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Thread: How to stop expolitation

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    I would not think so.

    First, is you get hands on experience with a pro.

    Second, is that your work is being acknowlegde. Which means you may have more jobs in the future

    Third, is your not being exploited for FREE as you are bring paid. Not just ang pows, dinner and transport as your monetary. But if you do get paid, transport and dinner allowance is not covered!

    Forth, if your work is good the company will purchase the negatives or digital images from you. Which means more $$$ for you.

    Fifth, a professional photographer will still pay as he is assisting him. Assistants are paid at least $80-$100 per day. Better than working in McDonalds a day.

    So you still want to become an assistant photographer?

    Actually, I do not want to be an assistant. :P Just thinking of ways to help both party.

    You never see thread asking for free assistant in here before? Some are even requested NOT to bring their own camera to shoot. Just there to help carry the reflector.

    What I meant by exploited for assistant is similar to the famous incident discussed.

    Looking for assistant,
    1. You get hands on experience with a well-known photographer.
    2. You help will be acknowledged. (binbeto is the kind assistant for this shot)
    3. You will be given food and drinks in the event. Ang pao will depends on your luck.
    4. You are not allow to keep or use any image. DUN bring your own camera/CF card/film.
    5. Low budget, no pay will be given or discussed.

    To some, considered exploition.. To some, good lobang.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    i be backing you up on this as well, so flame me. Once you have a constent flow of business, you find ways and means to improve your services and craft (i certainly do) and i take pride in my services. So i cannot tolerate commercial organizations wanting to take what i build up over time for nothing. Money is also a means to motivate me to improve and offer a higher and better service to those whom just started.
    Woah! I definately agree with you on this! $$$$$$ is a really great motivation of get the L/VR lens, sports car and house of your dreams too.

    Get paid to recognize your work.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    Actually, I do not want to be an assistant. :P Just thinking of ways to help both party.

    You never see thread asking for free assistant in here before? Some are even requested NOT to bring their own camera to shoot. Just there to help carry the reflector.

    What I meant by exploited for assistant is similar to the famous incident discussed.

    Looking for assistant,
    1. You get hands on experience with a well-known photographer.
    2. You help will be acknowledged. (binbeto is the kind assistant for this shot)
    3. You will be given food and drinks in the event. Ang pao will depends on your luck.
    4. You are not allow to keep or use any image. DUN bring your own camera/CF card/film.
    5. Low budget, no pay will be given or discussed.

    To some, considered exploition.. To some, good lobang.


    Actually for clause 4) the reason why sometimes assistants' cameras are discouraged is simply due to the fact that it distract from the main camera

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    Woah! I definately agree with you on this! $$$$$$ is a really great motivation of get the L/VR lens, sports car and house of your dreams too.

    Get paid to recognize your work.

    lens i dun want, i want lots of $$$$ to buy my G5 desktop, photoshop9 etc, buy SKii miricale water for my wife, drive a car, pao bigger angpao to my parents and grandmother. Make ppl around me happy and healthy and most of all

    JOB SATISFACTION! when my client face lit up and say WOW great pictures!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    Actually, I do not want to be an assistant. :P Just thinking of ways to help both party.

    You never see thread asking for free assistant in here before? Some are even requested NOT to bring their own camera to shoot. Just there to help carry the reflector.

    What I meant by exploited for assistant is similar to the famous incident discussed.

    Looking for assistant,
    1. You get hands on experience with a well-known photographer.
    2. You help will be acknowledged. (binbeto is the kind assistant for this shot)
    3. You will be given food and drinks in the event. Ang pao will depends on your luck.
    4. You are not allow to keep or use any image. DUN bring your own camera/CF crad/film.
    5. Low budget, no pay will be given or discussed.

    To some, considered exploition.. To some, good lobang.
    I think you did not get what I meant. What I am trying to say is not just an assistant carrying a reflector. If you are talking about that, it's more to commercial form.

    What I am trying to say is a secondary photographers. This is the best way to LEARN, GET PAID, GET RECOGNISE.

