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Thread: Petition urging the United Nations to reject Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDSNP
    I wonder.. Why are there still so many China threat theorists out there?
    In 1949, China, then a weak country, had to cede much of its territory to USSR after having its arm twisted by the Soviet bloc. Now even after Beijing has gained more clout vis-a-vis a very weak Moscow, did China make any effort in regaining the ceded land?
    I think you are taking things a bit out of context here. I sort of view that as a trade-off, for Soviet non-interference during China's invasion of Mongolia and Tibet. And whoever says Moscow is weak? Definitely, their economy is in shambles, but when you are a nuclear power, there's no such thing as being weak. And China is still very much reliant on Russian technologies in a lot of things, for example of particular interest recently, space travel and fighter planes.

    I don't think I'm a China threat theorist. But the fact is, there are countries that do view China as a threat at present. And as I said, China may not be making efforts in regaining the ceded land now. But what's to ensure that they WILL NOT in future? Countries don't make decisions simply because of present events, they make decisions that will ensure the progress of their national interest in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    And what makes you think the country you listed will prefer China?
    You ever heard of the Spratlys? That seem pretty much like a potential mess with most of the countries you listed already.
    Japanese is in tug of war with both Korean on Dokdo island and with China's Diaoyu island.

    Spratlys' dispute is slightly different, it starts from all the major countries on the east coast of East Asia from Japan, China, Korea, Vietam, Laos, Malaysia, Singapore to Indonesia and Philippines, all lay claims on the resourses rich islands. Are we all in potential mess??

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Then there this little backyard war Vietnam had with China?
    Please, read up on the Sino-Vietnam War on how it started. Isn't China on Vietnam's side when they are against the American? Do you know why Vietnam attack Cambodia? There's a reason for it and China did not started the war but merely help out a comrade!

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Or the little territorial war India had with China up in the mountains?
    Please read up again, on this issue. Hope I don't need to explain everything you have not read up but bringing it up despite the lack of understanding the issue there. China push the offending Indian soldiers all the way to New Idelhi but with no intention on conquering, withdrew peacefully when they learnt their lessons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    And there's the bit about China supplying missile technology to Pakistan. And dun be misled, North Korea and South Korea treat China as much as an aggressor as Japan. There have almost been as many invasions into the Korean Peninsula by China as there are dynasties.
    *Sign* The Indian could have their nuclear toys but not Pakistan is it?
    Please state the time and dates for your claims on China's full scale invasion of Korea. The only time was the 'Yuan' dynasty by the Mongols annex the Korean peninsular and later the Manchu in the 'Qing' dynasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Japan isn't the only country in the region to alter their history books. Just a couple of months ago, the Koreas were protesting about Chinese claims to territory in their history books.
    Strangely, there so far hundreds of protests by the south Korean against the Japanese on the issue of compension for comfort women and slavery of men and recently cutting fingers and self-burning of the disputed islands of Dokdo, all this and you only remember the protest on China on the disputed Three Kingdoms Period; Goguryeo, where the north Korean started. You clearly remembers the issues you wish to. The Kingdom of Goguryeo lie in the north-east of China until the Tang dynasty push it across to the current North Korea peninsular. China is only applying the site in North-East China to be the world heritage site, where the Korean started. Anything wrong with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Just because Japan is less preferred, doesn't mean that China will be more well-liked. Learning from history and not repeating mistakes is such a cliche phrase. What's to really stop people from repeating mistakes if they are bent on doing it. And what makes China a less likely aggressor in future should it become more powerful? The first sign of an aggressor country is usually political and military power. With the largest army in Asia now, who is more a likely future threat, you decide.
    No but when a nation refuses to admit to the mistake it created how much could we trust it to speak for us? Have China attacked and killed millions? When the Japanese came to Singapore and rounded up hundred of young men to brutally shot and knifed them for the fear of resistant, have you read this part of the history?? The Sino-Japanese war started because of a few ultra-nationalistic self-armed militants with the under table blessing from the Japanese emperor headed invaded Korea first and attacked China on the ground of missing Japanese soldiers on China.

    The far right ultra-nationalist is making a coming back at influencing the change of history textbook on justification of invasion of China and the rest of S.E.A..Forcing their teacher to sing the old Rising Sun flag's Anthem and building the second strongest advance army in Asia after Australia. Yes, I suspect the military powers of japan's self-defence army is already more powerful than China's despite its size. Who is the likely aggressor, you decide...
    Last edited by Hommie; 24th March 2005 at 12:13 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    I don't think I'm a China threat theorist. But the fact is, there are countries that do view China as a threat at present. And as I said, China may not be making efforts in regaining the ceded land now. But what's to ensure that they WILL NOT in future? Countries don't make decisions simply because of present events, they make decisions that will ensure the progress of their national interest in the future.
    Easy, look at the history of the China can tell you that China is not a war hungry nation. Infact it have suffered under the threat of invading forces through out the times.

