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Thread: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

  1. #21
    Member Fudgecakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodgethis

    And you're completely missing the point...
    And you are completely off topic. We are supposed to advice TS on or against his purchase, not debate on the performance or generation of sensors and processors
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    Yes, I know all that.. but to say there are no differences in image quality and RAW files between the 500D and 7D is "Highly Debatable" (edited by Mod) .
    The 500D and the 7D are cameras of about the same generation - 2009 I think. So I would not expect there to be a very big difference between the sensors within. If you like the 650D image quality should in theory be superior. The 350D (Rebel Xti?) is a much older camera and perhaps not comparable.

    But I do maintain that even the new generation cameras don't offer significantly better IQ (despite newer sensor). Noise may be improved and resolution higher, but dynamic range has remained much the same.

    Furthermore it takes a pixel peeper to perceive these differences. If the TS wants to upgrade within APS-C, let him do it for features, not IQ. I say wait another 2 or 3 more years for there to be a truly perceptible improvement in sensor quality.
    Last edited by ed9119; 24th August 2012 at 11:08 AM.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudgecakes View Post
    And you are completely off topic. We are supposed to advice TS on or against his purchase, not debate on the performance or generation of sensors and processors
    I am NOT off-topic. I am countering the wrong information that was given as advice and when confronted, the original poster posted more mis-information that needed to be refuted. And yes, the debate on the performance of sensors and processors are legit advice on which one to purchase.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    See this link comparing ISO image quality between the 7D, 600D, 500D and 5d Mark II

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/stud...61662198391415

    Barely perceptible differences really!
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dodgethis

    I am NOT off-topic. I am countering the wrong information that was given as advice and when confronted, the original poster posted more mis-information that needed to be refuted. And yes, the debate on the performance of sensors and processors are legit advice on which one to purchase.
    Touché. I just feel that when TS asked"which camera should I buy" and you guys start debating on the differences between sensors and processors which may or may not offer significant benefit over TS' current cameras don't quite answer his question.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudgecakes View Post
    Touché. I just feel that when TS asked"which camera should I buy" and you guys start debating on the differences between sensors and processors which may or may not offer significant benefit over TS' current cameras don't quite answer his question.
    It does answer the question - but not in a plain way like "go and buy XYZ" as what might be expected. If the differences between the sensors and processors is irrelevant for TS then the indirect answer is "Stay with your current cam". But only as long as there is no other feature that TS might require - back to my initial question, still unanswered...
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  7. #27
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    Personally, I wont upgrade to 7D since it is using Digic 4. Now all the newer cameras are at least using Digic 5 and the more expensive ones using Digic 5+. Do find out more what is so great about Digic 5 ok? It will help in your consideration.

    As for 650D, it is not at fast as 7D fps however it is using Digic 5. Personally, I won't want to upgrade 500d to 650d unless I am very sure that I won't lust for more i.e. upgrade camera in the short run.

    I will probably upgrade to 60d mark II or 7d mark II upon their release or just go for 5D mark iii.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt

    The 500D and the 7D are cameras of about the same generation - 2009 I think. So I would not expect there to be a very big difference between the sensors within. If you like the 650D image quality should in theory be superior. The 350D (Rebel Xti?) is a much older camera and perhaps not comparable.

    But I do maintain that even the new generation cameras don't offer significantly better IQ (despite newer sensor). Noise may be improved and resolution higher, but dynamic range has remained much the same.

    Furthermore it takes a pixel peeper to perceive these differences. If the TS wants to upgrade within APS-C, let him do it for features, not IQ. I say wait another 2 or 3 more years for there to be a truly perceptible improvement in sensor quality.
    There are improvements and the raw are not the same contrary to what you said. What you said were "the raw files are the same".... On top on that, wb is improved, metering is improved. Both which contributes to better images. And noise is slightly better but details retained is significantly much better... And u talk about raw workflow... 7d retains a lot more details with wider dr as well... So no, improvements are pretty significant if you know how to process the raw.

