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Thread: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens 2u

  1. #81
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancey
    Sinned79 wrote:
    "this is another nonsense.

    are you so charitable to care for everyone else and put everyone else above yourself?

    i seriously doubt so.

    you are not opening a charity here.

    why so the ones who is teaching be the ones reflecting?

    if they are qualifed enough to teach, why should they reflecting and not those learning reflecting?

    what you saying is as good as telling teachers to face the wall and reflect while the students can do things their way wrong or right.

    if an expert like what you call in your post needs to reflect, then why call him or her an expert?

    and why an expert need to follow a newbie instead? "
    __________________________________________________ _________________

    if u r not being generous by heart(like u said, why care so much for others right? not charity u know?), then why the held bother to teach others about business strategies emphasizing on career advancement? You seemed to be contradicting yourself here. If you are not genuinely charitable, all your teachings are just a pack of lies all made up to defend the invasion of the market. A teacher should be charitable...you really don't sound like one...and for that, yes, you should reflect upon your actions and inactions.

    And i bet half the pros here would not give a hoot when ask to say pump in $1000 each for a newbie to start up his photography journey in the commercial world. They only talk, no action. When they see a cheapo undercutter in the forum, they would say they are spoiling the market and nothing else. Then they start rolling their usual record player in the name of sharing, playing the same ole song again about helping cheapos to move up the ladder so the industry is not wide opened.

    And what's this thread for? A video about someone talking about someone being sued that's why one must charge higher for contingency? Really?! I didn't know you are so charitable, sharing this great freaking tube with us newbies. Great find! what's next? charge more again because your Niko cam may explode on you someday during the shoot? WHy not charge more in case a clumsy newbie might accidentally step onto the bride's gown? Or why not substitute your thread with just 3 simple words out loud :" CHARGE HIGHER PLEASE!"?

    But then again, why so charitable? right? You should just let us rot out there then you could have the whole market for yourself...isn't it better?
    wah u type so much got use meh?

    contradicting? u sure? but arent you the one contradicting? cos you are lancey while i am sinned79. i dun do things and thinks like you do.

    arent you any better? you are like the expert now critising the way how pros (me not one) do things. its almost the same as how they tell newbies not to charge low.

    why u also NATO (no action talk only)? i challenge you to proof your theory by doing it and not just talk only. if not you are also contradicting yourself. i want to see how much 1000s u can burn to proof your theory works and proof to these pros.

    this youtube video? its just food for tots. whether they think its logical or not. up to them to decide for themselves. they are not children anymore expecting to be spoonfed.
    Last edited by sinned79; 7th August 2012 at 08:05 AM.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Do a search on his old posts you will see he had been attacking similar threads in the past. An old thread Kit made about client screening and holding ones beliefs was a good thread and he also made Kit a target.

    Sounds more like a person venting his own personal frustrations and jealousy.

  3. #83
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Do a search on his old posts you will see he had been attacking similar threads in the past. An old thread Kit made about client screening and holding ones beliefs was a good thread and he also made Kit a target.

    Sounds more like a person venting his own personal frustrations and jealousy.
    yeah i know. since i got some free time. i just play along with him. see who give up first. lol

  4. #84
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    I think we should leave things as it is and more on. Do what you feel is right. If you feel that you can still stick around and help out, by all means. What can they do? So bite me.

    Background noises are just...... well background noises. Giving them attention will only fuel their hunger for more. They started this and we should have the grace to leave them alone. Some come here to seek what they can't get elsewhere. They usually fade away with time.

  5. #85
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    They usually fade away with time.
    sounds eerie! 7th mth coming.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    sounds eerie! 7th mth coming.
    Well at least those keep to a schedule. This one comes as and when.....

  7. #87

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    When these guys gets exposed, the dig up old threads(where they were exposed too,for illogical and self-serving declarations) and get personal. That's what some Tom Dick pros do, pretend to educate u and then bite you when things don't go their way.
    No wonder this field is filled with unregulated/unsanctioned self proclaimed experts.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    I think we should leave things as it is and more on. Do what you feel is right. If you feel that you can still stick around and help out, by all means. What can they do? So bite me.