    Japan on the other hands, has had their tentacles all over asia and have not done what the Germany did. Admit to their mistakes.

    Give the seat to the Germans instead.

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    It's good to know that you have done your reading to provide so much rebuttal. However, despite whatever right justifications China have for their actions, it still doesn't change the fact there are people who don't like China. Especially for people on the losing end of whatever exchanges they had with China. Even if they are wrong.

    You think the Vietnameses will say," Cheez, we were wrong. Thanks for turning your guns on us to remind us that."? Or the Indians will say,"Wow, you guys are great. You spanked our bottom really good and helped us get back home to New Delhi really quick!".

    And talking about providing nuclear missiles to Pakistan, so why is there a need to provide Pakistan with nuclear warheads? Why, to balance the military balance between India and Pakistan? To maintain a counter-threat to maintain world peace? If you are providing weapons to my enemy, what does that make you? A casual by-stander or my enemy?

    Before the Yuan Dynasty, there was invasions launched by the Sui Dynasty( AD 589), and also later the Tang Dynasty(AD 681 in collaboration with Shilla). It doesn't matter whether how many times you need to kick someone before he/she actually feels the pain right? One time is already one time too many.

    Though it sound perfectly alright to just apply for a site to be World Heritage site. Someone people especially the Koreans don't think too nicely of that. What you are saying now is a justification of the Chinese cause versus the views of Koreans.

    It doesn't matter who wrong or right, as long as there's someone who thinks the other guy is wrong, there will be conflict and disagreement. Just like right now, you suggest that I don't know my history well. Well, I think you are being overly-certain of yourself (Matter-of-point speaking).

    Before you actually dismiss someone as being non-objective, please take a look at the comments you make. I don't claim to be an expert on Asian history, but at least I'm trying to point out that there are people who doesn't view the rise of China as all too friendly. There's no need to insult me by suggesting that I don't know my part of Singapore history. I'm quite a proud citizen of my country. You should know also that after independence, without Japanese economical and industrial help, We wouldn't have grown as fast as we had before. You can always say that it's only rightful that the Japanese should repay for what they did. But the fact is, they could have said NO. Though maybe not complete, but you can't deny the fact that it goes a little to their redemption card.

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    [QUOTE=Hommie]Easy, look at the history of the China can tell you that China is not a war hungry nation. Infact it have suffered under the threat of invading forces through out the times.
    [QUOTE]

    Ah huh. This is such a great arguement. RIGHT.
    So how does that ensure it wouldn't in future? Especially now it's much stronger? It's like saying,"The world will never stop spinning tomorrow, because it has never stopped spinning before."
    Last edited by Prismatic; 24th March 2005 at 12:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by denniskee
    To forgive one's mistake, one must 1st admit the mistake. What is worst here is they twisted the fact, teaches their version of WWII.
    Agreed, but between Japan and China, based on present circumstances, I'd pick Japan as the lesser of the two evils

    How about the way China treated the Tibetans?

    The way China throws its weight around today with their fast growing influence is indeed very chilling. The amount of noise they generated - even with Singapore over a small issue that is well within Singapore's right is extremely sickening and distasteful

    Everyday there are news about cross straits tensions between China & Taiwan and the way China is elbowing other countries into their favour is very high handed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Ah huh. This is such a great arguement. RIGHT.
    So how does that ensure it wouldn't in future? Especially now it's much stronger? It's like saying,"The world will never stop spinning tomorrow, because it has never stopped spinning before."
    Yes, that's as true as trusting the Japanese who has yet to admit to committing the mistake they made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goering
    Agreed, but between Japan and China, based on present circumstances, I'd pick Japan as the lesser of the two evils

    How about the way China treated the Tibetans?

    The way China throws its weight around today with their fast growing influence is indeed very chilling. The amount of noise they generated - even with Singapore over a small issue that is well within Singapore's right is extremely sickening and distasteful

    Everyday there are news about cross straits tensions between China & Taiwan and the way China is elbowing other countries into their favour is very high handed
    See, at least we know how Japan can become.The chilling part is that China is now like a scrawny giant given an exoskeletion,a Gatling gun and unlimited ammo.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    It's good to know that you have done your reading to provide so much rebuttal. However, despite whatever right justifications China have for their actions, it still doesn't change the fact there are people who don't like China. Especially for people on the losing end of whatever exchanges they had with China. Even if they are wrong.

