? That there are people who like or dislike China?

    I am of the opinion that Hommie and I are trying to debate on separate issues and hence the continuation of our discussion is meaningless. It's probably due to a misunderstanding or miscommunication of our intentions, so I hope to leave this discussion with no ill feelings. As such, I will no longer post on this thread or make any more comments on the issue.
    Didn't you get it?? Its like someone saying there will alway be someone who hated China no matter what you said. Simply by answering to such simplistic one to all the questions and facts that you post comes to a not.

    To answer the above question on
    I still do not see what is wrong with pointing out that there are people that dislike China. And what historical facts that you actually want me to present? That there are people who like or dislike China?
    , there's nothing wrong but perhaps you should back up those people's theory by proving me wrong on the historical fact instead of answering my rebuttal with:

    However, despite whatever right justifications China have for their actions, it still doesn't change the fact there are people who don't like China. Especially for people on the losing end of whatever exchanges they had with China. Even if they are wrong.

    You think the Vietnameses will say," Cheez, we were wrong. Thanks for turning your guns on us to remind us that."? Or the Indians will say,"Wow, you guys are great. You spanked our bottom really good and helped us get back home to New Delhi really quick!".

    What you are saying now is a justification of the Chinese cause versus the views of Koreans. It doesn't matter who wrong or right, as long as there's someone who thinks the other guy is wrong, there will be conflict and disagreement.

    It doesn't matter whether they are right or justified in doing so. The animosity is just there at present. That's a fact.

    It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.


    I have no ill feelings but I look out for better debate on the subject who the poster is making a real statement of what he/she thinks rather than hearing quotes from such people existed. You certainly have let those people you quoted from down.
    Last edited by Hommie; 24th March 2005 at 11:02 AM.

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    Hahaha.. So should Japan get the seat?

    Can somebody start a poll? (I don't know how to start one. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    for Prismatic. Most cogent post in the entire thread. Frankly I fear China far more than Japan, recalcitrance over history or not. It is clear that China looks out strictly for China's interest only, and they are not shy about sticking out their elbows and poking fingers into people's eye. If they were a democracy, I wouldn't be too worried (democracies seldom go to war with other democracies), but they are not.
    No country does anything that is not non-conducive to themselves. If a land of Singapore have intentions to separate from the mainland get support from our neighbouring countries fanning flaming and giving/selling the separatist arms against us, trust me, we'll do even more than elbowing and poking fingers into eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    Don't get me wrong, nothing would make me happier than for China to succeed economically and socially. Being an ethnic chinese, I do have some sentiment for the country, but I do not support their position or actions blindly just because I'm chinese.

    I hope they grow up quickly and become a benign super-power.
    That I agreee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark75
    Hahaha.. So should Japan get the seat?

    Can somebody start a poll? (I don't know how to start one. )
    China is already on the Council, having Japan there will act as a counterweight.In fact, I feel that India should have a place there too.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  12. #72
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    My vote for Germany!

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    After taking a nap and sitting out in the cool air-conditioning of the clean room, I'm back again to reiterate my points... again.

    Honestly, I don't get the point of the reply that you posted all the way back in #42. All I'm saying is there are people who dislike China. And so you said,

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    There is not point in pointing out these people existed. There was never a debate on such as you insisted. Only when I came out with the reason/historical backing to prove my point, I got an answer like:
    What point were you exactly trying to prove by providing these historical data? I'm certainly not disputing the historical fact of the events. But look, these event did happen and when there are conflicts, there will be exist animosity. You don't expect them to patch up and be good friends right after they just had it all-out, do you?

    I'm not pushing your reasons or historical facts out the window, all I'm saying is there will be people who will continue to hold their beliefs (in this case, hating China) even after trying to explain to them who is right or wrong. Why can't such a person exist? All this person has to do is not believe your reasoning or self-denial that the reasoning is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    To answer the above question on I still do not see what is wrong with pointing out that there are people that dislike China. And what historical facts that you actually want me to present? That there are people who like or dislike China? , there's nothing wrong but perhaps you should back up those people's theory by proving me wrong on the historical fact instead of answering my rebuttal with:
    What theory do you actually want me to back up??? I certainly have not put forward any theory. And the historical facts of what? I have never even attempeted to challenge any of your historical facts.

    Was there a conflict between Vietnam and China? Yes.
    Was there a conflict between India and China? Yes.
    Is there a dispute between Korea and China right now on the Korguryo issue? Yes.
    Why isn't it possible that will be possible that there will be people that will dislike China because of these conflicts? You can argue with these people with all the soundness of any reasoning and all it takes is for them to ignore your reasonings and insist they are right. When someone are holding a grudge for somebody else, the grudge doesn't have to be rational. It just has to be a self-justification of he/she being right.

