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Thread: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens 2u

  1. #61

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    "first thing first, professional photography is a trade, when the trade is invaded by "outsiders", the "outsiders" going around everywhere offering cheap or even free services, potential harming the living hood of the photographers and the industry, can't the photographers inside this trade do something about it?"

    Read this quote again from someone here:

    sure feels like he's being threatened.
    Last edited by lancey; 6th August 2012 at 01:02 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    What's wrong with the mods and senior pro photographers guiding newer photographers who are interested in excelling in the business of photography?

    Why they cannot try to repair and nurture their industry? Why must you stop them?

    If you want to charge low/earn a bit only/take a loss/waste time/but still happy/, by all means do your thing. So far we didn't see anyone posting unsolicited advices into the threads of the people advertising cheap services at the Photography Services Directory forum. Its mostly kept to the Photo Biz forum. So whats wrong?

    Should all the threads and advice all change to 'you all should just anyhow charge as long as you all happy its all good!' Maybe that logic no flaws?

    actually your new title is quite good.

    see, the problem is not educating the newbies to further their business per se.
    The problem are hypocrites here telling the whole world they feel threatened by these newbies and then devise some lectures to tell them how to charge higher so that once they are on level charging fields, clients would then be more selective and not just go for the cheaps..or rather, the clients hasve no cheapo newbies to go to now.
    . In this way, the hypocrites get back what they lost but the newbies are now stuck with a high price tag but no quality work yet to break out. These hypocrites literally suck the life out of these newbies before they get a chance to grow. All in the name of sharing and education. ANd mind u, some unscrupulous ones will charge for such education...and some naive newbies would fall for it and then hail them as heroes not knowing this is a free market and everyone can have their own business plans and charging schemes.

    Ever seen a newbie come to this forum and tell the so called pros to charge lower? Never right?


    Why simple thing like these u don't get? Need to draw the intestine of the painting for u?
    Last edited by lancey; 6th August 2012 at 01:14 PM.

  3. #63
    Senior Member sinned79's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by lancey View Post
    the problem i have with some of the pros here is simple:

    they feel threatened, they tell others to charge higher to cover themselves, then they call it further education for the newbies for their OWN good. When u see hypocripsy(sp), you should make a stand immediately.

    Simple for you? don't need to be a pastor to understand simple human behaviour.
    but u need to be a pastor before they can worship and listen to you.

    it takes a pastor to do this.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    but u need to be a pastor before they can worship and listen to you.

    it takes a pastor to do this.
    Yea ok, u r excused now. thx.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    but u need to be a pastor before they can worship and listen to you.

    it takes a pastor to do this.
    Just let him be. He's enjoying his own voice now. He will go away in no time.

    Remember, he's floored by logic so that's where he belongs....... on the floor. What can he do from there? Hit you below the belt at best.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    如果你自己都不愿意动, 还有谁可以帮助你成功。。。。。
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  7. #67

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by lancey View Post
    actually your new title is quite good.

    see, the problem is not educating the newbies to further their business per se.
    The problem are hypocrites here telling the whole world they feel threatened by these newbies and then devise some lectures to tell them how to charge higher so that once they are on level charging fields, clients would then be more selective and not just go for the cheaps..or rather, the clients hasve no cheapo newbies to go to now.
    . In this way, the hypocrites get back what they lost but the newbies are now stuck with a high price tag but no quality work yet to break out. These hypocrites literally suck the life out of these newbies before they get a chance to grow. All in the name of sharing and education. ANd mind u, some unscrupulous ones will charge for such education...and some naive newbies would fall for it and then hail them as heroes not knowing this is a free market and everyone can have their own business plans and charging schemes.

    Ever seen a newbie come to this forum and tell the so called pros to charge lower? Never right?


    Why simple thing like these u don't get? Need to draw the intestine of the painting for u?
    You are on the assumption that a newbie's work is definitely not good enough and that work quality is the sole deciding factor for clients, you are also assuming that the newbies are sharing the same the genre of work and the same pool of clients as the experienced pros have.

    If it is only so simple as having good quality work. Having good work does not automatically equate to having more clients and earning more money. So many amateurs have good work here but no good business skills. There are other threads here providing insights of marketing and branding, legal and genre specific type of advices. But you coincidentally choose a thread about pricing and attack it.

    So I don't know why you are so upset about. Like I said earlier, if you want to charge low and earn a bit only, by all means go do your thing and be happy about it. There are people like you who don't subscribe to the current advices but there are also others who does and benefited from it.
    Last edited by sjackal; 6th August 2012 at 02:03 PM.
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  8. #68
    Member agws1970's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    but u need to be a pastor before they can worship and listen to you.

    it takes a pastor to do this.
    Sorry to correct you but a CULT Leader is more like it. He should start a photography or other services business just to experience things himself.
    Sounds like an idealist without any real world experience.
    Same kind of people who complain that since chickens cost $6.00 in supermarkets so Chicken rice should be $1.00.