    Background noises are just...... well background noises. Giving them attention will only fuel their hunger for more. They started this and we should have the grace to leave them alone. Some come here to seek what they can't get elsewhere. They usually fade away with time.
    3rd time you are saying leaving some of us alone. Do u ever keep your word?

  9. #89

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    yeah i know. since i got some free time. i just play along with him. see who give up first. lol
    Give up? WHen i see hypocripsy, i wll call it out as i see it. Who's playing? U mean u were playing?

  10. #90

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Do a search on his old posts you will see he had been attacking similar threads in the past. An old thread Kit made about client screening and holding ones beliefs was a good thread and he also made Kit a target.

    Sounds more like a person venting his own personal frustrations and jealousy.
    SOunds more like the guy is coming back for me then. He called me a flame bait in one of his posts...and i didn't even noticed him. I guess he's still pissed he lost the argument the last time maybe?

    digging up old threads eh? typical local action.

    PS: went back to that thread, thx for that! read through the entire thread again. Hypocrite then hypocrite now, no wonder the guy's calling me a flame bait again. BTW, that thread is not about client screening and holding one's belief, it's about a dude who was venting online because he got called being inflexible after sending an abrupt rejection email to his potential client. But hey, he didn't mind not getting new word of mouth recommendations from me...but he just couldn't stand being called inflexible. Hypocritical?
    Last edited by lancey; 7th August 2012 at 02:35 PM.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    wah u type so much got use meh?

    contradicting? u sure? but arent you the one contradicting? cos you are lancey while i am sinned79. i dun do things and thinks like you do.

    arent you any better? you are like the expert now critising the way how pros (me not one) do things. its almost the same as how they tell newbies not to charge low.

    why u also NATO (no action talk only)? i challenge you to proof your theory by doing it and not just talk only. if not you are also contradicting yourself. i want to see how much 1000s u can burn to proof your theory works and proof to these pros.

    this youtube video? its just food for tots. whether they think its logical or not. up to them to decide for themselves. they are not children anymore expecting to be spoonfed.
    im not better than u for sure. At least i dun try to educate if i don't feel im charitable from the heart. U? u talk about educatiing but question the need to be so charitable in this industry. Go and reflect dude...before u fumble elsewhere in life with this philosophy ingrained.

    as for the 1000s$, sure, i would not donate to help in normal circumstances hence i do not try and pretend to be an educator of newbies coming into this business. If i can't put in action, i dun try to be an expert. Well if i want to help, i would not likely tell others what to charge..anybody can do that. Smack of desperation all over the industry.
    As for u and the whole hypocritical lot? won't donate a cent but just talk like u r doing newbies a favour....but really mostly just a coverup to protect your own market. When people want to charge higher, they will. No need to keep repeating the same record. A thousand reasons to raise price would not make a difference if people wants to price it their way.

    A photobiz forum is not just about pricing and more pricing issues, but networking and passing tips and knowledge. If u are an expert in this field, share those info.
    Your tube video with that title shows what? Shows that we should all charge higher because a lunatic is out to get the photog? U should be telling us how to prevent such from happening like precautions to take before/during and after shoots, the PR ingredients to a better business environment so forth. ALl u could think of is "charge higher in case this happen!" WTF kind of expert advice is that? Is money all u could think of?
    A million things could go wrong in a wedding shoot. Money may not solve everything. This is where we need expert teachings on how to work around client demands and how to improve or raise the bar wrt quality of shoots and settings.
    You think by charging higher will get u off a legal criminal suit if the groom accuse u of accidentally(molest to him) touching the bride? Charge more to pay the legal bills yea? how convinient. How about sharing advice on how to conduct oneself appropriately in the shoot so as not to end up being physically too close to the bride to prevent such things? No no, charge them higher in case this happens, yea?


    u think by charging higher, all these will be solved? Is this industry all about money and more money? No freaking pride in what's done and what's not? The impression i get from ur title is :" Charge more and everything will be fine, even if u F it up"

    im no expert, but to bring the industry to another level, u need to raise bars of quality and not the price tag.