    It is not a form of exploitation. When I take somebody in to a shoot, I am giving him every opportunity to gain that valuable experience but I am not threaten that he will take my rice bowl away. This is one of the best ways to learn, shoot and get paid.

    And you will be surprise the amount of people PM me to ask for assistant jobs. I never believe in exploiting them as they are being paid as well as learning the process. They are not being paid like $10.00 but at least $80-$100 plus I will let my client know that this photos are not only photograph by me only.

    Do not forget that when you are learning, you have to pay. Instead of taking their money, I am giving them money to learn!

    Ron, if you have a good understading with the second photographer it will not cause a distraction.

  6. #26
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    Anywayz,

    just a few advices for those who are still considering this line -

    1) If you think you can do it (ie: taking photographes that you can charge money for), don't do it.

    2) If you know you can do it, do it with pride that it's your work. Charge them for it, even a minimal to start.

    3) When you can do it, charge them the standard rate in the market and help upkeep the market rate around.

    4) Always, always, always have your terms and conditions with the other party down in Black and White. Verbal contract is as light as air and as cheap as daily battering.

    5) If you are doing it for money, then this line is seriously not for you coz it's really about your passion, not about the money. Learn to refuse jobs that's obviously exploiting your talents (read: dun sell yourself cheap), time, investments...blah blah blah

    6) If you have to start somewhere, start with a photographic course and build from there

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    Anywayz,

    just a few advices for those who are still considering this line -

    1) If you think you can do it (ie: taking photographes that you can charge money for), don't do it.

    2) If you know you can do it, do it with pride that it's your work. Charge them for it, even a minimal to start.

    3) When you can do it, charge them the standard rate in the market and help upkeep the market rate around.

    4) Always, always, always have your terms and conditions with the other party down in Black and White. Verbal contract is as light as air and as cheap as daily battering.

    5) If you are doing it for money, then this line is seriously not for you coz it's really about your passion, not about the money. Learn to refuse jobs that's obviously exploiting your talents (read: dun sell yourself cheap), time, investments...blah blah blah

    6) If you have to start somewhere, start with a photographic course and build from there
    Sounds really good to me........

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    I think you did not get what I meant. What I am trying to say is not just an assistant carrying a reflector. If you are talking about that, it's more to commercial form.

    What I am trying to say is a secondary photographers. This is the best way to LEARN, GET PAID, GET RECOGNISE.

    It is not a form of exploitation. When I take somebody in to a shoot, I am giving him every opportunity to gain that valuable experience but I am not threaten that he will take my rice bowl away. This is one of the best ways to learn, shoot and get paid.

    And you will be surprise the amount of people PM me to ask for assistant jobs. I never believe in exploiting them as they are being paid as well as learning the process. They are not being paid like $10.00 but at least $80-$100 plus I will let my client know that this photos are not only photograph by me only.

    Do not forget that when you are learning, you have to pay. Instead of taking their money, I am giving them money to learn!

    Ron, if you have a good understading with the second photographer it will not cause a distraction.

    ahh true. That's why I mentioned "sometimes" and not "all the time". Did get this a feedback once from a client while shooting outdoors. "Too many cameras.. see already also blur. Which one to look?" hahhahaa....

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    ........

    JOB SATISFACTION! when my client face lit up and say WOW great pictures!

    Yeah.... this is one of the job perks to know tht you have done a good job and was appreciated for it

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    ahh true. That's why I mentioned "sometimes" and not "all the time". Did get this a feedback once from a client while shooting outdoors. "Too many cameras.. see already also blur. Which one to look?" hahhahaa....
    no lar...only weddings and D&D that I will sometimes call for another newbie photographer who wants to learn the tricks and trade. Anyway, there is only 2 photographers. I will never hire a third one. Of course I will mentioned this to my client first before we agree to the terms and conditions.

    anyway how's life?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image

    anyway how's life?
    OT-ing liao loh.. but what the heck... hehhee

    Life's good and busy. Going commercial and travelling these days. How's you my fren?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    OT-ing liao loh.. but what the heck... hehhee

    Life's good and busy. Going commercial and travelling these days. How's you my fren?
    Okie lar. At least I am not being exploited......