    And i am not even going to respond to your "they are similar because they are apsc" comment which is plain rubbish.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 23rd August 2012 at 08:34 PM.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil123 View Post
    There are improvements and the raw are not the same contrary to what you said. What you said were "the raw files are the same".... On top on that, wb is improved, metering is improved. Both which contributes to better images. And noise is slightly better but details retained is significantly much better... And u talk about raw workflow... 7d retains a lot more details with wider dr as well... So no, improvements are pretty significant if you know how to process the raw.

    And i am not even going to respond to your "they are similar because they are apsc" comment which is plain rubbish.
    White balance and metering have nothing to do with sensor capability. White balance can be managed by post processing RAW images and metering can be handled by shooting manual, or in any mode that is not fully automatic. With a little extra effort the 500D can produce similar image quality.

    But you have completely missed my point.

    I do not deny that the 7D is more feature rich and perhaps does a better job of judging a scene and polishing the final image. This may well be true. However the sensors are similar and there is no significant difference between them unless you are a pixel peeper.

    I misspoke in the comment by saying "same". From the comments previous to that you will note that I meant "similar" not "identical".

    I do not think that the 18MP vs 15MP (7D vs 500D) produces so much additional detail that it warrants a change.

    Furthermore the 7D produces 11.7EV of DR vs 11.5DR in the 500D. Again, not so significant.

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  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by eleveninth
    buy a 5D3 and 50L . sure got difference.
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  11. #31
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    White balance and metering have nothing to do with sensor capability. White balance can be managed by post processing RAW images and metering can be handled by shooting manual, or in any mode that is not fully automatic. With a little extra effort the 500D can produce similar image quality.

    But you have completely missed my point.

    I do not deny that the 7D is more feature rich and perhaps does a better job of judging a scene and polishing the final image. This may well be true. However the sensors are similar and there is no significant difference between them unless you are a pixel peeper.

    I misspoke in the comment by saying "same". From the comments previous to that you will note that I meant "similar" not "identical".

    I do not think that the 18MP vs 15MP (7D vs 500D) produces so much additional detail that it warrants a change.

    Furthermore the 7D produces 11.7EV of DR vs 11.5DR in the 500D. Again, not so significant.

    DxOMark - Canon EOS 500D, DIGITAL REBEL T1i or Kiss Digital X3
    DxOMark - Canon EOS 7D
    You sir, are the one missing the point!

    which is: What you said was precisely: "THE RAW FILES ARE THE SAME". No they are NOT.

    We are talking about image quality, not just sensor capability. More accurate WB and better metering do contribute to image quality. because when you meter more correctly, you do not have to shift exposure around as much, giving you more dynamic range for the scene, as well as less noise from shadow or highlight recovery. And please do not tell me about using manual metering. On what do you base your manual metering, do you bring a light meter everywhere you go? do you expect TS to carry one? please.... If the meter in the camera is not accurate, how are you going to get an accurate metering by using manual metering unless you have another meter on hand?

    ISO is slightly better even in RAW. But 18MP to 15MP also helps in reducing noise. Just downsample a 7D image to 500D size and you will see even more difference. And it is not just the 7D, what you effectively said is that 7D is similar to 650D is similar to 500D.

    (Mod: .... chop chop chop ...)
    Last edited by ed9119; 24th August 2012 at 11:12 AM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    I believe I have made myself clear regarding post #11. If you read prior posts #7 and #9 you will note that similar image quality is what I've been driving at. Please refrain from unfounded and juvenile accusations.

    Now to the differences between the cameras.

    As any professional or enthusiast would understand WB is applied on the RAW sensor file after it has been captured by the camera. WB can be applied by the in-camera software, or if you shoot in RAW format, on any computer after it is transferred out.

    Automatic metering has to do with how the light levels of the scene is calculated by camera software. If light levels of a scene is calculated incorrectly you can still use the histogram or your own judgment to make a decision. This is not rocket science or hard to do, especially if you use your camera regularly. Also all cameras have their own quirks and users learn to accommodate and adjust with usage. All your talk about carrying a light meter around is ridiculous. I think 500D users will find you extremely funny.

