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Thread: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

  1. #21
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cursor View Post
    Just out of curiosity. When the pro were just starting out their photo biz. When they are still nobody, not much portfolio. How do they start? How much will they charge? Cos if a "nobody" photographer come with small portfolio or even with a very good portfolio (cos not sure if his own works). I will also think twice when he trying to charge a pro pricing. esp when Google him and nothing come out. I would rather use that money to pay a real pro to do the job.
    No portfolio no job, sound like a catch 22 situation isn't it?

    before you think about being pro, think about this first;

    what is your goal in your life?

    what is your vision in your life?

    what you intend to life?

    can you achieve this by doing photography?


    and if the answer is yes, ask this again
    do you intend to make this as living ?

    are you already technically sound on your photography? able to produce decent work?
    how much efforts you intend to put in?
    are you willing to work super long hours....... day after day, weeks after weeks, year after year?

    if you have all the answers for these questions, you probably already know what to do next.




    lastly, talk is easy, and talk with no action is meaningless

    and doing anything without setting goals, direction, is also meaningless
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  2. #22
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    any secondary students who study commerce and accounting know the purpose of doing business is generate profit,

    revenue come from providing goods and services,

    gross profit come from revenue minus cost of goods,

    net profit come from gross profit minus cost of expenses.


    so what is your cost of expenses?

    there are many, some already mention by wakaowalao,
    and how many of know depreciation of all your gears, maintaining of all your gears is also part of the operating cost?
    do you people know your salary is also an operating cost?


    like it or not, the cost is always there, whether you have or don't have any assignments.

    if you don't factor the cost does not mean you will be more profitable, is just that you are losing more money without knowing it

    so it is very silly to think that students will able to make more profit because their expenses is lower, they do have all cost but it is paid by dad mum school and the government.




    take this $100 assignment for an example,

    there is noting for photographer to cover all the expenses, if fact just photographer is sponsoring all these people.

    and don't forget the photographer is also given all the rights of the photos to them, in exchange for the experiences of being exploited and maybe portfolio(?)

    btw the $15 for the meal is allowance, not salary or profit.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  3. #23

    Default

    someone is offering FREE photography service in the photography service directory because he wants to build his portfolio.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RhysCheng View Post
    someone is offering FREE photography service in the photography service directory because he wants to build his portfolio.
    this one http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/photo...condition.html ?

  5. #25

  6. #26
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    the purpose of this thread is to educate our young photographers who are interested to learn more about photography business,

    imposing any rules to stop cheapo customers for trying their luck here or our photographers going around offering services for cheap or free is not practical.


    firstly, this is a real life situation, photographers should learn and train how to handle customers who try to take advantage on them.

    secondly, even customers state is a paid assignment, some photographers will still contact customers to offer free services or charge super cheap in order to land the assignment.



    thou we are like singing a broken record and nobody likes it, but as you can see young photographers come and go, we will still have to bring this up from time to time, for the good of photography community.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  7. #27

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    There is no issue with doing a couple of free shoots to gain portfolio to start with.

    But the key is to know what you want and make sure you put all the terms on contract and select your clients.

    If I was the one who is to build a wedding portfolio, I will select bride and groom that looks really good, meet up with them and talk to them regarding to their wedding. If it is what I want, hey, do it for free in exchange for portfolio. There is no issue in this one.

    Be very selective and don't just offer free shoot.

    I do offer free shoots from time to time if I want to develop certain thing that is new and I could not take risk with my clients. This is a common things that establish photographer do. Sometimes, we even pay for model to get things done the way we want it. This is call investment.

    Better still, find someone who you really look up to, ask them nicely if they can take you to their shoot. Be nice and be sincere and I am sure establish photographer don't mind let you tag along if you could give them a good reason to have you there. Learning photography and liking photography is not a good enough reason, at least not to me. Please don't just email every photographers under the sun to tag along and be specific.

    Regards,

    Hart
    Last edited by Agetan; 16th January 2013 at 10:30 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cursor View Post
    Just out of curiosity. When the pro were just starting out their photo biz. When they are still nobody, not much portfolio. How do they start? How much will they charge? Cos if a "nobody" photographer come with small portfolio or even with a very good portfolio (cos not sure if his own works). I will also think twice when he trying to charge a pro pricing. esp when Google him and nothing come out. I would rather use that money to pay a real pro to do the job.
    I used a car branding analogy before in another thread but another way of explaining is: brand building.

