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Thread: How to stop expolitation

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by eric69
    ... ... If you are that good, people will engage you for countless fee. ... ...


    Not exactly true.
    There are a lot of freeloaders around, especially in Singapore. Where else can u see a mountain on a buffet plate?

    It's the mentality that needs to be changed.


    .

  2. #42
    Senior Member poohbear's Avatar
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    posted in the other thread ..

    Just my 2 cents ,

    To the Mods - Is it possible to have an addition forum for those looking for PA , back-up photographer etc .. it will be another channel for those who are trying to learn the trade , gain some experience . Oh the other hand , photographer will not be undercut by those who took up the job just to gain exposure and experience . Problem with exploitation cases is that they know pple want to take up free job to build up their portfolio . The pros can educate people by imparting the necessary skills and teaching them the practice in the industry . It will be difficult initially but on the long run , it's going to benefit everybody , be it professionals or hobbyist .
    Last edited by poohbear; 19th February 2005 at 05:21 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by AReality
    Not exactly true.
    There are a lot of freeloaders around, especially in Singapore. Where else can u see a mountain on a buffet plate?

    It's the mentality that needs to be changed..
    As I said, if you are good, people will pay your price. If you have to bargain with clients on your fee, then obivous you are not there yet. If you are willing to do free photography, it's not explolition. Organisations that engage free photographers know they can't expect anything from them if the results don't turn out good. On the other hand, photographers who expect to be paid will have to take the risk to compensate for damage if they can't deliver.

    When I was younger, I used to take up free photography jobs. I screwed up quite abit, and I was not expected to compensate the organisation. Come on, you can't have your cake and eat it i.e get paid and yet don't wanna take responsibilities.
    Last edited by eric69; 19th February 2005 at 05:12 PM.

  4. #44
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    I would suggest that the best way for a newbie to learn is by following a Pro photographer who has won your respect in the way he does his shoot.

    Being a pro is not only about taking good photos, being able to take good photos can be learnt from books, shooting and self analysis. Being able to see the pro at work, how he conducts the shoot, what he looks for, choice of lens, workflow, PR with clients, blah blah blah.

    I myself have offered to be an asistant to another CS member on his shoot, I just want to view him at work and hopefully learn a thing or two. I even offered to carry bags/tripod....

    SO! by giving free service the newbie is only spoiling the market for the pros and the pros to be. So eventually if this newbie decides to go pro there is already no more market for him to go into. DON'T kill the market for everyone.

    I have seen a post where a pro was willing to allow a newbie to tag along and learn from him at no cost. He will not use the photographs shot by the newbie. Maybe later after the shoot the pro can critique the photos of the newbie, to me this is the best way to learn.

    To cut a long story short, I SUPPORT THIS CAUSE (I am not a pro)
    We as a community need to address this exploitation.
    Cheers and keep shooting.

  5. #45
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    hmm nice idea ortega...

    btw ortega, i wish to learn from you the no need see shoot style shooting... something like the kill bill 5 point exploding heart technique...
    Logging Off. "You have 2,631 messages stored, of a total 400 allowed." don't PM me.

  6. #46
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    meet up and I will tell you everything I know over coffee.
    I don't kow the 5 point exploding heart technique, maybe you can teach me that.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    I would suggest that the best way for a newbie to learn is by following a Pro photographer who has won your respect in the way he does his shoot.

    Being a pro is not only about taking good photos, being able to take good photos can be learnt from books, shooting and self analysis. Being able to see the pro at work, how he conducts the shoot, what he looks for, choice of lens, workflow, PR with clients, blah blah blah.

    I myself have offered to be an asistant to another CS member on his shoot, I just want to view him at work and hopefully learn a thing or two. I even offered to carry bags/tripod....
    u not pro meh? i've been mugging lots of stuff from you leh

    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    SO! by giving free service the newbie is only spoiling the market for the pros and the pros to be. So eventually if this newbie decides to go pro there is already no more market for him to go into. DON'T kill the market for everyone.

    I have seen a post where a pro was willing to allow a newbie to tag along and learn from him at no cost. He will not use the photographs shot by the newbie. Maybe later after the shoot the pro can critique the photos of the newbie, to me this is the best way to learn.

    To cut a long story short, I SUPPORT THIS CAUSE (I am not a pro)
    We as a community need to address this exploitation.
    Cheers and keep shooting.
    agree, shouldn't let exploitation of the photography profession continue ... shouldn't let exploitation of creative professionals continue also ... pay peanuts, get monkeys

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by eikin
    u not pro meh? i've been mugging lots of stuff from you leh
    Nope, not a pro, my profession is not in this line.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by eikin
    agree, shouldn't let exploitation of the photography profession continue ... shouldn't let exploitation of creative professionals continue also ... pay peanuts, get monkeys
    Too bad the photography is a very elastic profession. The entry barriers have been lowered and made easier with digital technology.

    Also, there are a lot of people out there not really concerned about "quality" per se.... at least from my POV, they only want someone to record the event...printing no larger than 4R from the photo labs.... for such there's no need for expensive setups that the pros need to pay for.
    Gallery | Facebook Page Spreading the Good photography.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Sion's Avatar
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    I think this thread should be " How to be avoid exploitation?".

    If an event organiser knows he/she could source free photographers, they would order another course of shark fin soup instead of budgeting for a photographer's fees.

    Now who is to blame?

