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Thread: Exploitation....

  1. #41
    Senior Member scud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    Isn't it a good thing if your company recognizes your talent? When the going gets tough, who will they lay off - the guy/gal who doesn't move a finger beyond what is written in the contract, or the one that shows some flexibility and is willing to go the extra mile when needed? What goes around comes around ...

    Helping out where necessary goes without saying in other countries and is considered good work attitude. No wonder Singapore needs foreign talent ...
    recognising yr talent and exploitation are 2 different things all together.
    recognition comes with reward, exploitation does not.
    as u have said it, when going gets tough it doesnt matter wheather how far u have gone, u are merely a headcount to the management.
    they too would rather save their head from rolling when situation gets tougher.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    If you don't want to do it, tell your boss and don't do it - but don't make up excuses.

    I voluntarily took photos in the past from company events, and I did my share in organizing and ensuring the smooth running of conferences when requested. I'm pretty sure my past bosses honoured it - I had a lot of freedom in doing my work, and even in tough budget situations, they always carved out funding for extending my contract.
    told them that i wont be doing it.
    no excuse given. stated the fact that equipment needs checkup (or maintainance), $$ to buy batts, wear & tear and so on.
    no need to run away by saying cam loaned out to somebody, taking MC on that day or sent in for servicing. just told them the fact.

    i share the same sentiment with jbma. once u agreed to do it, they will ask u again next year.
    worst, they will appoint u as 'official photog' for every event they organise. when will it ends?

    foreign talent in singapore? these 2 words covers a very wide area. u are generalising whole nation here that we are weak.
    foreign talents are well paid (in general), becoz
    1. not many ppl are good in specific field of specialization
    2. sharing of knowledge by working with them
    btw, not only spore, but many other countries does employ foreign talents.
    we also export our talent overseas, dont u know?
    do not see things from one perspective and draw conclusion from there.

    in this case, if company thinks they need a foreign talent to do the job, they will hire one and hence there is no exploitation.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by scud
    recognising yr talent and exploitation are 2 different things all together.
    recognition comes with reward, exploitation does not.
    You shouldn't limit your notion of "reward" to immediate cash payouts. But if you're that keen on cash, don't forget that going beyond the call of duty may factor in your overall performance appraisal and materialise when it comes to paying bonuses.

    as u have said it, when going gets tough it doesnt matter wheather how far u have gone, u are merely a headcount to the management.
    What field are you working in? Seems like a true sweat shop.

    But again, if you limit your activities to exactly what is spelled out in your contract, you're an interchangeable commodity; why should they care about keeping you if they can hire another robot any time? If you distinguish yourself, you're not as easy to replace ...

    stated the fact that equipment needs checkup (or maintainance), $$ to buy batts, wear & tear and so on.
    Again, I'm not sure what your work environment is like. I've been free to (occasionally) use office and laboratory equipment for my private affairs or pet projects. These things also have (sometimes quite substantial) running costs and are subject to wear and tear, which my employer pays for. In the end, I think both sides gained from this mutual flexibility that wasn't stated in any contract.

    foreign talent in singapore? these 2 words covers a very wide area. u are generalising whole nation here that we are weak.
    I was just being facetious.

    I know there are a lot of flexible, very hard-working Singaporeans. But it's also glaringly obvious that some Singaporeans behave like spoilt primadonnas.

    we also export our talent overseas, dont u know?
    Something tells me that the successful talent Singapore exports is not the talent that whines about exploitation when it comes to trivialities like taking a few photos.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    You mean that my employer does not do that at all? If his/her spouse called up during office hour he/she would off the phone or not take it at all, is it?
    No, but does your employer whine about "exploitation" when s/he puts in more than minimum hours to keep the company afloat?

    I dunno, from where foreign talents came from, their union are strong, they are being protected by rules and laws, hence, the thread 'Exploitation'. We have neither. Btw which part of the world are you referring to or come from??
    In my experience, the power of the unions scales inversely with the skill level of those who they represent. I.e, if you work in a factory at the assembly line or are a municipal waste worker, yes, there may be a strong union to take care of you. On the other hand, professionals are rarely unionised (and in one case I witnessed, an initiative for unionisation was squarely rejected).

    For the record, I've been working in Old Europe and the USA, and I do not fall into the low-skill category.

    You obviously have not have jobs piled up skyhigh and when requested for extra jobs(like take photo during company event) are not given any time off or lesser workload on top of everything you have. You are lucky, your company appreciate the works you put in, a lot do not......
    I would hope that I've not merely been lucky. Good management includes taking care of your employees - in "skilled" professions, motivated and dedicated employees are about the best asset a company can have. I have to admit there are a lot of incapable managers today, just look at what Carly Fiorina did to HP.

