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Thread: Artistic shoots - do you check the age?

  1. #1

    Default Artistic shoots - do you check the age?

    Not sure if this is off-topic here. I thought it may be appropriate because organisers could then take note. If it isn't, moderators please help to move it.

    This question is related to a recent thread where I thought one of the posters might not be mature enough to attend such shoots yet is interested.

    So organisers, do you check the ages of people signing up? Or should it be restricted in the first place? What do the rest of you feel?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by melnjes
    Not sure if this is off-topic here. I thought it may be appropriate because organisers could then take note. If it isn't, moderators please help to move it.

    This question is related to a recent thread where I thought one of the posters might not be mature enough to attend such shoots yet is interested.

    So organisers, do you check the ages of people signing up? Or should it be restricted in the first place? What do the rest of you feel?
    No this is not OT but it concerns everyone who is participating this type of shoots.

    The Organizers, The Participants, Make-up Artist and Models HAVE to be an approatiate age to organize Artistic shoots. Preferred age is 21(Eh after your birthday!) and above. There is of course no way to check all who are organizing the shoot on the regularities about the topic you mentioned above but it is the responsibilty of THE ORGANIZERS to check. This may scare away some people but it is better than going against the law if anything happend during the shoot.

    Those who have experience (preferbly those who have organize before) please feel free to contribute. As this is a still and will be a very sensitive topic, please refrain from any OTs.

    Moderators and Admins, please keep a close watch if you online. Thanks and Happy Chinese New Year.

  3. #3

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    Someone asked me via PM - just to clarify for everyone's benefit, this is not related to the threads related to the shoots organised on 12/19 Feb 2005, but another thread. Sorry for any misunderstanding

  4. #4
    vince123123
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    I am wondering, is there actually any specific laws stating that nude shoots or nudity for that matter, can only be viewed by age 21 and above? AFAIK, the law prohibits obscene stuffs per se, there is no "criteria" such as age that can view or take part in such activities. The only exception that comes to mind is the R21 or M18 categorisation for age limits to watch certain types of films, but that is a specific and isolated exception made.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    No this is not OT but it concerns everyone who is participating this type of shoots.

    The Organizers, The Participants, Make-up Artist and Models HAVE to be an approatiate age to organize Artistic shoots. Preferred age is 21(Eh after your birthday!) and above. There is of course no way to check all who are organizing the shoot on the regularities about the topic you mentioned above but it is the responsibilty of THE ORGANIZERS to check. This may scare away some people but it is better than going against the law if anything happend during the shoot.

    Those who have experience (preferbly those who have organize before) please feel free to contribute. As this is a still and will be a very sensitive topic, please refrain from any OTs.

    Moderators and Admins, please keep a close watch if you online. Thanks and Happy Chinese New Year.

  5. #5

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    I am wondering, is there actually any specific laws stating that nude shoots or nudity for that matter, can only be viewed by age 21 and above? AFAIK, the law prohibits obscene stuffs per se, there is no "criteria" such as age that can view or take part in such activities. The only exception that comes to mind is the R21 or M18 categorisation for age limits to watch certain types of films, but that is a specific and isolated exception made.
    in the absence of specific legislation against activities where nudity is featured by those who are not of legal age, the prudent organiser still need to be mindful of involving 'minors' in such activities. the only reason for doing so is to avoid the hassles of having to answer to the relevant authorities, in the unfortunate event that it is required.

  6. #6
    vince123123
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    well what I was asking is whether there is anything covering a separation by age. If nude photography as stated by others is legal, why is nude photography by minors any different?

    Quote Originally Posted by reachme2003
    in the absence of specific legislation against nudity per se by those who are not of legal age, the prudent organiser still need to be mindful of involving 'minors' in such activities. the only reason for doing so is to avoid the hassles of having to answer to the relevant authorities, in the unfortunate event that it is required.

  7. #7

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    well what I was asking is whether there is anything covering a separation by age. If nude photography as stated by others is legal, why is nude photography by minors any different?
    in general, our legislation as well as case law acknowledge that there are differences between an adult and a minor. so, in following this stance, it is only prudent to accord such individuals differently. i do not think that I need to go into specifics here.