    You think the Vietnameses will say," Cheez, we were wrong. Thanks for turning your guns on us to remind us that."? Or the Indians will say,"Wow, you guys are great. You spanked our bottom really good and helped us get back home to New Delhi really quick!".
    Haha, so you are saying that no reason however sound would give reasons for you believing that China is a threat. By saying that, you have already seal ratification for all reason cause you openly dislike China. What have mentions is facts of history. If you have a better understanding of history, kindly enlighten us or state history for my rebuttal. I will be fair.

    So tell me, what happened in India and vietnam that causes tha war against China? Give me something that tell me that you are not relying on pure dislike of China to support your state. What we have disscuss about here is incident, not a personal attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    And talking about providing nuclear missiles to Pakistan, so why is there a need to provide Pakistan with nuclear warheads? Why, to balance the military balance between India and Pakistan? To maintain a counter-threat to maintain world peace? If you are providing weapons to my enemy, what does that make you? A casual by-stander or my enemy?
    What the USA could arm the world they think is right, terror campaign supported in Peru by them. India can threaten Pakistan by the help of Russia is right? You are talking about arming Taiwan by US make US what? A casual by-stander or China's enemy?? Is that world peace/balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Before the Yuan Dynasty, there was invasions launched by the Sui Dynasty( AD 589), and also later the Tang Dynasty(AD 681 in collaboration with Shilla). It doesn't matter whether how many times you need to kick someone before he/she actually feels the pain right? One time is already one time too many.
    Did you know Silla Kingdom of Korea is part of the ethic mix of Korean now. The Three Kingdoms Period; Goguryeo (north), Baekje (southwest) and Silla (southeast) is what makes the modern Korea. The Goguryeo have conquered a large part of modern day North-East China, thus kicking China's butt first before that Tang dynasty pushes back their influence to today's Korea. Yup, I agreed one time by Korean is one time too many. Make sure you get who kick who first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Though it sound perfectly alright to just apply for a site to be World Heritage site. Someone people especially the Koreans don't think too nicely of that. What you are saying now is a justification of the Chinese cause versus the views of Koreans.
    It doesn't matter who wrong or right, as long as there's someone who thinks the other guy is wrong, there will be conflict and disagreement. Just like right now, you suggest that I don't know my history well. Well, I think you are being overly-certain of yourself (Matter-of-point speaking).
    Strange, I am based on the information that you posted. I am tired of posting information that can be obtained at the touch of your fingertips and when you threw your views, it is good that you can back it up using as much as info as possible so that it will not sound like a groundless accusations on views debated. If you have more info for rebutting me, go ahead. Drown me with it.

    The historical site is situated at North-East China, what's wrong with it? Its not stolen or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Before you actually dismiss someone as being non-objective, please take a look at the comments you make. I don't claim to be an expert on Asian history, but at least I'm trying to point out that there are people who doesn't view the rise of China as all too friendly. There's no need to insult me by suggesting that I don't know my part of Singapore history. I'm quite a proud citizen of my country. You should know also that after independence, without Japanese economical and industrial help, We wouldn't have grown as fast as we had before. You can always say that it's only rightful that the Japanese should repay for what they did. But the fact is, they could have said NO. Though maybe not complete, but you can't deny the fact that it goes a little to their redemption card.
    The Germans have done much to the victims of the holocaust, what have the Japanese done? After expressing deep remorse there are very little indication of what they have learnt from changing the history textbook. Economical contribution is a separate issue from the admitting the truth. Nothing that having to a full admittance is going to get the full friendship of the rest of the asian countries.

    Its like an insult when someone came into our playground, rape, plunder and kill and later give money for us to forgive him/her without admitting it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by goering
    Agreed, but between Japan and China, based on present circumstances, I'd pick Japan as the lesser of the two evils

    How about the way China treated the Tibetans?
    Huh? Ever heard of Nanjing Massacre? Not saying that it is right but pale in comparsion.