    I don't know the motives of your company, but have you considered that photos taken by staff may be more useful for the intended purpose? If it is some kind of feel-good workforce bonding event and your company just wants two or three snapshots to put into the company newsletter or the webpage, a photo taken by a "team member" serves double duty. If people are presented beyond their work duty, e.g. by arranging to show off their hobbies, it gives them more of a personality.

  4. #44
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    I have also been asked many times to do the photography of our events or if some big whizzo comes to visit our labs.....no problem from my side, but for office events I did it only a few times, and later rejected to it as I also wanted to enjoy myself during the action :-). I don't mind being exploited.......

    yes, it is the intention for me that counts, and also I liked doing it, so if you are being exploited who cares?.....its their karma............not your problem

    Hong Sien
    Last edited by hongsien; 23rd March 2005 at 11:18 AM.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    No, but does your employer whine about "exploitation" when s/he puts in more than minimum hours to keep the company afloat?
    You talking about me?? I am an employer having my own businesses. I have been both before. Do I whine about the long hours? Yup, but never to my employee. It(whining) goes sides ways but never down. Frankly, I think with good planning, any managment/workers should not need to work longer than expected hours. Its a utter waste of time to spend many hours in office if the productivity remains the same. As Dell's Singapore head mentioned that he is going back on time, when people asking him if he is going back early at 6:30pm.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    In my experience, the power of the unions scales inversely with the skill level of those who they represent. I.e, if you work in a factory at the assembly line or are a municipal waste worker, yes, there may be a strong union to take care of you. On the other hand, professionals are rarely unionised (and in one case I witnessed, an initiative for unionisation was squarely rejected). For the record, I've been working in Old Europe and the USA, and I do not fall into the low-skill category.
    For your record, the US of A and Old Europe have more robust laws for protecting discriminations against older workers/sex/race/etc. And yes(regarding your previous post on Singapore needing foreign talents), we need foreign talent as much as US, as we both are land of immgrant. America is built by the hands of talents from all over the world.


    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    I would hope that I've not merely been lucky. Good management includes taking care of your employees - in "skilled" professions, motivated and dedicated employees are about the best asset a company can have. I have to admit there are a lot of incapable managers today, just look at what Carly Fiorina did to HP.

    I don't know the motives of your company, but have you considered that photos taken by staff may be more useful for the intended purpose? If it is some kind of feel-good workforce bonding event and your company just wants two or three snapshots to put into the company newsletter or the webpage, a photo taken by a "team member" serves double duty. If people are presented beyond their work duty, e.g. by arranging to show off their hobbies, it gives them more of a personality.
    Can you choose your management when you get into a company? If not then what constitude to having one except for luck when you get into a good one, unless you are the management itself?

    I re-post my question back to you again, do you ever have jobs piled up skyhigh and when requested for extra jobs(like take photo during company event) are not given any time off or lesser workload on top of everything you have.

  6. #46
    Senior Member scud's Avatar
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    guys, let's not get over board. everyone is entitled to their own view,
    hence my thread of exploitation. it is basically up to individual, how
    they see things, how they express their thoughts and how they react to the surroundings.

    i'm cool with LittleWolf's reply.
    it is ok for exchange of views, but dont get personal.
    lets not start a war here. not another one of $2K cash reward part II.
    cheers guys.

  7. #47
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    Suggestion:

    Get CS members to volunteer to do the shoot. I'm sure you'll get tonnes of respondees who will do it for free. You can even get two or three folks with DSLRs!

    Since they don't mind being exploited

    Just don't cry when they don't deliver the photos and demand for $500 for the CD after the event, hehe.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scud
    guys, let's not get over board. everyone is entitled to their own view,
    hence my thread of exploitation. it is basically up to individual, how
    they see things, how they express their thoughts and how they react to the surroundings.

    i'm cool with LittleWolf's reply.
    it is ok for exchange of views, but dont get personal.
    lets not start a war here. not another one of $2K cash reward part II.
    cheers guys.
    Nothing personal, just stating point of views. Disputing views does not mean not respecting other views.

    Cheers!

  9. #49

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    I have been in this situtation once. This was what I did. I told the bosses that there are no gurantees that the photos will turn up excellent since I am no pro. Just in case they say that photos were not well taken. But I assured them that I will take it to the best of my abilitites.

    However I had requested for them to provide the camera cos i lent my camera to someone else for a holiday. They provide the cam, I shoot.