    Your young brand is like a baby very fragile and delicate it gets damaged too easily when poor decisions are made with the common fatal one being entering the industry at the 1) wrong time and 2) wrong position.

    1) Wrong time is when you are not competence. Not competence stuns your confidence for charging a substainable rate. And simply clients do not return to or recommend your poor work or service. Too many people are incompetent yet want to do this line. Misguided by technology maybe. Charging a low price does not resolve the incompetency problem BUT resolving the incompetency issue MIGHT resolve the price problem.

    2) Wrong positioning is a bigger problem. It means charging above or beneath your worth. (Do not confuse with if you are not good you can charge low, if you arent good you should not be in the pro scene at all) If you are good but charging 'budget' prices, or vice versa, your brand hurts and get damaged. The wise move is to cut your loses and start over, even if it means losing all your past budget clients and leads. Just like in investing money. But problem is many people are stubborn, fearful or too smart.

    Good photogrs are also good biz people who constantly reevaluates their position and progress and be responsibile to their own business. Splurging on the latest lens is not responsible investing, the same $3000 could get you a set a decent clothes to meet clients, a pro .com website, online advertising and restaurant lunches with ten good business prospects, with change to spare to buy a self improvement book about sales.
    Last edited by JasonB; 16th January 2013 at 11:09 AM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    What's there to talk when got people like this

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/photo...condition.html


    oops. someone already posted few post up. my bad
    Last edited by eleveninth; 16th January 2013 at 12:02 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by eleveninth View Post
    What's there to talk when got people like this

    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/photo...condition.html

  11. #31

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    the purpose of this thread is to educate our young photographers who are interested to learn more about photography business,

    imposing any rules to stop cheapo customers for trying their luck here or our photographers going around offering services for cheap or free is not practical.


    firstly, this is a real life situation, photographers should learn and train how to handle customers who try to take advantage on them.

    secondly, even customers state is a paid assignment, some photographers will still contact customers to offer free services or charge super cheap in order to land the assignment.



    thou we are like singing a broken record and nobody likes it, but as you can see young photographers come and go, we will still have to bring this up from time to time, for the good of photography community.

    Exactly! While some others kept saying what's the point blah blah blah... Well, if every member have the same thinking, CS will definitely becomes a permanent pest-breeding home for all cheapos/freebos in the very end.

    If one don't bother, leave this forum and also bring all self-promoting-cheap or FREE services elsewhere because to me, CS is simply not the place for these cheap-supply-cheaper-demand bullshit!
    Inferiority Complex Behavior Signature: A900.D3x.M9..I have this and that blah blah...

  12. #32

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    As for that desperate free-promoting chap, I really wonder why he can't offer his "help" to his friends instead but openly offering free services in a public forum??? WTF.
    Inferiority Complex Behavior Signature: A900.D3x.M9..I have this and that blah blah...

  13. #33
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    Default

    So may I ask..

    What is a reasonable per hr rate for a reasonable photographer, who can deliver standard angles, correctly exposed and not blurred photos, all soft copies on dvd in 1-2wks delivery.

    Pls answer, else no point in talking so much..lol

  14. #34
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by saberlancer View Post
    So may I ask..

    What is a reasonable per hr rate for a reasonable photographer, who can deliver standard angles, correctly exposed and not blurred photos, all soft copies on dvd in 1-2wks delivery.

    Pls answer, else no point in talking so much..lol
    you have to find out what is your own rate that you able to sustain your business,

    many people just simply copy and paste from other photographers' websites, which usually not able to work out in the end


    Photography Pricing: How To Find a Reasonable Rate ‹ PhotoShelter Blog
    Last edited by catchlights; 16th January 2013 at 08:17 PM.
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  15. #35
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    One of the sticky thread in this section written by shinken


    http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/photo...otography.html
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  16. #36

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Hi, All.

    The purpose for "Services Wanted" is to facilitate the purpose of "Post in this section if you are looking for photography-related services."

    A person looking for budget photographers can come to this section and "advertise" their requirements without the need to do much work since they just put up a post and alot of people will answer to it.

    There are already sections that cater to promote "Photographers" and "Commerical Services" in "Photography Services Directory" and "Commercial Services Offered" section. Regardless of whether the person is looking for budget photographers or pro photographers, they can contact the respective photographers or services provider thru the contact information from the posting in the relevant section.