    The recent case about a guy who charged $600 for a shoot and look what he got?an internet flame. Imagine he charged $5k for that. SO the extra $4.4 k can help in what way exactly? A ticket out of singapore?
    Case in point. When u r efficient aka good, people will pay whatever u ask. When u r a fumbler aka not so good, u only need to charge high once and will be exposed in no time. SO naturally, your pricetag will follow u wherever u go. No need to jack up or down by people like u shouting. The market will decide your worth.


    maybe u really don't get it, it's ok. But as of now, u all look pathetic and laughable.

    wait wait, i take that back, the pathetic and laughable part. I think u look normal, real normal in fact in this current photo industry.

    bloody point.
    Last edited by lancey; 7th August 2012 at 01:19 PM.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Dear lancey,

    We can't all be saints. Some people here are just trying to make a tiny difference in whichever way they can. Nobody is perfect, and to imply only a perfect saint to have the moral authority to impart knowledge is ridiculous.

    Business is business. Giving business advice is not charity. If we invest in someone is because he/she may be talented and suitable for nurturing. Of course that person may have to work and earn money for us for a while before striking out. Hypocritical? If you don't want to play the game, then continue to be a hobbyist. Don't let people take advantage of you.

    You're right, we are trying to protect the industry. I don't know where you got that we're doing ourselves a favour when it's actually to everyone's benefit. As for some who may fall along the way, I don't know what you're asking for. Us to hold their hand? Isn't it the same for any industry that if you're not good enough then you're out? Does the insurance company do charity for their sales persons when they fail to meet targets and land clients?

    I think you may over estimate the reach of what is done here. We're not some political party (Professional Association of Photographers) canvassing votes or issuing mandates through the media. There is no workers' union for photographers. There is no testing required to be a "professional photographer". There is PPAS, but a voluntary association. They make up mostly commercial photographers/studios which (I think) takes care of their own first and not so much the industry as a whole. (Though one could argue if to some people they actually are the industry.) They most likely do share amongst themselves the min rate because undercutting prices is a bigger issue for larger established studios than us one-man-show businesses.

    Tomorrow there can be a 100 newbies who just decided to charge for their time. Next week a 1000. What some of us do here is just a drop in the ocean. Some might not even come into Clubsnap, let alone Photo Biz. We can talk and talk and talk, and you're right, if nobody wants to listen then so be it. We don't go into Commercial Services Offered and start berating photographers for charging lowly. We don't do that.

    I won't start a thread teaching people to shoot product, because frankly there are enough youtube videos out there who do the basics quite well. I do advise when particular threads pops out occasionally asking for help. Is talking good enough? I'm not a saint. I will impart skills the way I learnt them as an assistant. That's a business transaction. Is that no good? Is that not a fair trade?

    If I ever have $1000 to 'give away', I will donate to Cat Welfare Society. I think kittens and cats are more in need than a newbie wanting to be professional who has a brain to think and look after him/herself.

    And yes, I would like other people to start charging for what the job is worth. I would also like people who cannot meet the min standard of quality to gtfo. I would also like all clients to be able to recognise what is quality and what is crap. I would also like all clients to stop thinking of cheapest deal is good enough, regardless of quality. I would also like professional camera equipment to be restricted to real professional photographers so I don't have to look at hobbyist holding on to Profotos & MFDBs.

    Unfortunately, the world doesn't run on what I would like. But since this is after all a Photography forum, a logical starting point may be to raise the value of fellow photographers. We can only hope they will be professional enough to raise rates along with quality. Some may even be good enough and could price themselves better. We can only hope that if all photographers (newbies or established) can maintain higher rates (than currently) that clients will also learn to prioritise quality/style vs pricing.

    If today the client tenders for a job, say product photography. And receives a mix of quotations from $1500 to $2000. They choose the $1500 package, but slyly tell the $2000 photographer, "hey, we received an offer for $1500 can you match that?" The 2nd photographer (am often in this scenario) may have to think -> well business is slow this month; $1500 is still better than $0; $1500 is still manageable. So okay he agrees. Next time round the client will go, okay saved $500 last time, just do the same trick and someone out there will still undercut to get the job.