    Demand for Free Photography and No Suppy = No Free Photography

    Demand of Free Photography and Sufficient Supply = Free Photography

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    Nope, not a pro, my profession is not in this line.
    You are not a pro but shoots like a pro!

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    meet up and I will tell you everything I know over coffee.
    I don't kow the 5 point exploding heart technique, maybe you can teach me that.
    Wah that name/term sounds like some kungfu/wuxia movie. 5 point exploding heart technique! Sorry man, just can't help it.

    If you want him to teach you that, you must kowtow 3 times and serve him tea before you're accepted as a student.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by eric69
    As I said, if you are good, people will pay your price. If you have to bargain with clients on your fee, then obivous you are not there yet. If you are willing to do free photography, it's not explolition. Organisations that engage free photographers know they can't expect anything from them if the results don't turn out good. On the other hand, photographers who expect to be paid will have to take the risk to compensate for damage if they can't deliver.

    When I was younger, I used to take up free photography jobs. I screwed up quite abit, and I was not expected to compensate the organisation. Come on, you can't have your cake and eat it i.e get paid and yet don't wanna take responsibilities.
    Nobody will stop you from shooting for free if you approach them or become WILLING parties. When I say "approach" means that you already know them in hand and it's not being advertise in the market. When someone advertise something and request to shoot for free. That's exploitation.

    The problem started off with someone approach CS members and stated that the company has no budget to pay the photographer. A company who has a budget to spend D&D in ORCHARD area with some artiste shows that the company some how is doing quite ok. But not a single cent is paid and wanted to keep the negatives? No way....

    There are always people out there knows that there are plenty of new and fresh photographers. Some quite desperate....but no matter how desperate, they must still pay you.

    Responsibility and getting screw is another area which is totally not related in exploitation. Hey if you are really lousy, somehow a normal person will be able to tell your samples are up to standard. They will not even hire you even you offer the service for free.

    If a photographer who has no confidence, then don't do it especially paid jobs. Simply by spoiling their names in the market will be enough to discourage them from doing it.

    Bargaining is something of a norm in marketing. Expecially if you are freelancer, there is never a fix price. There is a guide line of course. No matter how good you maybe, people always love to bargain. If they think you are too expensive, they will not hire you. Simple as that.

  14. #54
    Moderator ortega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    You are not a pro but shoots like a pro!
    Just lucky, I guess.
    Hmmm... must be because of the camera,
    I am just the monkey who press the button.

    So when shall we meet up for coffee?

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    Quote Originally Posted by afbug
    Wah that name/term sounds like some kungfu/wuxia movie. 5 point exploding heart technique! Sorry man, just can't help it.

    If you want him to teach you that, you must kowtow 3 times and serve him tea before you're accepted as a student.
    Wah if he can trach me that skill, I don't mind man.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    I think you did not get what I meant. What I am trying to say is not just an assistant carrying a reflector. If you are talking about that, it's more to commercial form.

    What I am trying to say is a secondary photographers. This is the best way to LEARN, GET PAID, GET RECOGNISE.

    It is not a form of exploitation. When I take somebody in to a shoot, I am giving him every opportunity to gain that valuable experience but I am not threaten that he will take my rice bowl away. This is one of the best ways to learn, shoot and get paid.

    And you will be surprise the amount of people PM me to ask for assistant jobs. I never believe in exploiting them as they are being paid as well as learning the process. They are not being paid like $10.00 but at least $80-$100 plus I will let my client know that this photos are not only photograph by me only.

    Do not forget that when you are learning, you have to pay. Instead of taking their money, I am giving them money to learn!
    Carrying stuff is assutant mah.. Being a 2nd photographer is also assistant.

    My point is a way for PRO to discourage people shooting for free is to engage them as assistant.

    But the problem is as you put it.. You are giving him a chance to learn, so he might not be paid. But if he's not paid, others might accuse the PRO of exploiting.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    Carrying stuff is assutant mah.. Being a 2nd photographer is also assistant.

    My point is a way for PRO to discourage people shooting for free is to engage them as assistant.

    But the problem is as you put it.. You are giving him a chance to learn, so he might not be paid. But if he's not paid, others might accuse the PRO of exploiting.
    if the "assistant" pays for some knowledge imparted by the pro by kind is not exploitation. it is cheap photography lesson.

    it is no different from he/she paying to attend a class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ortega
    if the "assistant" pays for some knowledge imparted by the pro by kind is not exploitation. it is cheap photography lesson.

    it is no different from he/she paying to attend a class.
    But problem is the pro is working.. have time to teach? If assistant dun understand a certain setting, can ask him? Will he get black face by the pro?

    The only thing the assistant definately can learn is how the pro conduct himsalf during the shoot.

    In class, it's different. You get to ask all the question you want and have all the time to do hands-on.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    But problem is the pro is working.. have time to teach? If assistant dun understand a certain setting, can ask him? Will he get black face by the pro?

    The only thing the assistant definately can learn is how the pro conduct himsalf during the shoot.

    In class, it's different. You get to ask all the question you want and have all the time to do hands-on.
    How to conduct himself durng a shoot is also a very important lesson.
    A lesson that no class can teach. Because each situation is very different.
    After the shoot has finished can have critique session.
    How that shot could have been better.
    Since the PRO was there shooting the same thing under the same circumstances,
    his advice would be much better that if the assistant post the picture
    here for critique.
    Like what we have in the gallery, I have learnt lots from there.
    Learn from my own mistakes and from other peoples mistakes.
    Also introduce new ways of seeing.
    That I think is the most important lesson.

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