    I don't see how I'm holding any stances for disliking China simply by listing how there might be people who disliking China. Making a statement on somebody's perference isn't any indicator of my perference at all. And why would I be letting down the people that I've mentioned down? I'm not in anyway supporting their cause at all. You have been the one who's insisting that I'm holding a side all along. I've already told you that I'm not.
    Last edited by Prismatic; 24th March 2005 at 11:33 AM.

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    fwah ... arguing whole night (very bad for health) ... cow come home already

    this is getting nowhere. leave the 'dirty things' to 'dirty people' , put more energy on taking better photos. peace

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    Come on, I've already made clear what I was trying to point out in post #36. So tell me what you are actually try to say to me in your reply in post #42. Please don't say that you have already answered that question, because I really don't know, so please enlightened me.

  16. #76
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Honestly, I don't get the point of the reply that you posted all the way back in #42. All I'm saying is there are people who dislike China. And so you said,

    What point were you exactly trying to prove by providing these historical data? I'm certainly not disputing the historical fact of the events. But look, these event did happen and when there are conflicts, there will be exist animosity. You don't expect them to patch up and be good friends right after they just had it all-out, do you?

    I'm not pushing your reasons or historical facts out the window, all I'm saying is there will be people who will continue to hold their beliefs (in this case, hating China) even after trying to explain to them who is right or wrong. Why can't such a person exist? All this person has to do is not believe your reasoning or self-denial that the reasoning is flawed.
    Total non issue there, to quote an example from your answers: There will be people who support China no matter what you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    What theory do you actually want me to back up??? I certainly have not put forward any theory. And the historical facts of what? I have never even attempeted to challenge any of your historical facts.
    You are right, no stance, hence no issue here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Was there a conflict between Vietnam and China? Yes.
    Was there a conflict between India and China? Yes.
    Is there a dispute between Korea and China right now on the Korguryo issue? Yes.
    Why isn't it possible that will be possible that there will be people that will dislike China because of these conflicts? You can argue with these people with all the soundness of any reasoning and all it takes is for them to ignore your reasonings and insist they are right. When someone are holding a grudge for somebody else, the grudge doesn't have to be rational. It just has to be a self-justification of he/she being right.
    Yes, its a non issue there. You merely prove their existences. Answer to your quotes: There will be people who support China no matter what you say. No argument there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    I don't see how I'm holding any stances for disliking China simply by listing how there might be people who disliking China. Making a statement on somebody's perference isn't any indicator of my perference at all. And why would I be letting down the people that I've mentioned down? I'm not in anyway supporting their cause at all. You have been the one who's insisting that I'm holding a side all along. I've already told you that I'm not.
    Yes, its a non issue there. You merely prove their existences. Answer to your quotes: There will be people who support China no matter what you say. No argument there.
    Last edited by Hommie; 24th March 2005 at 12:20 PM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Come on, I've already made clear what I was trying to point out in post #36. So tell me what you are actually try to say to me in your reply in post #42. Please don't say that you have already answered that question, because I really don't know, so please enlightened me.
    I did. Its a non issue there. You merely prove their existences. Answer to your quotes: There will be people who support China no matter what you say. No argument there.

  18. #78
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    This is the last time I'm posting on this thread, as it seem the Hommie and I can't agree on what we are even debating on. It all started with this thread.

    It's probably due to a misunderstanding or miscommunication of our intentions, so I hope to leave this discussion with no ill feelings. As such, I will no longer post on this thread or make any more comments on the issue.
    Yes, its a non issue there. You merely stated your own answers and questions, play your own game with own rules. Answer to your quotes: There will be people who support China no matter what you say. No argument there.

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    wow!

    didn't know this little thread can go until 4 pages.
    Amazed.

    Now, after reading all these mail.

    I think is the best for me to came out and say my reason/objective to start this thread.

    Personally, I didn't support Japan on this permanent seat.
    The reason is very simple.
    1. They didn't admit their mistake on WWII.
    2. They change or had their own history version of WWII.
    3. They try to tell their young genertation that Japan didn't start the war. They came to FREE the country whose was under England, Western country hand.
    4. They are rescuer.

    With all these, I don't feel they earn a seat of it. As they don't even earn a respect from others.

    So.. cool down , man...

    everyone has their own pt of view. Just learn live with it.

    My father also say
    "1 type of rice feed 100 type of ppl"

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    ok... cool cool chill...

    prismatic's point of view is very clear.. he just said "There will be people who dislike China."

    It's the same as ppl who do not like their cameras to be made in thailand/china.

    Hommie: Let the matter rest already. Debating isn't all about winning. It's about agreeing to disagree. Agreed?

    So.. what's the diff if you said "There will be ppl who like China?" Isn't it the same thing? I can go and and fire another debate that there is also the 3rd group that will stay neutral and will neither dislike nor like china.

    Don't put a bounty on me. I'm just trying to bring peace.
    “How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.” - Adolf Hitler

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