    The main point I'm driving at is that both WB and metering can be controlled by the photographer in order to optimize the final appearance of an image. These are fixable problems. I have yet to find any senior in this forum who recommends a change in camera because WB is off or the camera continuously under or over-exposes! Have you?

    So on this basis I will stick to RAW file output as a sound technical basis in which to differentiate image quality. These are DSLRs and not P&S so you have the option of shooting in RAW format. I maintain that the 7D, 650D and 500D produce similar RAW output with only slight improvements with each sensor generation. The improvements are not so significant that differences can be perceived visually by the general user. This general user being your average individual who posts images on FB and views them on the computer screen, and not the media professional who prints giant movie sized posters.

    I hope I have made myself clear.

    (Mod: chop chop chop )
    Last edited by ed9119; 24th August 2012 at 11:13 AM.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    edited posts 18, 22, 31 and 32 ..... and deleted all flaming posts

    4 of you guys, great discussion but please BACK OFF from personal attacks thanks

    wow... never seen 2 SEPERATE flame wars going on at once in the same thread too lol .......
    Last edited by ed9119; 24th August 2012 at 11:21 AM.
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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    When it comes to buying/upgrading equipment, I've always faced the similar dillemma... Time to be practice and be abit more sure of myself!

  15. #35

    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    You can't set a 650D on fire.

    Try at own risk!

    http://<a href="http://www.youtube.c...Test - YouTube

    //some background, I am also a 500D user and am planning to upgrade to 7D when it's price reaches around SGD800 << anyone here in CS wants to sell to me btw? not fussy buyer.
    Last edited by Shizuma; 24th August 2012 at 04:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    Thanks guys for the valuable and 'entertaining' inputs. Really appreciate.

    The reason I posted this thread is because I do not want to move up to full frame sensor cams (5DM2 and above) yet... due to the lens (17-55mm F.28) I carry.
    Was suppose to get a 7D until a good frd recommended me to go for 650D, because of the colors, clarity of the 650D photos seems to be better than 7D, as claimed by him.

    However, I was afraid that the lust to upgrade soon again, if I get the 650D... XD

    Yep, as the moderator says, lets keep discussions friendly, shall we? ... Dont we all want to learn more from each other and improve our photography knowledge?

  17. #37

    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    I don't like touch screen. no 650d for me
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  18. #38
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Upgrading camera body. EOS 7D or EOS 650D

    if i were you. i will not upgrade from crop factor to another crop factor camera. To me it's not an upgrade. unless u want more megapixels, fps (depending what u shooting? if u shooting still life most of the time, 3.2 fps is sufficient) and functionality (for 650D, the articulating screen, some builtin cross processing features).

    to me, a bigger sensor matters more... hence a FF is what I go for when I upgrade from crop factor camera (more megapixels, fps other fanciful functionality are secondary to me) since I only uses prime lens now. So its a match in heaven to use my prime lens with a FF body.
    Last edited by sinned79; 27th August 2012 at 02:24 PM.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79
    if i were you. i will not upgrade from crop factor to another crop factor camera. To me it's not an upgrade. unless u want more megapixels, fps (depending what u shooting? if u shooting still life most of the time, 3.2 fps is sufficient) and functionality (for 650D, the articulating screen, some builtin cross processing features).

    to me, a bigger sensor matters more... hence a FF is what I go for when I upgrade from crop factor camera (more megapixels, fps other fanciful functionality are secondary to me) since I only uses prime lens now. So its a match in heaven to use my prime lens with a FF body.
    Agreed. No point jumping from crop to another crop. The differences are too minimal.

    TS, what Yr friend say about better colors in the crop cam is crap la. U wan better colors, change the brand.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by donut88

    Agreed. No point jumping from crop to another crop. The differences are too minimal.

    TS, what Yr friend say about better colors in the crop cam is crap la. U wan better colors, change the brand.
    Or shoot in RAW and do all the adjustments yourself

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