  9. #69
    Member agws1970's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by lancey View Post
    the newbies are now stuck with a high price tag but no quality work yet to break out.
    Exactly the bloody point everyone has been trying to drive across. NO QUALITY WORK is the number one reason that you shouldn't be in business in the first place. Get competent at it before you even try to do a job that you cannot do.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by agws1970 View Post
    Exactly the bloody point everyone has been trying to drive across. NO QUALITY WORK is the number one reason that you shouldn't be in business in the first place. Get competent at it before you even try to do a job that you cannot do.
    that is why some newbies need to charge low first for low budget people who dont mind low quality work to begin with. Pros are even targetting these poor souls to move up when they arent ready and calling them invaders of their industry.
    everyone who charge below market rate is a cheapo market spoiler to them.
    Yes, exactly which bloody point you dont get?
    Last edited by lancey; 6th August 2012 at 04:44 PM.

  11. #71
    Member agws1970's Avatar
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    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by lancey View Post
    that is why some newbies need to charge low first for low budget people who dont mind low quality work to begin with. Pros are even targetting these poor souls to move up when they arent ready and calling them invaders of their industry.
    everyone who charge below market rate is a cheapo market spoiler to them.
    Yes, exactly which bloody point you dont get?
    So you are looking for clients who don't mind spending money to get low quality work. Obviously not in the trade or services industry.
    Which customer will hire someone who says: Erm I am just starting out so you can pay me half price for my low quality work. Think before you take this kind of a stand.
    How to justify low quality work. Learn the trade skills before stepping into the trade.
    THAT IS THE BLOODY POINT.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by agws1970 View Post
    So you are looking for clients who don't mind spending money to get low quality work. Obviously not in the trade or services industry.
    Which customer will hire someone who says: Erm I am just starting out so you can pay me half price for my low quality work. Think before you take this kind of a stand.
    How to justify low quality work. Learn the trade skills before stepping into the trade.
    THAT IS THE BLOODY POINT.
    the point is not about the quality of work. The point is freaked out pros are telling those without quality work to charge higher eventhough budget couples are still hiring them because they are cheap. The pros are saying they are helping them but in fact they are covering their own S because they can't comepete with these cheapos either because their own work is of low quality or that there are too many budget conscious couples refusing to pay more for the same shytty work.

    bloody point.
    Last edited by lancey; 6th August 2012 at 06:43 PM.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    You are on the assumption that a newbie's work is definitely not good enough and that work quality is the sole deciding factor for clients, you are also assuming that the newbies are sharing the same the genre of work and the same pool of clients as the experienced pros have.

    If it is only so simple as having good quality work. Having good work does not automatically equate to having more clients and earning more money. So many amateurs have good work here but no good business skills. There are other threads here providing insights of marketing and branding, legal and genre specific type of advices. But you coincidentally choose a thread about pricing and attack it.

    So I don't know why you are so upset about. Like I said earlier, if you want to charge low and earn a bit only, by all means go do your thing and be happy about it. There are people like you who don't subscribe to the current advices but there are also others who does and benefited from it.
    if u don't feel invaded by cheapos and hence the need to educate these cheapos how to charge higher and so level the playing field and is one who genuinely wants to help newbies when help is seeked from, why are u bothered with what i have said?
    If u r the above, u r not a hypocrite..but if u r not, then well, u won't get it anyway.
    if you read the thread carefully, one of these so called pros has already stated that pros should "correct the industry" by educating these cheapo invaders of the industry, without caring first what their background is and what capabalities they have and why they are charging so low.
    All they bloody care about is that the invaders are eating into their market and they feel that they have a right to publicly denounce them or more dangerously, lecture them via classes through such forums the need to raise the price...all for what?
    So that some of these cheapos would eventually be phased out because they can't challenge some of the pros who in fact have a slight edge over them in terms of experience and quality. That is the aim of these hypocritical pros. Brainwashed the newbie invaders, and then let them not know what hit them.

    Now ask yourself, do u feel invaded? why would u wanna help a newbie raise his price via education? who r u really benefitting?

    Everyone is afraid of being undercut, sure. But one must have dignity and integrity.

    If you see Tom charging $500 a wedding and you charge$2000, why would you have a need to tell him that he has to charge higher? What motivates you to do that? Even if you know Tom, I find no other reasons besides a selfish one. Scared of being undercut, what else?

    If you really wanna help Tom in anyway to further his career, buy him an overseas course, let him learn more and let him raise his own price. Introduce Tom to some of your clients, expose him and let him work his way on his own from there. Give him a head start whatever. But you wouldn't do that, would you, hypocritical lot? Instead of calling Tom an invader, what good are some of you so called pros? Everyday complaining about cheapos eating your market. Really
    ? you think you own the market? Every Dick I know who charges a fee with a camera owns the same part of the market as you ok? Please go and reflect your actions and inactions.

    One has to find a way to overcome "invasion" of any sorts in whatever trades by changing one's practices instead of changing others'. By doing the latter, this pro industry is not only laughable, it's very pathetic. And if you think pathetic and laughable is fine, go ahead..

