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Thread: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Quote Originally Posted by neech7 View Post
    I also don't understand some people's hostility towards parallel importers. They are actually doing us, the consumers, a favour. Without them, the official channel will sell products at even higher prices because the parallel importers would not be there to provide some competition.

    it's the reliability of the parallel importers that consumers are worried about. Same goes to those parallet importers for cars.

    2 main questions that consumers always think:
    1. How reliabile is this PI?
    2. What if the PI shop closed down?

    PI shop is just a shop. They can come and close down the next day. The original authorised agent is here to stay for a very long term. So this is the difference.

    As we have witnessed in the PI car business. PIs are closing down. So what happened to your car's warranty and servicing?

  2. #42

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    it's the reliability of the parallel importers that consumers are worried about. Same goes to those parallet importers for cars.

    2 main questions that consumers always think:
    1. How reliabile is this PI?
    2. What if the PI shop closed down?

    PI shop is just a shop. They can come and close down the next day. The original authorised agent is here to stay for a very long term. So this is the difference.

    As we have witnessed in the PI car business. PIs are closing down. So what happened to your car's warranty and servicing?
    u just explained that PIs might be less reliable - it is a perception - no arguments there.

    but it still doesn't explain why some here are so hostile towards shops who sell grey goods .

    the shops dont hide the fact that its grey. they dont hide the fact that there's no warranty. the prices are very competitive. buyers go, see test, if happy, buy. if not happy, don't buy. its all about individual choice.

    what if the shop close down? i will continue taking pictures if the equipment is still working if not, its no difference than if i bought a local set. it could be out of warranty, i will send it in, i may have to pay for parts / workmanship, it may be beyond repair, etc etc.

    in my view, warranty does not come "free" - it is included in the price of the product. if you don't need it / want it and want to pay less for it as a result, why not?

    if you need local warranty (i.e. u use your camera to make money), then pay more and buy local sets. u can make the same arguments for cars as well - if u intend to use it heavily for work, buying an exotic parallel import model from a dodgy PI that does not offer after sales service is probably not a good idea.

    the silliness probably stems from the bad experience of a minority of users who didn't do their homework and had the wrong expectations about grey goods.

    To put things in perspective, here's an excerpt from the brochure on CASE's website on the Consumer Protection (fair trading) Act:
    What should I do if I encounter an unfair practice?

    If you fall victim to an unfair practice, you should:
    1. Attempt to resolve the dispute with the business first, failing which

    2. Seek CASE’s assistance to negotiate a settlement with the business.

    3. File a civil claim in the Small Claims Tribunal/Magistrates Court if no resolution is reached through the above channels.

    Hence, lemon law coverage in this case is irrelevant - if the shop is still around, u can bring it back and work out an agreeable arrangement. if not, suck thumb. thats no difference from pre-lemon law situation. just that the law may result in a more favourable ruling for consumers. thats all. but the onus is still on the consumer do their homework and work it out with the business if the purchase did not work out. consumers should not presume that the law would make shops any more honest, or that consumers would be more "powerful" with the law. it is still a hassle to enforce the provisions.
    Last edited by detritus; 24th October 2012 at 05:13 PM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    They break after 1 year most of the time.

    Or 2 years if your warranty is 2 years.
    That's murphy's law not lemon law. BTW Singapore's "Lemon Law" requires you to seek redress from the retailer.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Quote Originally Posted by ed9119 View Post
    Cannot have your cake and eat it too

    Gray units have no warranty .... you get lemon.... you live with lemon....
    You're wrong on this. It applies to any Singapore registered business that sells the item.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    After 12 (or 15) months, ALL cameras 'turn grey'. Speaking as a Canon user, even if you buy 'officially sanctioned' Canon cameras, after the warranty period ends, Canon will treat it no differently than a grey market unit. My 5D was a US market camera. When I was in Singapore, I brought it into CSC for sensor cleaning. The guy at the counter keyed in the S/N and remarked: "This is unit is not registered with us". But did he say "you have a grey/foreign camera and we won't service it", or "you have to pay more to get it serviced"? Nope, it was treated just like a local unit.

    Speaking of cars, I remember years ago, a parallel importer had the Nissan March for sale, and it had airbags. Meanwhile, Tan Cheong's Nissan March didn't have airbags. I asked the salesperson about it, guess what he said? "Airbags are very expensive to replace, you know?" I was thinking, if I'm in a car accident so severe that the airbags are deployed, the cost of replacement is the least I have to worry about.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Quote Originally Posted by detritus View Post
    u just explained that PIs might be less reliable - it is a perception - no arguments there.

    but it still doesn't explain why some here are so hostile towards shops who sell grey goods .

    the shops dont hide the fact that its grey. they dont hide the fact that there's no warranty. the prices are very competitive. buyers go, see test, if happy, buy. if not happy, don't buy. its all about individual choice.

    what if the shop close down? i will continue taking pictures if the equipment is still working if not, its no difference than if i bought a local set. it could be out of warranty, i will send it in, i may have to pay for parts / workmanship, it may be beyond repair, etc etc.

    in my view, warranty does not come "free" - it is included in the price of the product. if you don't need it / want it and want to pay less for it as a result, why not?

    if you need local warranty (i.e. u use your camera to make money), then pay more and buy local sets. u can make the same arguments for cars as well - if u intend to use it heavily for work, buying an exotic parallel import model from a dodgy PI that does not offer after sales service is probably not a good idea.

    the silliness probably stems from the bad experience of a minority of users who didn't do their homework and had the wrong expectations about grey goods.

    To put things in perspective, here's an excerpt from the brochure on CASE's website on the Consumer Protection (fair trading) Act:
    What should I do if I encounter an unfair practice?