    Sometimes small businesses do this and maybe we can understand. But larger companies (one I recently did) are also doing this. And I'm thinking "Sh!t man, your name is a brand and you're looking to save $500 on your product marketing?" One can only hope that next time the lowest bid will be only $1500 and not even lower, because there will always be someone less qualified and more desperate to earn something instead of nothing. That's the truth we face.

    Whether photographers want to maintain their quality of work or constantly strive to better themselves is up to the individual. We recognise that this is your own journey. There is a baseline of quality that most of us reach. We can all shoot *insert genre* adequately. Then we have specialisations and particular styles that make our work stand out or different. These things cannot be taught. And should not be taught. I cannot also imagine "Hey, do you want to shoot exactly like me? I can teach you and you don't have to pay anything! Purely from the goodness of my heart!", because my skin is not thick enough.

    Discover your own style and be a great photographer, that's what we all want for each other. Just because it's not said often doesn't mean it isn't true. There are so many great photographers out in the world that we look up to ourselves. Our ego is not that big.

    Lastly, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but what line of work are you in? If you're not a professional photographer, nor one trying to get into this industry, all you may have is a layman's understanding of what's at work here. If so, I'm not saying you should go away, but at least have an open mind and cut some slack. You may also want to structure your opinions in a more constructive manner too.

    Thanks for reading.

    ps. (because you keep editing your post): Clients make it about money so we have to follow their tune. Photographers just want to sustain themselves and produce art. Good art. Excellent art.
    Last edited by foxtwo; 7th August 2012 at 02:50 PM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Yes, your overly emo behaviour invites people to dig your past posts. I just realized not only you attacked Kit's thread, you also attacked Hart's too. In all the threads that encourage photogr pricing strategy, you always sing the same bitter tune.

    Yes, rising price is not just rising price alone but dependent upon other factors, which others had also touched in other threads, but you simply disregard the other threads and chose Sinned's thread to attack.

    Keep those negativity to yourself.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Seriously, if this continues, who will wanna share again? must be grateful, my time, no internet, only few shi fu, and they dun teach me business etc....
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  15. #95
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancey

    im not better than u for sure. At least i dun try to educate if i don't feel im charitable from the heart. U? u talk about educatiing but question the need to be so charitable in this industry. Go and reflect dude...before u fumble elsewhere in life with this philosophy ingrained.

    as for the 1000s$, sure, i would not donate to help in normal circumstances hence i do not try and pretend to be an educator of newbies coming into this business. If i can't put in action, i dun try to be an expert. Well if i want to help, i would not likely tell others what to charge..anybody can do that. Smack of desperation all over the industry.
    As for u and the whole hypocritical lot? won't donate a cent but just talk like u r doing newbies a favour....but really mostly just a coverup to protect your own market. When people want to charge higher, they will. No need to keep repeating the same record. A thousand reasons to raise price would not make a difference if people wants to price it their way.

    A photobiz forum is not just about pricing and more pricing issues, but networking and passing tips and knowledge. If u are an expert in this field, share those info.
    Your tube video with that title shows what? Shows that we should all charge higher because a lunatic is out to get the photog? U should be telling us how to prevent such from happening like precautions to take before/during and after shoots, the PR ingredients to a better business environment so forth. ALl u could think of is "charge higher in case this happen!" WTF kind of expert advice is that? Is money all u could think of?
    A million things could go wrong in a wedding shoot. Money may not solve everything. This is where we need expert teachings on how to work around client demands and how to improve or raise the bar wrt quality of shoots and settings.
    You think by charging higher will get u off a legal criminal suit if the groom accuse u of accidentally(molest to him) touching the bride? Charge more to pay the legal bills yea? how convinient. How about sharing advice on how to conduct oneself appropriately in the shoot so as not to end up being physically too close to the bride to prevent such things? No no, charge them higher in case this happens, yea?

    u think by charging higher, all these will be solved? Is this industry all about money and more money? No freaking pride in what's done and what's not? The impression i get from ur title is :" Charge more and everything will be fine, even if u F it up"

    im no expert, but to bring the industry to another level, u need to raise bars of quality and not the price tag.