  8. #8

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    i've seen lots of nude babies....

  9. #9
    vince123123
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    legislation and case law acknowledging differences between an adult and a minor does not answer the question of whether there is a differentiation in treatment in this case.

    perhaps you can tell the rest of us who dont know better, what "specifics" are you referring to? I think there is in fact a need for you to "go into specifics" as we are not aware what you are referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by reachme2003
    in general, our legislation as well as case law acknowledge that there are differences between an adult and a minor. so, in following this stance, it is only prudent to accord such individuals differently. i do not think that I need to go into specifics here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    I am wondering, is there actually any specific laws stating that nude shoots or nudity for that matter, can only be viewed by age 21 and above? AFAIK, the law prohibits obscene stuffs per se, there is no "criteria" such as age that can view or take part in such activities. The only exception that comes to mind is the R21 or M18 categorisation for age limits to watch certain types of films, but that is a specific and isolated exception made.
    vince123123, we all know that you have something to do with the law. And each time something like this pop up, you will be the first on reply about it. Get's pretty boring sometimes........ **YAWNS**........... Just Joking!

    Please please.....don't keep talking about law here. This is a photography forum and I m only giving advice for those who are not sure about it. Besides some of us have organise shoots before. Have you? Please do not encourage and misinform them about whether 21 and below is legal or not.

    Another problem is if you really want to PROOF that ages below 21 ARE ALLOWED to organise and shoot models below 21, please state your FACT and PROOF. After all Black and White PROOF is the only way to convince the organizers that it is LEGAL.

    Remember this too, fine art painting is a form of art which we cannot duplicate the exact face of a model. Photography CAN!

    vince123123, let's make it this way if you know the law so much....maybe you can organize a 17 year old model, I will call a few friends who are still in secondary schools who is interested to shoot models (maybe their parents should tag along) for us. I help with the pose and lightings. Then I will invite some of my blue uniform friends over for a cup of KOPI.

    To me and other organizers, models, photographers and make-up artist, it's BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY! Everyone agree with me? Keke.....

    Hey I am here NOT to argue with you as I know you will win lar.....me only a photographer who is looking out for others. My earlier post have stated clearly that this kind of topic will get blown out of proportion in a matter of few hours. So I hope this does not happend.

    So I apologise to everyone if I sounded to crazy! Hehe.....

    It's Chinese New Year Eve Renunion Dinner! For God sake.....spare us.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Pro Image; 8th February 2005 at 04:54 PM.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    legislation and case law acknowledging differences between an adult and a minor does not answer the question of whether there is a differentiation in treatment in this case.

    perhaps you can tell the rest of us who dont know better, what "specifics" are you referring to? I think there is in fact a need for you to "go into specifics" as we are not aware what you are referring to.
    I think what reachme2003 is trying to say this:

    In the eyes of the law, there is a segregation between adults and minors. Since such a categorisation exists, while there may or may not be an explicit rule restricting minors from participating in artistic photo shoots, organisers should maintain such a restriction, even if as reachme2003 says, "the only reason for doing so is to avoid the hassles of having to answer to the relevant authorities, in the unfortunate event that it is required."

    I just want to add further:
    While we cannot expect the law to cover all aspects of social life, we can draw examples from elsewhere e.g. the categorisation of movies, sex with minors, general rules of censorship etc. I don't think these are "exceptions" as vince123123 noted, but "precedences". The fact that such "precedences" exist mean that the authorities would be very likely to lean towards restriction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reachme2003
    in general, our legislation as well as case law acknowledge that there are differences between an adult and a minor. so, in following this stance, it is only prudent to accord such individuals differently. i do not think that I need to go into specifics here.
    Eh friend, no reunion dinner hah? Go get busy lar instead of busy pounding your keyboard away.....

    If u asked me, I have done everything, cleaning, cooking and so on. Now waiting for the rest of the family members! Then it will be time to MAKAN!!!! YAHOO!