    If you fall victim to an unfair practice, you should:
    1. Attempt to resolve the dispute with the business first, failing which

    2. Seek CASE’s assistance to negotiate a settlement with the business.

    3. File a civil claim in the Small Claims Tribunal/Magistrates Court if no resolution is reached through the above channels.

    Hence, lemon law coverage in this case is irrelevant - if the shop is still around, u can bring it back and work out an agreeable arrangement. if not, suck thumb. thats no difference from pre-lemon law situation. just that the law may result in a more favourable ruling for consumers. thats all. but the onus is still on the consumer do their homework and work it out with the business if the purchase did not work out. consumers should not presume that the law would make shops any more honest, or that consumers would be more "powerful" with the law. it is still a hassle to enforce the provisions.

    The perception comes from some consumers who have bad experience with PI shops. Either the PI refuse to repair / service the faulty item or they took too long to do it. Reading from some CS postings by some consumers, it is true to an certain extend.

    And of course, there are still some good PI shops around. So important thing is consumers got to do homework and make wise decisions on where to buy.

    For me personally, my greatest fear about PI shops is they can close down the next day without warning. Then I'm stuck with a completely "no warranty" item, even though the item is still within the shop warranty. So its a "no no" for me to buy from PI shops unless the item is cheap enough to replace with a new one.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    The perception comes from some consumers who have bad experience with PI shops. Either the PI refuse to repair / service the faulty item or they took too long to do it. Reading from some CS postings by some consumers, it is true to an certain extend.

    And of course, there are still some good PI shops around. So important thing is consumers got to do homework and make wise decisions on where to buy.

    For me personally, my greatest fear about PI shops is they can close down the next day without warning. Then I'm stuck with a completely "no warranty" item, even though the item is still within the shop warranty. So its a "no no" for me to buy from PI shops unless the item is cheap enough to replace with a new one.
    its a calculated risk lah... it'll never be 1/2 the price, thats for sure. if its "too" cheap, better think 3 times before buying - if something's too good to be true, it usually is.

    but we all do our own maths... some find it worthwhile, some do not. i know what u mean abt "disappearing shops" or dodgy sources.

    my point was simply that grey sources does not always mean unreliable sources and even if the shop was dishonest, the laws don't offer absolute protection to the consumer - due diligence to avoid the well known "black shops" and keeping your eyes / ears open when buying things is the best defense against unfair trading practices.

    our time is precious. having to go back to the shop to negotiate, work with CASE to resolve the case, file a claim in the small claims tribunal, etc etc... its a BIG hassle.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    if it is a law, there should be a punishment to the shop if it breaks the law just like any other law. else, shops might use the hassle as a tool to deter you from claiming lemon law with them. especially if the product does not cost a significant amount.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Hi Guys, so does the lemon law cover 2nd hand camera equipment that we bought from a 2nd hand shop ? Normally 2nd hand shop would have some type of in house warranty for about 1 or 2 months, so if lemon law applied , are we able to seek a refund or replacement within 6 months?

    I went to the CASE website and the second hand goods' statement is a bit grey...

    Second-hand goods and vehicles
    are included but “satisfactory
    quality” would take into
    account its age at the time of
    delivery, and the price paid.

  10. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by modjo
    Hi Guys, so does the lemon law cover 2nd hand camera equipment that we bought from a 2nd hand shop ? Normally 2nd hand shop would have some type of in house warranty for about 1 or 2 months, so if lemon law applied , are we able to seek a refund or replacement within 6 months?

    I went to the CASE website and the second hand goods' statement is a bit grey...

    Second-hand goods and vehicles
    are included but “satisfactory
    quality” would take into
    account its age at the time of
    delivery, and the price paid.
    Lemon laws are not about refunds.

    Replacements only if its not repairable or repairs take unreasonably long times.

    6 months, can make lemonade with the lemon unless you can prove that the problem was there at purchase - means if you procrastinate with bringing it back for repairs, unless you get a good lawyer, you get to keep the lemon

  11. #51

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    I believe this law is for business entities such as to protect consumers n tourists in general, and not applicable to bns between two private parties.

    As for grey sets and 2nd hand items sold by shops, they are probably covered by law.
    But who can guarantee your success if the shops chute pattern?
    D7100,SB910,17-50/2.8OS,105/2.8VR,85/1.8D,2xE-M1,O60/2.8,12-40/2.8,35-100/2.8,14-42,LX100

  12. #52

    Default Re: Does Lemon Law covers grey units?

    Quote Originally Posted by qystan View Post
    Lemon laws are not about refunds.

    Replacements only if its not repairable or repairs take unreasonably long times.

    6 months, can make lemonade with the lemon unless you can prove that the problem was there at purchase - means if you procrastinate with bringing it back for repairs, unless you get a good lawyer, you get to keep the lemon
    Then what's the purpose of the law if shops just ask u use your one year warranty provided by manufacturer?
    It's more than that la.
    D7100,SB910,17-50/2.8OS,105/2.8VR,85/1.8D,2xE-M1,O60/2.8,12-40/2.8,35-100/2.8,14-42,LX100

  13. #53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sin77

    Then what's the purpose of the law if shops just ask u use your one year warranty provided by manufacturer?
    It's more than that la.
    The purpose of the warranty is to protect you against defective units that escape the manufacturing process. A defect does not make the unit a lemon.

    The lemon law extra will be the shop having to help you get the fix done and you can demand the shop get you the fix at his cost regardless if the shop can get his compensation from his supplier.

    But if he sells the goods stated "as is", he can might be able to get off the hook.

    In all likelihood, it will be between you and the local agent.

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