    When it came to post processing, I told them that I will do it but as I was busy with my other work assignments, I could not do it immediately. So if they wanted it asap, they had to factor in the fact that my other work cannot be completed and doing the post processing was at the expense of my usual work. I was not about to use my personal time at night to do it as I believe that since it is a company/department event, I should use office time to do such stuff. In the end, someone else did the post processing. Though the person who did the post poricessing complaint that some photos were blur (I had to take without flash and did not use a tripod) and I took too many of the same shots i told them that I wasn't a pro and they can't expect me to take perfect shots. Bet they won't ask me again. Nothing gain, nothing lost for me at least.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftdragon
    I have been in this situtation once. This was what I did. I told the bosses that there are no gurantees that the photos will turn up excellent since I am no pro. Just in case they say that photos were not well taken. But I assured them that I will take it to the best of my abilitites.

    However I had requested for them to provide the camera cos i lent my camera to someone else for a holiday. They provide the cam, I shoot.

    When it came to post processing, I told them that I will do it but as I was busy with my other work assignments, I could not do it immediately. So if they wanted it asap, they had to factor in the fact that my other work cannot be completed and doing the post processing was at the expense of my usual work. I was not about to use my personal time at night to do it as I believe that since it is a company/department event, I should use office time to do such stuff. In the end, someone else did the post processing. Though the person who did the post poricessing complaint that some photos were blur (I had to take without flash and did not use a tripod) and I took too many of the same shots i told them that I wasn't a pro and they can't expect me to take perfect shots. Bet they won't ask me again. Nothing gain, nothing lost for me at least.

    That seems fair enough.
    We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. - Oscar Wilde

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hommie
    You talking about me?? I am an employer having my own businesses. I have been both before. Do I whine about the long hours? Yup, but never to my employee.
    Presumably you don't whine about "exploitation" on online forums either if you occasionally have to chip in a bit more time than usual. I just think the use of the term "exploitation" goes way too far.

    Frankly, I think with good planning, any managment/workers should not need to work longer than expected hours.
    Not on average, but workload may fluctuate over time. I don't think the local head of Dell would refuse to participate in company functions if they are not on on a regular workday between 8am and 6 pm or complain about exploitation.

    For your record, the US of A and Old Europe have more robust laws for protecting discriminations against older workers/sex/race/etc.
    I'm not familiar enough with these laws to comment. However, in Old Europe at least, it can be extremely difficult for people in their 40s or above to find a job, even if they're highly qualified and have extensive relevant work experience.

    And yes(regarding your previous post on Singapore needing foreign talents), we need foreign talent as much as US, as we both are land of immgrant.
    In the US and probably also in Singapore, part of the reason why foreign talent is in demand is that the locals tend to restrict their career goals to a small, fashionable subset of professions.

    Can you choose your management when you get into a company? If not then what constitude to having one except for luck when you get into a good one, unless you are the management itself?
    Unless you're desparate, you have a bit of a choice which company to work for. When you go to a job interview, it's not only so that the company can find out more about you, but also so you can find out more about the company.

    I re-post my question back to you again, do you ever have jobs piled up skyhigh and when requested for extra jobs(like take photo during company event) are not given any time off or lesser workload on top of everything you have.
    Every now and then, I'm fairly stressed out under increased workload. I've never been explicitly "given" time off for that, but it was never a problem to take it informally. I may gripe in private when I feel stressed, but I don't decry in public how exploited I am.

    No ill feelings,

    LittleWolf

  12. #52
    Senior Member Hommie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    Presumably you don't whine about "exploitation" on online forums either if you occasionally have to chip in a bit more time than usual. I just think the use of the term "exploitation" goes way too far.
    It freedom of choice where anyone want to post their "exploitation" online or with friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    Not on average, but workload may fluctuate over time. I don't think the local head of Dell would refuse to participate in company functions if they are not on on a regular workday between 8am and 6 pm or complain about exploitation.
    Its written on the Digital Life, go read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    I'm not familiar enough with these laws to comment. However, in Old Europe at least, it can be extremely difficult for people in their 40s or above to find a job, even if they're highly qualified and have extensive relevant work experience.
    Happening everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    In the US and probably also in Singapore, part of the reason why foreign talent is in demand is that the locals tend to restrict their career goals to a small, fashionable subset of professions.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    Unless you're desparate, you have a bit of a choice which company to work for. When you go to a job interview, it's not only so that the company can find out more about you, but also so you can find out more about the company.
    A lot of desparate jobless people out there including my friends. Very little choice but to put up on the issue mentioned here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleWolf
    Every now and then, I'm fairly stressed out under increased workload. I've never been explicitly "given" time off for that, but it was never a problem to take it informally. I may gripe in private when I feel stressed, but I don't decry in public how exploited I am.

    No ill feelings,

    LittleWolf
    Non taken.

    There are friends of mine who are swamped by worked alone on heavy OTing let alone having more on their hands.

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