    Quote Originally Posted by goering
    The way China throws its weight around today with their fast growing influence is indeed very chilling. The amount of noise they generated - even with Singapore over a small issue that is well within Singapore's right is extremely sickening and distasteful

    Everyday there are news about cross straits tensions between China & Taiwan and the way China is elbowing other countries into their favour is very high handed
    Likely that Singapore will do likewise if Sentosa is to separate from our mainland, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    See, at least we know how Japan can become.The chilling part is that China is now like a scrawny giant given an exoskeletion,a Gatling gun and unlimited ammo.
    You mean you rather choose Japan whose history includes massacring millions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    It doesn't matter who wrong or right, as long as there's someone who thinks the other guy is wrong, there will be conflict and disagreement. Just like right now, you suggest that I don't know my history well. Well, I think you are being overly-certain of yourself (Matter-of-point speaking).

    Before you actually dismiss someone as being non-objective, please take a look at the comments you make. I don't claim to be an expert on Asian history, but at least I'm trying to point out that there are people who doesn't view the rise of China as all too friendly. There's no need to insult me by suggesting that I don't know my part of Singapore history. I'm quite a proud citizen of my country.
    I am in no way overly certain of myself. I have used as much as I know on historical fact to prove my point.

    How could I have dismiss someone as non-objective? All views expressed here is an objective expression, how could a non-objective person debates when he/she have no view?

    There is no time at any point in time I have questioned your patriotism toward our country. Kindly point out those sentences I made that suggested you are as you mention that I did. I merely ask you opinions on the youth killed when the Japanese landed.

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    Look, you are getting a bit out of hand here. I've never said anything about me disliking China. That's putting words into my mouth. I'm merely pointing out the fact that there are people in many countries now that aren't too friendly to China. There's no point is trying to arguement here who is historically right or wrong. All I've said, as long as someone is on the losing end with China, they wouldn't take China all too kindly. It doesn't matter whether they are right or justified in doing so. The animosity is just there at present. That's a fact.

    What ever justification I have supposedly made, are made by you. Before you go on to post your next reply, take a review and see where in my posts have I ever tried to justify that China was wrong in doing whatever they did? I have been trying as hard as I can to be objective here.

    Sidetrack>> I do know that Shilla was a nation on the Korea Peninsula. But some Korea people view the then Tang dynasty as the foreign aggressor abetting the wars between the Korean nations. It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    I am in no way overly certain of myself. I have used as much as I know on historical fact to prove my point.

    How could I have dismiss someone as non-objective? All views expressed here is an objective expression, how could a non-objective person debates when he/she have no view?
    I hope we do have the same understanding of the word "objective".
    objective:adj; undistorted by emotion or personal bias. Your second statement in the above quote has the function of a double-negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    There is no time at any point in time I have questioned your patriotism toward our country. Kindly point out those sentences I made that suggested you are as you mention that I did. I merely ask you opinions on the youth killed when the Japanese landed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    When the Japanese came to Singapore and rounded up hundred of young men to brutally shot and knifed them for the fear of resistant, have you read this part of the history??
    I don't see how this particular sentence is asking me for my opinion. Maybe I'm sensitive to the language, but in every sense, this question seem to question my knowledge of Singapore history as a basic requirement of a normal citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Look, you are getting a bit out of hand here. I've never said anything about me disliking China. That's putting words into my mouth. I'm merely pointing out the fact that there are people in many countries now that aren't too friendly to China. There's no point is trying to arguement here who is historically right or wrong. All I've said, as long as someone is on the losing end with China, they wouldn't take China all too kindly. It doesn't matter whether they are right or justified in doing so. The animosity is just there at present. That's a fact.
    Just like you mentioned I have questioned your patriotism to our country when I merely enquire your knowledge of history when Japanese killed innocent men of Singapore. Why is it that there is no point in debating, in your sense when you mentioned that most of wrong laid in China's fault. You have made the same stance when you have questioned the historical facts to prove your points when you ask the question for them. If you have not agreed on their stance, then why quote them??

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    What ever justification I have supposedly made, are made by you. Before you go on to post your next reply, take a review and see where in my posts have I ever tried to justify that China was wrong in doing whatever they did? I have been trying as hard as I can to be objective here.
    "And talking about providing nuclear missiles to Pakistan, so why is there a need to provide Pakistan with nuclear warheads? Why, to balance the military balance between India and Pakistan? To maintain a counter-threat to maintain world peace? If you are providing weapons to my enemy, what does that make you? A casual by-stander or my enemy?" is that not mentioned by you? Is that not making a stance on side?? What's objective is that every single post you have mention that someone/countries don't like China and prefer Japan. Is that not a stance on objectivity?? Not a single post was on the other sides to balanced your objective you claim to be....

