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Thread: Petition urging the United Nations to reject Japan's bid for a permanent seat on the

  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    I'm more concerned with China behaving exactly like pre WW2 Germany and Japan.Belligerent, ambitious and etc..If you say that Tibet was wrong to declare independance, so is our very own existence a mere figment of your imagination?

    Certain things come in shades of grey, and within that are those dark enough to be apparent to all..
    If you said China was like that in 1960s, I will probably agree with you. Not all communists are evil. By the way, how can you rate China as Nazi/facist/imperialists together? I do not see China attacking other countries, murdering their citizens and occupied their territories as well.

    China was trying to recover the her tributary states which broke away illegally during her civil wars or unequal treaties signed with the foreigners during the Machu's reign. I see nothing wrong with it as it is purely an interior affairs. Moreover, none of the tributary states which broke off with China was ever recognised as independence nations by international communities (except for Mongolia gained indepedence by influence of the Russians).

    I know China's modern military history very well. Ask me if you are in doubt.

    Btw you are certainly wrong that we declared independence on our own. We were kicked out of federation before we even declared independence. I see you are confused with China's history as well as even our own ones.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy
    LazerLordz, better re-read your history, we did not exactly "declare" independence.
    That is missing the point. To say that Malaya threw us out, and therefore we have a stronger case for independence, is specious and peripheral to the main argument. Malaysia has a huge historical claim to our nation as part of the Malay archipelago. That we exist as an independent entity is testament to the fact that a nation can make a credible case for itself to be independent on the grounds of divergent political/social/ethnic leanings, AND be recognized under international law as such. I am not saying that Taiwan should declare independence, but I fail to see how their case for independence is any weaker than Singapore's.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    If you said China was like that in 1960s, I will probably agree with you. Not all communists are evil. By the way, how can you rate China as Nazi/facist/imperialists together? I do not see China attacking other countries, murdering their citizens and occupied their territories as well.

    China was trying to recover the her tributary states which broke away illegally during her civil wars or unequal treaties signed with the foreigners during the Machu's reign. I see nothing wrong with it as it is purely an interior affairs. Moreover, none of the tributary states which broke off with China was ever recognised as independence nations by international communities (except for Mongolia gained indepedence by influence of the Russians).

    I know China's modern military history very well. Ask me if you are in doubt.

    Btw you are certainly wrong that we declared independence on our own. We were kicked out of federation before we even declared independence. I see you are confused with China's history as well as even our own ones.

    I've already explained what my context was when I referred to us becoming independant.I'm talking in the context of being an independant state, and not of declaring independance.

    You call them Tributary States, that's already saying that they are obliged to pay deference to China.And based on what mandate does China deserve these states?On the account of past imperial glory?No nation has an inalienable right to vasal states.The dynamics of political control and influence change like the tide.

    Look at China today and no one would believe that she wants peace and not stamp what she thinks is her birthright all around the region.The PRC needs to get real and realise that her history is past and a future is not the same.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    Anyway, let's just leave it at that.
    agree, wasn't key to the thread anyway. question is: why is everyone still arguing about China, when the point is about Japan?

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Moreover, none of the tributary states which broke off with China was ever recognised as independence nations by international communities (except for Mongolia gained indepedence by influence of the Russians)..
    Totally untrue --> http://www.answers.com/topic/history-of-taiwan
    The history of Taiwan is a lot more complicated than many of you make it out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Btw you are certainly wrong that we declared independence on our own. We were kicked out of federation before we even declared independence.
    See post #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy
    agree, wasn't key to the thread anyway. question is: why is everyone still arguing about China, when the point is about Japan?
    back on track again

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwchoy
    agree, wasn't key to the thread anyway. question is: why is everyone still arguing about China, when the point is about Japan?
    Heh, thats because the main objector would be China and the Chinese who see it her way.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    Actually,
    I do know a little history. Suffice to say, I have no bias and feel a more balanced approach is appropriate. As for your graphic descriptions, I don't think the Japanese have any monopoly on brutality. Just take a look at Rwanda and Kosovo, why don't I see you raging against the Hutus or Serbs? And my comment on racism, do look at the post I was replying to......blatant racism against the Japanese. The same type of racism and bigotry that abetted the Holocaust and the Japanese atrocities we are now trying to put right. It may be acceptable to some members of this forum to express their rage by casting racial slurs, but NOT in my book, and I have the same right as anybody else to express that opinion. If you don't like it, tough.

