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Thread: How to stop expolitation

  1. #1
    Phildate
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    Default How to stop expolitation

    Having read and posted to the thread started by Sykestang, I had an idea that might stop the exploitation of Clubsnap members.

    One of the problems seems to be that companies know that there are lots of keen, enthusiastic photographers with good equipment who need the experience of shooting events etc...They know that by posting here they will probably get, despite the flaming that is bound to appear, half a dozen or so willing photographers from which they can choose. Can't really blame them can we?

    People want to gain experience and the only way they can do that is by shooting. However, they are taking away potential business from professionals and being exploited at the same time. I personally believe that this is a bad thing.

    So how do these photographers gain exposure without being exploited?

    Why don't we start a list of photographers and the type of events they would like to gain exposure to.

    Then, if a photographer is commissioned to shoot an event, he/she can, if they wish, scan the list and ask someone to help out.

    For example, I shot a Valentine's D&D last night. It would've been great, not only to have an assistant, but to think that this person is gaining valuable experience without being exploited or by taking a job they are not experienced, leaving it open for a professional.

    Expenses and an monetary gift could be paid by the photographer and credit given to the assistant wherever possible. The event will be better covered so the photographer is less stressed so everybody's happy! The market will begin to improve and learn that these events require a paid photographer.

    Anyway, don't want to be thought of as someone who just moans and doesn't offer a hint of a solution. Be interested to hear people's views.

  2. #2

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    ban free services threads in CS.

    i volunteer to Moderate this for FREE!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    ban free services threads in CS.

    i volunteer to Moderate this for FREE!
    Thanks for the comments in the other thread Belle&Sebastain, but I disagree on this ban. I'm sure there are some new photographers that want to do such things just to get their name in the market.
    What I would suggest is we do the following:
    - start a new forum for people looking for photo services (free or otherwise)
    - have a sticky there that alerts both the company and the photographer on various issues
    - have a sticky for a standard Term Sheet, where the photographer can modify, print out and sign with the company.
    - its kindof like the Buy and Sell Forum, there are guidelines on the merchandise that is being bought and sold.

    what do you all think ?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwicaks
    Thanks for the comments in the other thread Belle&Sebastain, but I disagree on this ban. I'm sure there are some new photographers that want to do such things just to get their name in the market.
    What I would suggest is we do the following:
    - start a new forum for people looking for photo services (free or otherwise)
    - have a sticky there that alerts both the company and the photographer on various issues
    - have a sticky for a standard Term Sheet, where the photographer can modify, print out and sign with the company.
    - its kindof like the Buy and Sell Forum, there are guidelines on the merchandise that is being bought and sold.

    what do you all think ?

    good points here. Moderators may want to discuss if this is viable.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwicaks
    Thanks for the comments in the other thread Belle&Sebastain, but I disagree on this ban. I'm sure there are some new photographers that want to do such things just to get their name in the market.
    What I would suggest is we do the following:
    - start a new forum for people looking for photo services (free or otherwise)
    - have a sticky there that alerts both the company and the photographer on various issues
    - have a sticky for a standard Term Sheet, where the photographer can modify, print out and sign with the company.
    - its kindof like the Buy and Sell Forum, there are guidelines on the merchandise that is being bought and sold.

    what do you all think ?

    good idea too, but i still do not support free services, if you want to learn, go under someones wing, dun stress yourself and shoot alone and kenna exploited.

    And if you came organize a D&D and have no budget for a photogarpher, then ask your guests or organizer to bring their own camera to shoot.

  6. #6
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    good point B&S. I see your point on no exploitation.
    but perhaps if the fledgling photographer retains the rights (doesnt sign it away) and can use (sell) the pics for other uses, or the company agree to give credits in all the publications giving "world wide" fame on the photos, would that not compensate ?

    I guess it depends on the type of shoot. If we are talking D&D stuff, I thnik B&S' suggestion should be the way to go, but for a more advert shot, model shoot, I think payment "in kind" can be the way to go. payment in kind being: all expenses paid (film, develop, repairs, etc) , credit when the photo is published (photo by:xxxx), etc.

    cheers.

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    I think some of those who oppose "free service" are professionals trying to protect their own interest.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwicaks
    Thanks for the comments in the other thread Belle&Sebastain, but I disagree on this ban. I'm sure there are some new photographers that want to do such things just to get their name in the market.
    What I would suggest is we do the following:
    - start a new forum for people looking for photo services (free or otherwise)
    - have a sticky there that alerts both the company and the photographer on various issues
    - have a sticky for a standard Term Sheet, where the photographer can modify, print out and sign with the company.
    - its kindof like the Buy and Sell Forum, there are guidelines on the merchandise that is being bought and sold.

    what do you all think ?
    Sounds good.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    It takes 2 hands to clap. If people continue to take up free jobs, there's always exploitation.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belle&Sebastain
    ban free services threads in CS.

    i volunteer to Moderate this for FREE!
    I FULL SUPPORT YOU ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THREE CHEERS TO Belle&Sebastain!!!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmen2003
    I think some of those who oppose "free service" are professionals trying to protect their own interest.

    i may feel this is heading my way but nevermind.

    what is wrong with protecting the interest, one simply cannot take all the D&D away, frankly i do not shoot that many D&Ds to protest this. I simply feel that on certain occations prono bono (free services) are fine but on a commercial basis when one starts to offer free and it becomes a practice sooner or later nobody will bother paying for this and when word speads that there are free photographers in CS, everyone will come this way.

    for hobbist who wants to shoot for free and offer them your valuable time sure, who is stopping you.