  13. #13
    vince123123
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    Actually, I do agree with Pro Image that in this particular situation, "better is safe than sorry".

    I am just asking further to try to understand better from those who have attempted to state the position in law, the basis on which they have drawn their conclusions. It is obvious that morally speaking, we should "ban" minors from such activities. Its not a specific statement against any poster, but when someone attempts to advise that "this and that law" exists, the question that one should ask "does it really exist?"

    a good analogy would be if a security guard tells you you can't shoot a building, will you ask yourself "is that really so?" or will you say "yes yes you must be correct and I am wrong".

    It doesn't hurt to ask more indepth questions to ensure that those who try to give advice, do have a clear basis on which they are basing their advice on. If what they are expressing is their own opinion and not a statement of the law, then perhaps it may be better phrased as "I think it is not right to..." instead of "the law says that".

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    Quote Originally Posted by melnjes
    I think what reachme2003 is trying to say this:

    In the eyes of the law, there is a segregation between adults and minors. Since such a categorisation exists, while there may or may not be an explicit rule restricting minors from participating in artistic photo shoots, organisers should maintain such a restriction, even if as reachme2003 says, "the only reason for doing so is to avoid the hassles of having to answer to the relevant authorities, in the unfortunate event that it is required."

    I just want to add further:
    While we cannot expect the law to cover all aspects of social life, we can draw examples from elsewhere e.g. the categorisation of movies, sex with minors, general rules of censorship etc. I don't think these are "exceptions" as vince123123 noted, but "precedences". The fact that such "precedences" exist mean that the authorities would be very likely to lean towards restriction.
    Melvin and Jessie,

    How come so busy in here. I thought both of you should be helping mom and dad with the household?

    Anyway, Gong Xi Fa Cai to both of you!

    Aiya surf later lar. This thread is sure to explode if this kind of arguement goes on. And then it will get LOCK by the MODS as usual.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    I am just asking further to try to understand better from those who have attempted to state the position in law, the basis on which they have drawn their conclusions. It is obvious that morally speaking, we should "ban" minors from such activities. Its not a specific statement against any poster, but when someone attempts to advise that "this and that law" exists, the question that one should ask "does it really exist?"
    That's a very good point.

    I'm very sure a law does not exist that explicitly states that minors are allowed to participate in artistic shoots. so the main crux of the issue would be: does a law restricting minors from participating exist?

    There are only two possible outcomes:
    (i) Yes there is, in which case it is clear-cut
    (ii) No, there isn't, in which case the general practice of the court is to draw examples from similar situations, which as noted, we do appear to have.
    Regardless of either outcome, it seems very prudent for organisers to impose a restriction.

    This is what I think lah

  16. #16
    vince123123
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    Well from this post, I think you have gotten enough material (admist the ambiguity of answers) to answer your original question.

    I was merely asking if there is really such a law prohibiting this as those who stated that there was. However, you are correct and wise to say that, even if there is no such law, we should also be cautions in this approach as a matter of prudence.

    Quote Originally Posted by melnjes
    That's a very good point.

    I'm very sure a law does not exist that explicitly states that minors are allowed to participate in artistic shoots. so the main crux of the issue would be: does a law restricting minors from participating exist?

    There are only two possible outcomes:
    (i) Yes there is, in which case it is clear-cut
    (ii) No, there isn't, in which case the general practice of the court is to draw examples from similar situations, which as noted, we do appear to have.
    Regardless of either outcome, it seems very prudent for organisers to impose a restriction.

    This is what I think lah

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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Actually, I do agree with Pro Image that in this particular situation, "better is safe than sorry".

    I am just asking further to try to understand better from those who have attempted to state the position in law, the basis on which they have drawn their conclusions. It is obvious that morally speaking, we should "ban" minors from such activities. Its not a specific statement against any poster, but when someone attempts to advise that "this and that law" exists, the question that one should ask "does it really exist?"

    a good analogy would be if a security guard tells you you can't shoot a building, will you ask yourself "is that really so?" or will you say "yes yes you must be correct and I am wrong".