    What I have emphasised consistently (I believe) in my few posts on this thread, is the need for balance. There is too much skewed opinion in the favour of China. Yes, it is a problem and to certain people it sticks in the throat that the Japanese government do not make an effort to come clean on this. That does not mean that the entire Japanese people are defined by this singular issue. Despite their faults, there is much to be admired about the Japanese, their society and work ethic. Do they deserve a permanent seat? I'm not so sure, but not based on this issue alone.

    Btw, I think WW3 is more likely to start across the Taiwan strait than across the Japan sea, and if it happens, China's belligerence and trigger-happiness will have a large part in starting it. I wish China well, but I fear for its development, truly.

    Believe me. China has already stated that it will never use forces against Taiwan if

    1) She doesn't station foreign troops
    2) She doesn't declare independence
    3) Taiwan can go with current system forever.

    What's there more to bargain? Why 24 millions seek to represent on China's 1.3 nillions behalf in UN? Unless it was some taiwanese idiots who like to stirr anti-China stance would probably cause the war in the Taiwan's straits. I see no aggression from PRC if Taiwan abides with the above conditions which the PRC mentioned.


    Btw we are discussing about Japanese pre/post war and asian affairs. I hope u can stick to the topic.

    That does not mean that the entire Japanese people are defined by this singular issue. Despite their faults, there is much to be admired about the Japanese, their society and work ethic. Do they deserve a permanent seat? I'm not so sure, but not based on this issue alone.
    I am never against her citizens. I am against their government and military. Please do not mix personal admiration for their people in Politics. Deserving a permanent seat in UN security council will need a nation to come clean with history. How come we allow a nation which killed millions, deny massarces, changed history facts and refusal for diplomatic apology to represent us? You must be kidding!

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Believe me. China has already stated that it will never use forces against Taiwan if

    1) She doesn't station foreign troops
    2) She doesn't declare independence
    3) Taiwan can go with current system forever.

    What's there more to bargain? Why 24 millions seek to represent on China's 1.3 nillions behalf in UN? Unless it was some taiwanese idiots who like to stirr anti-China stance would probably cause the war in the Taiwan's straits. I see no aggression from PRC if Taiwan abides with the above conditions which the PRC mentioned.


    Btw we are discussing about Japanese pre/post war and asian affairs. I hope u can stick to the topic.



    I am never against her citizens. I am against their government and military. Please do not mix personal admiration for their people in Politics. Deserving a permanent seat in UN security council will need a nation to come clean with history. How come we allow a nation which killed millions, deny massarces, changed history facts and refusal for diplomatic apology to represent us? You must be kidding!

    China has also stated that she will not allow the staus quo to continue.And if Taiwan sits in the UN General Assembly as an independant state, she represents her 24M people, not the 1 B of China.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    I've already explained what my context was when I referred to us becoming independant.I'm talking in the context of being an independant state, and not of declaring independance.

    You call them Tributary States, that's already saying that they are obliged to pay deference to China.And based on what mandate does China deserve these states?On the account of past imperial glory?No nation has an inalienable right to vasal states.The dynamics of political control and influence change like the tide.

    Look at China today and no one would believe that she wants peace and not stamp what she thinks is her birthright all around the region.The PRC needs to get real and realise that her history is past and a future is not the same.

    Yes that was tributary states, not nations. What make up of China proper now was all tributary states (Manchuria, inner Mogonlia, xinjiang etc) So going by your logics, all these states should gain independence as well??

    I don't think China is as dangerous as during the 1960s. She opened up her doors more than 20 yrs ago which in fact IMHO made her more "tame" and more open to communication. Unlike the Russian bloc of commuism, the russian/east germans built Berlin Walls and Russian invaded Czech to stop freedom. Today communism in China is much faded away. I certainly would had alot to worry about China if I live throughout the 1950/60s period but definitely not now.
    Last edited by tokrot; 30th March 2005 at 08:08 PM.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Yes that was tributary states, not nations. What make up of China proper now was all tributary states (Manchuria, inner Mogonlia, xinjiang etc) So going by your logics, all these states should gain independence.