    Are you coming this Tuesday for the Free Workshop?

    Just out of curiousity......skyestang post have disappered!!!!!

    I guess the Admins and Mods must be discussing on whether to take it out or put it in again......

  13. #33
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    hahaha... coz it has erupted into a debate of who's right and who's wrong when the originator's intent was to highlight that there is unfairness in the deal. Ohh well... difficult job the Mods have


    Me... hmmm... din notice much of the forums. What workshop? If I free I will pop down. Who's coming? Robert and Erica leh?

  14. #34

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    I doubt there’s very much we can do about the “exploitation”. Digital cameras have made photography much more accessible to the masses. Hence such copyright disputes are going to be more commonplace.

    IMHO, educating photographers about copyrights and its implications is the only practical way to protect the art, and to reduce “exploitation” by ignorant people (ie whose think all it takes to produce a good image is to “say cheese and use flash”).

    Perhaps CS as a group, could ask the Intellectual Property Office of Singapore to organize a talk regarding photography copyright protection. (See http://www.ipos.gov.sg/main/oursvcs/iperc/intro.html)

    With so much discussion about copyrights, I’m sure a lot of people will be interested to attend.

  15. #35

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    PS: Sorry if this is not relevant to the thread. Just want to add that I'm willing to work as a part-time assistant if anyone needs one. I just want to learn from the professionals.
    Cheers, Hobbes

  16. #36

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    I'd like to add another point of view here that's not related to event photography
    a lot of magazines overseas run based on submissions and do not pay people
    personally I work with makeup artists, stylists and hairstylists based on a trade for print basis, we put in each of our time and collaborate for free to create images
    I have worked as an assistant with some photographers, and have not been paid by it. Bringing your own camera is a big NO
    being an assistant means doing menial things like carrying bags sometimes. if you believe in the photographer's work you can learn alot from the photographer just by doing these things for free for a start

    Here's a suggestion regarding the companies looking for free photography
    A photographer always owns the rights to his images, so you shouldn't be giving negatives away ever, unless you're being given money
    If you're treating it as a way to gain experience, you should work on a situation where you sell the rights to your images even though you provide the service of actually taking the photo free. That way, the client can choose the photos and pay a certain amount if he likes a photo, and this amount must be gauged on how it's going to be used (in a newsletter, or in an advertisement?). If your photography sucks, he doesn't have to buy anything

    PERSONALLY THIS IS WHAT I SUGGEST
    next time any company asks for free service, a few of you guys gang up,send in a great portfolio, and on the job itself do REALLY REALLY CRAPPY WORK
    and then tell the person "well, this is the work I did, you get what you pay for"
    I think there's a lack of appreciation of the difficulty of actually getting good photographs, so maybe this is a good path to take

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperD
    hahaha... coz it has erupted into a debate of who's right and who's wrong when the originator's intent was to highlight that there is unfairness in the deal. Ohh well... difficult job the Mods have


    Me... hmmm... din notice much of the forums. What workshop? If I free I will pop down. Who's coming? Robert and Erica leh?
    They are only going down for fried bee hoon!!! Especially Erica!!!!!

  18. #38
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    wah lau! hehehe.. okie okie..I see if I can make it this Tues. Got to go.. meeting a client in town now...

    Cya 'round Danny!

  19. #39
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    In the photographer's point of view, yes, it's exploitation.
    In the client's point of view, no, all i need is just cheap photographer if not free.

    To me, its the same logic as buying 3rd party stuffs.

  20. #40
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    I started out doing free photography for all kind of projects to gain exposure. Those who camplain of explolitation are probably the pro guys, or simply those who THINK they are pro.. Well, if the organisation was to pay you for a job, and if you can't deliver, then be really to compensate back in kind. No point goaning and complaining. If you are that good, people will engage you for countless fee. Else, be prepared to take up free projects, learn the ropes, subjected to grills and knocks, before you earn your marks to command a fee for your service.

    If you don't do free projects, don't spolit others newbies the opportunity to learn. It takes two hands to clap.

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