    Therefore I do not see a need for this section. There is a search function available in Clubsnap to look for specific keywords to narrow their search results should they need to locate the photographer or service provider.

    In addition, it will also require serious photographers or service providers (irregardless of part-time, hobbist and full time) to post in the respective directory to advertise their work. This will require them to think about how to market themselves in the posting to attract the customers they want.

    I understand that there are photographers, MUA, Stylist and model starting out who wishes to build their portfolio. They will need to start somewhere to build up their portfolio. Perhaps a "Request for Collaboration" section can be created dedicated to help budding photographers, MUA, Stylist and model to build their portfolio by advertising project for collaboration. When the photographer or service provider have something to show, they will have confidence to ask for appropriate compensation for their works. Promoting collaboration also helps to build relationship among photographers, MUA, models and Stylist.

    Just my 1 cent opinion on this topic.

    Benjamin.

  17. #37

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by ywtan9 View Post
    Hi, All.

    The purpose for "Services Wanted" is to facilitate the purpose of "Post in this section if you are looking for photography-related services."

    A person looking for budget photographers can come to this section and "advertise" their requirements without the need to do much work since they just put up a post and alot of people will answer to it.

    There are already sections that cater to promote "Photographers" and "Commerical Services" in "Photography Services Directory" and "Commercial Services Offered" section. Regardless of whether the person is looking for budget photographers or pro photographers, they can contact the respective photographers or services provider thru the contact information from the posting in the relevant section.

    Therefore I do not see a need for this section. There is a search function available in Clubsnap to look for specific keywords to narrow their search results should they need to locate the photographer or service provider.

    In addition, it will also require serious photographers or service providers (irregardless of part-time, hobbist and full time) to post in the respective directory to advertise their work. This will require them to think about how to market themselves in the posting to attract the customers they want.

    I understand that there are photographers, MUA, Stylist and model starting out who wishes to build their portfolio. They will need to start somewhere to build up their portfolio. Perhaps a "Request for Collaboration" section can be created dedicated to help budding photographers, MUA, Stylist and model to build their portfolio by advertising project for collaboration. When the photographer or service provider have something to show, they will have confidence to ask for appropriate compensation for their works. Promoting collaboration also helps to build relationship among photographers, MUA, models and Stylist.

    Just my 1 cent opinion on this topic.

    Benjamin.

    Don't small see the built relationship , its way more important than you think

  18. #38

    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by wakaowalao View Post
    As for that desperate free-promoting chap, I really wonder why he can't offer his "help" to his friends instead but openly offering free services in a public forum??? WTF.
    That's a good question. The nasty possible answer is that they do not want to do this, but lack the 2 to say I cannot do this for that price. Sooo they need a substitute; some one eager enough to do it for next to nothing. Actually for those so eager to shoot for portfolio, if it is event type work - just look around there are some many public events - turn up early and cover it like an assignment. Being the official shooter gets you no extra passes.

    I just love the popular reasons "giving back to the photographic community" , "helping you build your portfolio", "creating an opportunity", "...for exposure"
    So men in white style of thinking and speaking. most people can see a con when its that obvious calling it some thing else does not hide what it actually is.

  19. #39

    Default

    Not forgetting the once popular TF for every f**k **** crappy freebos...
    Inferiority Complex Behavior Signature: A900.D3x.M9..I have this and that blah blah...

  20. #40
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    Default Re: What do you think about being a Budget photographer?

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    you have to find out what is your own rate that you able to sustain your business,

    many people just simply copy and paste from other photographers' websites, which usually not able to work out in the end


    Photography Pricing: How To Find a Reasonable Rate ‹ PhotoShelter Blog
    But isnt that the issue here? That even you are unable to say whats a reasonable standard rate. Then how to say what is low!? You realize the contradiction here?

    They HAVE found out their own rate, and its NOT to sustain a biz or even to feed a family etc, often just for xtra pocket $$ which they're happy to do at ANY rate! AND so its reasonable to them.

    This is how things work.
    If we agree an average packet of chicken rice is say $2.50. THEN we can say someone selling $1.50 is low and 'no backbone' whatever..
    BUT! you must be able to 1st say whats the average mkt price that taste reasonable!, not debate whether $1.50 is enough for that stall.
    Else there is NO BASIS FOR COMPARISION!

    Erm, do you get the point here..?

    er hope I dnt kanna banned lol , just discussion..
    Last edited by saberlancer; 17th January 2013 at 05:11 AM.

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