    I don't think China is as dangerous as during the 1960s. She opened up her doors more than 20 yrs ago which in fact IMHO made her more "tame" and more open to communication. Unlike the Russian bloc of commuism, the russian/east germans built Berlin Walls and Russian invaded Czech to stop freedom. Today communism in China is much faded away. I certainly would had alot to worry about China if I live throughout the 1950/60s period but definitely not now.
    Granted credit to your point..but it's not Communism that we're worried about, it's their blind nationalism that's the crux of this issue.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Btw we are discussing about Japanese pre/post war and asian affairs. I hope u can stick to the topic.:
    Hmmm, but isn't the issue about Chinese sensitivities?

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    I am never against her citizens. I am against their government and military. Please do not mix personal admiration for their people in Politics. Deserving a permanent seat in UN security council will need a nation to come clean with history. How come we allow a nation which killed millions, deny massarces, changed history facts and refusal for diplomatic apology to represent us? You must be kidding!

    This is the first time you are saying that you are merely against the government and military ONLY, and not the people. When you say "Japanese zealots" I tend to think you are generalising. I also think you are overplaying the issue. My grand-dad lived through the Japanese occupation and witnessed a few be-headings and other cruelties. He never had any rancour towards the Japanese people subsequently and would laugh off this apology 'spat' as a non-issue.

    I think it is a stretch that a Japanese government who 60 years later is shy about admitting to previous atrocities is in such serious default that they should be denied a place on the council on that issue ALONE. On that basis, the Russians should be bumped off due to Stalin's cruelty to the Cossacks (starved them to death). The Americans, whoa, remember the slavery stuff, has any American President ever officially apologised for bringing the slaves to America? How about the French? I don't think they ever apologised to their European neighbours for the millions that died under the hands of Napoleon, did they? And the British, oh my.......

    By your logic, the only permanent member of the security council should be......China!

    I think we can agree to disagree.

    Cheers,

  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    Granted credit to your point..but it's not Communism that we're worried about, it's their blind nationalism that's the crux of this issue.
    Yes, I bit of worry about nationalism. That's a very dangerous. But I see in China stance is more of self pride, face-saving and losses of territories from unequal treaties. I believe China will not give up her 20 years of economical miracles for sake of a war but for Taiwan and unity, I cannot say the same or for sure! Good luck to Taiwanese!

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    Hmmm, but isn't the issue about Chinese sensitivities?




    This is the first time you are saying that you are merely against the government and military ONLY, and not the people. When you say "Japanese zealots" I tend to think you are generalising. I also think you are overplaying the issue. My grand-dad lived through the Japanese occupation and witnessed a few be-headings and other cruelties. He never had any rancour towards the Japanese people subsequently and would laugh off this apology 'spat' as a non-issue.

    I think it is a stretch that a Japanese government who 60 years later is shy about admitting to previous atrocities is in such serious default that they should be denied a place on the council on that issue ALONE. On that basis, the Russians should be bumped off due to Stalin's cruelty to the Cossacks (starved them to death). The Americans, whoa, remember the slavery stuff, has any American President ever officially apologised for bringing the slaves to America? How about the French? I don't think they ever apologised to their European neighbours for the millions that died under the hands of Napoleon, did they? And the British, oh my.......

    By your logic, the only permanent member of the security council should be......China!

    I think we can agree to disagree.

    Cheers,

    Good points there.Well, why not let the thread cool down...
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  15. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    Hmmm, but isn't the issue about Chinese sensitivities?




    This is the first time you are saying that you are merely against the government and military ONLY, and not the people. When you say "Japanese zealots" I tend to think you are generalising. I also think you are overplaying the issue. My grand-dad lived through the Japanese occupation and witnessed a few be-headings and other cruelties. He never had any rancour towards the Japanese people subsequently and would laugh off this apology 'spat' as a non-issue.

    I think it is a stretch that a Japanese government who 60 years later is shy about admitting to previous atrocities is in such serious default that they should be denied a place on the council on that issue ALONE. On that basis, the Russians should be bumped off due to Stalin's cruelty to the Cossacks (starved them to death). The Americans, whoa, remember the slavery stuff, has any American President ever officially apologised for bringing the slaves to America? How about the French? I don't think they ever apologised to their European neighbours for the millions that died under the hands of Napoleon, did they? And the British, oh my.......

    By your logic, the only permanent member of the security council should be......China!

    I think we can agree to disagree.

    Cheers,

    Well, I apologize if there has been any misunderstanding. All the while I was referring to Japanese Military and Government. It was never against their people.