    The recent case about a guy who charged $600 for a shoot and look what he got?an internet flame. Imagine he charged $5k for that. SO the extra $4.4 k can help in what way exactly? A ticket out of singapore?
    Case in point. When u r efficient aka good, people will pay whatever u ask. When u r a fumbler aka not so good, u only need to charge high once and will be exposed in no time. SO naturally, your pricetag will follow u wherever u go. No need to jack up or down by people like u shouting. The market will decide your worth.

    maybe u really don't get it, it's ok. But as of now, u all look pathetic and laughable.

    wait wait, i take that back, the pathetic and laughable part. I think u look normal, real normal in fact in this current photo industry.

    bloody point.
    dude u write long post also no use.

    either u are living in your own lala land full of perfection and idealism.

    else u sounds like a forlorn sad puppy.

    u really sound like u are from the strawberry generation asking everything to be spoonfed.

    my generation and older, we learnt and gain our life experience ourselves. some lessons cannot be taught especially life lessons. each individual experience is not the same. some had it easy some had it hard. how to teach?

    my thread is so simple. telling those who charge low to think of these legal issues and its up to them to ponder and decide whats best when they face this issue. i am sure whoever read this thread are grown adults or at least late teens and should have a mind of their own to use.

    besides each law case got different complications. how to teach? i am not a lawyer u know? and i myself is still learning especially legal aspect after i come across this video.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    maybe instead telling ppl what to do, might as well sharing what we have gone thru.... and will be a long story, real life experience and then, will still get bashed??
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    This is kind of like the formation of Critique Corner. When it first came out there were always the same 10 people commenting. There were also complaints that the words were too harsh or if this method of critique is really needed, that people who want to improve will improve on their own. Now look at the culture now, it's completely different.

    We're just trying to change a mentality, that's all. Next year or 5 years later, maybe there will be even more people out voicing their opinions and actually attempting to do something substantial. The same lot of us may not be in here contributing then, but at least a foundation has been set. Better to have started than not at all.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    dude u write long post also no use.

    either u are living in your own lala land full of perfection and idealism.

    else u sounds like a forlorn sad puppy.

    u really sound like u are from the strawberry generation asking everything to be spoonfed.

    my generation and older, we learnt and gain our life experience ourselves. some lessons cannot be taught especially life lessons. each individual experience is not the same. some had it easy some had it hard. how to teach?

    my thread is so simple. telling those who charge low to think of these legal issues and its up to them to ponder and decide whats best when they face this issue. i am sure whoever read this thread are grown adults or at least late teens and should have a mind of their own to use.

    besides each law case got different complications. how to teach? i am not a lawyer u know? and i myself is still learning especially legal aspect after i come across this video.
    dude, nvm la, u r so far off topic from mine i dunno what to say. U dun get it, let it be ok., Do what u want la. Dissapointed to see such an off topic response from you...it's shocking.

  19. #99

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonB View Post
    Yes, your overly emo behaviour invites people to dig your past posts. I just realized not only you attacked Kit's thread, you also attacked Hart's too. In all the threads that encourage photogr pricing strategy, you always sing the same bitter tune.

    Yes, rising price is not just rising price alone but dependent upon other factors, which others had also touched in other threads, but you simply disregard the other threads and chose Sinned's thread to attack.

    Keep those negativity to yourself.
    I didn't know one could attack a thread. You can attack hypocripsy, ill-logic,arrogance,greed,misinformation,deceit. But how do u attack a thread? Keep digging my friend, and watch the bobee.

    Btw, negativity/positivity are relative. Good meat to me may mean shyt to u. Hypocripsy to me may mean correctness to you. But i bet you can't tell the difference. keep digging.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by fotoudavid View Post
    maybe instead telling ppl what to do, might as well sharing what we have gone thru.... and will be a long story, real life experience and then, will still get bashed??
    i guarantee u if the intention is good and not solely for selfish protective reasons with misleading info and corrupted ideas, such stories would be appreciated by newbies.

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