    For those who do it thinking they can charge the next time, your are only being exploited on this round and they will look for another free photog the next round or either they will not pay much for your future services as well.

    i agree with iwicaks on certain agreeements when both parties can both benefit from the shoot this sould be done but as long its for a commercial party i will stop short to be shortchanged.

    its hard to make a living these days just shooting events, many season pros and weekends hobbist knows it. There are more $$$ shooting other faceats of commerical photography.
    Last edited by Belle&Sebastain; 19th February 2005 at 12:38 PM.

  12. #12
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    Since a lot of newbie are interested in gaining experience, a good way to let them gain experience will be to encourage those professionals to take in some as assistant.

    In this way, the pro get the job and the newbie gain experience.

    Then again, people might complain that the pro are exploiting the newbie if the pro doesn't give "enuff" rewards for those assistants.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by copperbird
    I FULL SUPPORT YOU ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THREE CHEERS TO Belle&Sebastain!!!

    wow thanks but i think i frighten too many ppl here.

  14. #14

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    Ditto the views of Belle&Seb. Hobbyists whose bread and butter ain't providing photographic services are willing to offer their service for a nominal fee or even "shooting for portfolio". Truth is, as what Belle&Seb has said, if you offer your service for free this time round and hope to charge for the next time, chances are the guy will try to find another "free photographer" the next time round.

    Perhaps the situation in the photography world is taken for granted that most people fail to see the finer point so let us imagine the same situation in different industries. Say you're in the IT-related service line and you quoted your client a certain amount for a project and he told you that there is someone who's willing to do it for free. How are you going to counter that?

    For the time and your equipment invested, you guys really deserve better than "free". Don't sell yourself short and also as a result spoil the market for the professionals(as in people in this business).

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmen2003
    I think some of those who oppose "free service" are professionals trying to protect their own interest.
    in a sense, yes.

    free service throw up a lot of rubbish work and pricing clouding the integrity and professionalism of professionals.

    Also the very equipments we build up over the years for our profession are very expensive to accquire and maintain. For this reason alone, shooting without a fee for commercial event is suicide. Exception to this rule is if a charity ask for a favour and i know them to be low in operating expenditure.

    everybody is always looking after their interest first. Nothing wrong with it, and my advice to budding photographer is never to undercut yourself to death. For this i am advising the newbie in their interest as well.

    If you give yourself the notion that you need to shoot free to start out because you have no contact... i suggest you give up this profession. This is a market about standards not price and finding contact to build your client base in never just about $.

    i am exposing myself to a lot of flaks here but the truth hurts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by binbeto
    Since a lot of newbie are interested in gaining experience, a good way to let them gain experience will be to encourage those professionals to take in some as assistant.

    In this way, the pro get the job and the newbie gain experience.

    Then again, people might complain that the pro are exploiting the newbie if the pro doesn't give "enuff" rewards for those assistants.
    I would not think so.

    First, is you get hands on experience with a pro.

    Second, is that your work is being acknowlegde. Which means you may have more jobs in the future

    Third, is your not being exploited for FREE as you are bring paid. Not just ang pows, dinner and transport as your monetary. But if you do get paid, transport and dinner allowance is not covered!

    Forth, if your work is good the company will purchase the negatives or digital images from you. Which means more $$$ for you.

    Fifth, a professional photographer will still pay as he is assisting him. Assistants are paid at least $80-$100 per day. Better than working in McDonalds a day.

    So you still want to become an assistant photographer?

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    wow... this is very enlightening.. I suggest we capture at lot of these thoughts and use them as our stickies. or at least in a data file for future use.

    cheers.

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    What Danny just mentioned are all right.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by zekai
    in a sense, yes.

    free service throw up a lot of rubbish work and pricing clouding the integrity and professionalism of professionals.

    Also the very equipments we build up over the years for our profession are very expensive to accquire and maintain. For this reason alone, shooting without a fee for commercial event is suicide. Exception to this rule is if a charity ask for a favour and i know them to be low in operating expenditure.

    everybody is always looking after their interest first. Nothing wrong with it, and my advice to budding photographer is never to undercut yourself to death. For this i am advising the newbie in their interest as well.

    If you give yourself the notion that you need to shoot free to start out because you have no contact... i suggest you give up this profession. This is a market about standards not price and finding contact to build your client base in never just about $.

    i am exposing myself to a lot of flaks here but the truth hurts.
    i be backing you up on this as well, so flame me. Once you have a constent flow of business, you find ways and means to improve your services and craft (i certainly do) and i take pride in my services. So i cannot tolerate commercial organizations wanting to take what i build up over time for nothing. Money is also a means to motivate me to improve and offer a higher and better service to those whom just started.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by zekai
    What Danny just mentioned are all right.
    thank you. care to add more so that those desparate photographers are not being exploited!

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