    It doesn't hurt to ask more indepth questions to ensure that those who try to give advice, do have a clear basis on which they are basing their advice on. If what they are expressing is their own opinion and not a statement of the law, then perhaps it may be better phrased as "I think it is not right to..." instead of "the law says that".
    Aiya vince,

    we all know what you meant. The only problem is there is no point to go further than that. Just stick with 21 and above. Anything happends, at least it has nothing to do with a minor. I am pretty sure an adult above 21 should know how to think for themselves unless of course they want to get themselves in trouble.

    I m pretty sure that when u get involve with a minor, the penalty MAYBE heavier. Some of us know that. So it's good that you pointed out and so did reachme2003. Again, the best is 21 and above and organize it more professionally. AND BE KIASU. Anything not too sure, don't do it and open your mouth and ask.

    Schools PSS and other institutions who organize because they need to use it for newbies who wants to learn. And they organize it very professionally.

    Whether "Is it so?" or no, you can try for yourself in order to satify your curiosity. If you do dare try it, you maybe the first Singapore.

    You can ask all you like but if an organizer is bent on doing it, what can you do? Sue them? Whether such law exist, you should know yourself better than any of us. Don't forget what your occupation is.

    We as organizer would prefer to be safe than sorry as we really do not want anything to happend to us. Some of us are still quite young, including me!!! Keke...

    Those who are going for artistic shoots, please do take note. Ask the organizers how old they are, the models age as well. At least 21 lar. Plain and simple.

    PEACE MAN!!!!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Well from this post, I think you have gotten enough material (admist the ambiguity of answers) to answer your original question.
    Thanks to everyone for clearing the way The other aim was to have this thread highlight the issue to organisers and all other participants (as Pro-Image highlighted) that this may be something to keep in mind. Hopefully it achieves that aim.

    The organiser of the 12/19 Feb shoots was concerned enough to ask me very early on if I was aware of any minors participating in those shoots (I wasn't as I was referring to another thread), kudos to him for the prompt response.

  19. #19
    vince123123
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    yeap, as long as it's a statement of "what's right and what should be done" or "what's prudent to do and safe than sorry" and not "the law says this and that" without basis, there is no longer any outstanding issues.

    Cheers and Happy CNY

    Quote Originally Posted by Pro Image
    Aiya vince,

    we all know what you meant. The only problem is there is no point to go further than that. Just stick with 21 and above. Anything happends, at least it has nothing to do with a minor. I am pretty sure an adult above 21 should know how to think for themselves unless of course they want to get themselves in trouble.

    I m pretty sure that when u get involve with a minor, the penalty MAYBE heavier. Some of us know that. So it's good that you pointed out and so did reachme2003. Again, the best is 21 and above and organize it more professionally. AND BE KIASU. Anything not too sure, don't do it and open your mouth and ask.

    Schools PSS and other institutions who organize because they need to use it for newbies who wants to learn. And they organize it very professionally.

    Whether "Is it so?" or no, you can try for yourself in order to satify your curiosity. If you do dare try it, you maybe the first Singapore.

    You can ask all you like but if an organizer is bent on doing it, what can you do? Sue them? Whether such law exist, you should know yourself better than any of us. Don't forget what your occupation is.

    We as organizer would prefer to be safe than sorry as we really do not want anything to happend to us. Some of us are still quite young, including me!!! Keke...

    Those who are going for artistic shoots, please do take note. Ask the organizers how old they are, the models age as well. At least 21 lar. Plain and simple.

    PEACE MAN!!!!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by vince123123
    Well from this post, I think you have gotten enough material (admist the ambiguity of answers) to answer your original question.

    I was merely asking if there is really such a law prohibiting this as those who stated that there was. However, you are correct and wise to say that, even if there is no such law, we should also be cautions in this approach as a matter of prudence.
    i think its best you direct your question to the relevant authorities. you are asking us laypeople about law? kind of like blind leading the blind dont you think?

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