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Sidetrack>> I do know that Shilla was a nation on the Korea Peninsula. But some Korea people view the then Tang dynasty as the foreign aggressor abetting the wars between the Korean nations. It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.
    Those are few and far in between compared to the anti-Japanese protests that happened during this few years. You have choosen the specific incidents to support your views or is that someone elses view which you use but don't agree??
    " Before the Yuan Dynasty, there was invasions launched by the Sui Dynasty( AD 589), and also later the Tang Dynasty(AD 681 in collaboration with Shilla). It doesn't matter whether how many times you need to kick someone before he/she actually feels the pain right? One time is already one time too many. Though it sound perfectly alright to just apply for a site to be World Heritage site. Someone people especially the Koreans don't think too nicely of that. What you are saying now is a justification of the Chinese cause versus the views of Koreans.
    Is what you are saying justification of your common stance on the same issue? If there is any quotes you find questionable on your own opinions don't quote them! They are many people with the same stance but they don't quote what they don't believe.
    Last edited by Hommie; 24th March 2005 at 02:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    I hope we do have the same understanding of the word "objective".
    objective:adj; undistorted by emotion or personal bias. Your second statement in the above quote has the function of a double-negative.
    Heheh, perhaps you are right there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    I don't see how this particular sentence is asking me for my opinion. Maybe I'm sensitive to the language, but in every sense, this question seem to question my knowledge of Singapore history as a basic requirement of a normal citizen.
    This question have zero issues on the basic requirement of a normal citizen. You have taken the same question out of context here. Just to ensure that you have read and understood the historical facts there. Anyone could be a citizen and have zero knowledge of history of Singapore, there is absolutely nothing to do with history and requirements citizen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    I don't see how this particular sentence is asking me for my opinion. Maybe I'm sensitive to the language, but in every sense, this question seem to question my knowledge of Singapore history as a basic requirement of a normal citizen.
    It is pure and simple question on how you feel on the issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Sidetrack>> I do know that Shilla was a nation on the Korea Peninsula. But some Korea people view the then Tang dynasty as the foreign aggressor abetting the wars between the Korean nations. It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.
    If I tell you a quote from the opposite camp that thinks otherwise, can I tell you the same thing as 'It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.' as an end to a cause, then why go through all the discussions here. No point debating issues on different subjects since there will alway be people against it. What the point of posting on this thread? What's the point of this entire forum? It doesn't matters!

    And yes, I did post those people's quote but I am neutral in stance or I do not really identify/agree with. Hack, I post it for some response only, doesn't mean anything or even remotely link with my stances!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Before the Yuan Dynasty, there was invasions launched by the Sui Dynasty( AD 589), and also later the Tang Dynasty(AD 681 in collaboration with Shilla). It doesn't matter whether how many times you need to kick someone before he/she actually feels the pain right? One time is already one time too many.
    Above is what you mentioned earlier, is it your opinion there or is it someone elses quotes? I am getting more confused, perhaps its getting late.

    Later then you mentioned that,

    Quote Originally Posted by Prismatic
    Sidetrack>> I do know that Shilla was a nation on the Korea Peninsula. But some Korea people view the then Tang dynasty as the foreign aggressor abetting the wars between the Korean nations. It doesn't matter whether their thinking was faulted or historically inaccurate or not. There are people in Korea who think this way and it's not going to change in the near future.
    now it doesn't matters, as someone will always think that way. Which is it? Is there your point of view in there or no, you are posting for fun, got nothing to do with you point of you??

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    You are incredible. Look here, the only point that I have ever made is that, there are people who don't like China. And all the examples I have quoted are reasons why this might be so. I have never implied or ever suggested that it might be China's fault. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I've the stance you think I have.

    On the India-Pakistan issue, I was asking a question from a probable viewpoint of the Indians. How does that suggest to you that I'm on the Indian's side???

    And on the Korean issue, I have never made any justification for the Korean cause at all. All I have suggested is there are some Koreans who view China as a foreign aggressor. This I know as a fact, because I know of Koreans who view them as this way. In no way was I ever saying that I share the same view as them. I believe that there are people who dislike China, but that doesn't say anything about me believing and supporting the cause of these people who dislike China.

    So in what way was I not being objective? The point that I have made is that some people don't like China. And I have listed the reason why it might so. I have not mentioned anything all on why they SHOULD be disliked, or why they SHOULD be liked. If you were wanting to debate, you should be disputing whether my statement is true or false. Not about whether these people have the justification for having their dislike. There is a very big difference between these two issues.

    If you can't get this point that I trying to make, I don't see how meaningful it is in continuing this debate, which I wasn't expecting to be dragged into anyway.

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