    Btw my grandfather was taken away in a truck loaded with strangers and never came back to see my dad. Neither my dad has ever seen him as well.

    and please, we are referring to modern history- 20th century onwards why drag things which happened few thousands or hundreds years ago? Obviously, the Japanese had come to think the same as me when this issues goes by 200 yrs from then. Someone on that time would probably said the same thing as me now "Why bother what happened 200yrs ago?, it happened so long ago and doesn't affect me now". Well, everyone seems to forget the cause of WWII is the aftermath of WWI.

    Probably in 10 yrs' time, no survivors would live to tell the facts and the Japanese Government will have their usual way of rewriting their history.

    We may never know who are the right/left wingers controlling the Japanese Cabinet and never know what is going to happen in future in case they seek to "revenge" just like what Nazi Germans did. How can you be so sure it will not happen again? What if US is not the sole power and then Japan come loose again?

    By your logic, the only permanent member of the security council should be......China!
    I believe the security council should stay as it is. No changes. Maybe if one day, those Japanese zeolots can strike back, they can have all the seats by themselves.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    I think it is a stretch that a Japanese government who 60 years later is shy about admitting to previous atrocities is in such serious default that they should be denied a place on the council on that issue ALONE.
    Yes, just like lifting the Sanction Sales of Weapon to China by the EU be base on the Anti-Separatist Law passed in China against Taiwan alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    On that basis, the Russians should be bumped off due to Stalin's cruelty to the Cossacks (starved them to death).
    Let bump them off!

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    The Americans, whoa, remember the slavery stuff, has any American President ever officially apologised for bringing the slaves to America?
    Its been solved by the Civil War of North and South, remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    How about the French? I don't think they ever apologised to their European neighbours for the millions that died under the hands of Napoleon, did they?
    Pale in conparism of the nanjing massacre of innocent civilian, and 731.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    And the British, oh my.......
    But they came merely for economic gains rather than to kill, rape, torture, er.... you get the idea...

    Quote Originally Posted by dkw
    I think we can agree to disagree.
    Cheers,
    Yup
    Last edited by Hommie; 30th March 2005 at 08:37 PM.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Btw my grandfather was taken away in a truck loaded with strangers and never came back to see my dad. Neither my dad has ever seen him as well.
    Funny that that we have been branded as beating our drums on the 'Motherland', while here IS our motherland. And yes, we did suffer under the same Japanese rule. Sorry about your grandfather.

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    and please, we are referring to modern history- 20th century onwards why drag things which happened few thousands or hundreds years ago? Obviously, the Japanese had come to think the same as me when this issues goes by 200 yrs from then. Someone on that time would probably said the same thing as me now "Why bother what happened 200yrs ago?, it happened so long ago and doesn't affect me now". Well, everyone seems to forget the cause of WWII is the aftermath of WWI.
    Well, said.
    We are talking about the history that effects the modern world right now. Those history longer than 200 years ago have fewer if not, no impact on modern times now.

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    Probably in 10 yrs' time, no survivors would live to tell the facts and the Japanese Government will have their usual way of rewriting their history.
    What can I say??

    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    We may never know who are the right/left wingers controlling the Japanese Cabinet and never know what is going to happen in future in case they seek to "revenge" just like what Nazi Germans did. How can you be so sure it will not happen again? What if US is not the sole power and then Japan come loose again?
    Well said!
    That's how Sino-Japanese war started!

  18. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    Well, said.
    We are talking about the history that effects the modern world right now. Those history longer than 200 years ago have fewer if not, no impact on modern times now.
    thanks hommie! obviously somebody mindset is still stuck at between gun-powder and industrial age!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazerLordz
    Heh, thats because the main objector would be China and the Chinese who see it her way.
    you are forgetting the koreans. and speaking for myself, primarily from the perspective of a southeast asian victim that happens to be chinese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tokrot
    thanks hommie! obviously somebody mindset is still stuck at between gun-powder and industrial age!
    First off, I don't appreciate the snide comment. I was merely trying to bring a little context into a suffocatingly narrow discussion. If you can't see that, that's your problem.

    Next, aren't you guys being a little arbitrary in defining what is "modern" history that still affects the current political atmosphere? Why 60 years? Why not 10, or 30, or 150? That's the problem you see, you pick and choose only the points that support YOUR worldview. That's what I mean by BALANCE, or rather, the lack of it.

    If we have agreed to disagree, then I'd appreciate some civility.

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