    ANd for that dreadful soul who claims "pros should not stoop so low to answer to people like me..." Hello, i get your hint, but who you think you are? ANother Harry charging a fee for some shoots right? No need to sit so high up.
    If you really wanna help the newbies, start a fund, send the best ones for understudy with the best, can u do it? help? u only care about your bloody market.
    Last edited by lancey; 6th August 2012 at 07:37 PM.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by agws1970 View Post
    So you are looking for clients who don't mind spending money to get low quality work. Obviously not in the trade or services industry.
    Which customer will hire someone who says: Erm I am just starting out so you can pay me half price for my low quality work. Think before you take this kind of a stand.
    How to justify low quality work. Learn the trade skills before stepping into the trade.
    THAT IS THE BLOODY POINT.
    I politely reject your claim.... I for one AM VERY SURE there are clients who look for "budget" services. Not everyone can pay a so call above average fee for a actual day whom someone mentioned earlier. I pay peanuts, I get peanuts. What is the issue here?

  15. #75

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    You are on the assumption that a newbie's work is definitely not good enough and that work quality is the sole deciding factor for clients, you are also assuming that the newbies are sharing the same the genre of work and the same pool of clients as the experienced pros have.

    If it is only so simple as having good quality work. Having good work does not automatically equate to having more clients and earning more money. So many amateurs have good work here but no good business skills. There are other threads here providing insights of marketing and branding, legal and genre specific type of advices. But you coincidentally choose a thread about pricing and attack it.

    So I don't know why you are so upset about. Like I said earlier, if you want to charge low and earn a bit only, by all means go do your thing and be happy about it. There are people like you who don't subscribe to the current advices but there are also others who does and benefited from it.
    This is business isn't it? If you dont have all those elements which you mentioned like marketing, sales talk etc, then it is best to work for a company which is established and is able to continously give you assignment with a cut (I suppose).
    It's a dog eat dog world out there. I may not know the complication of the photography industry, but I do know that pricing is a strategy, and a crucial one. I'm sure the market will have enough ground for each segment.

    Just taking a employee for a company as an example. Let's say I am earning $6K/per month.. But there are so many graduates out there also looking into for a position as mine. Do i directly compete with them who only ask for $3K? No. Beacuse i have a very strong resume and experience which fresh grduate cannot offer to the company. Along the way, they may earn as much as me or even higher. That is the way it work isn't it? Established portfolio = charge a higer fee.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    anyway, there are many starfishes (wannabe) lying on the beach,

    they don't have the skills to live on land, they will die once the sun comes out

    if throwing them back to the sea,

    the very next day they will end up lying on the beach again,

    so why bother?



    ================================================== ==========
    those who really keen to be a professionals,

    be humble, learn whatever you can now,

    the seniors don't own you a living,

    want to listen, good,

    don't want to listen, so be it,

    we don't know will you still be there by next year or two anyway,

    if you are committed, proof yourself,

    attend seminars and workshops

    join the trade associations, get certified,






    directions already given, the rest is up to you.
    This I agree.. Educate the new ones what they are expecting in the cruel world and let them decide their path.
    The strongest survive~~

  17. #77

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by White Wolf View Post
    This is business isn't it? If you dont have all those elements which you mentioned like marketing, sales talk etc, then it is best to work for a company which is established and is able to continously give you assignment with a cut (I suppose).
    It's a dog eat dog world out there. I may not know the complication of the photography industry, but I do know that pricing is a strategy, and a crucial one. I'm sure the market will have enough ground for each segment.

    Just taking a employee for a company as an example. Let's say I am earning $6K/per month.. But there are so many graduates out there also looking into for a position as mine. Do i directly compete with them who only ask for $3K? No. Beacuse i have a very strong resume and experience which fresh grduate cannot offer to the company. Along the way, they may earn as much as me or even higher. That is the way it work isn't it? Established portfolio = charge a higer fee.
    I think the general message is to charge healthily and have vision for the future. I believe the advice were stemmed out of good intention but taken badly by some individuals.

    There are clients who indeed belong to the pay peanuts, expect peanuts one. But definitely not all peanut paying clients expect just peanuts, but, thats another long story and big topic on its own.
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  18. #78

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    But definitely not all peanut paying clients expect just peanuts, but, thats another long story and big topic on its own.
    I'm dead sure there are people like that.....

  19. #79

    Default Re: Here's another reason why you should not charge too cheap... in case this happens

    Sinned79 wrote:
    "this is another nonsense.

    are you so charitable to care for everyone else and put everyone else above yourself?

    i seriously doubt so.

    you are not opening a charity here.


    why so the ones who is teaching be the ones reflecting?

    if they are qualifed enough to teach, why should they reflecting and not those learning reflecting?

    what you saying is as good as telling teachers to face the wall and reflect while the students can do things their way wrong or right.

    if an expert like what you call in your post needs to reflect, then why call him or her an expert?

    and why an expert need to follow a newbie instead? "
    __________________________________________________ _________________

    if u r not being generous by heart(like u said, why care so much for others right? not charity u know?), then why the held bother to teach others about business strategies emphasizing on career advancement? You seemed to be contradicting yourself here. If you are not genuinely charitable, all your teachings are just a pack of lies all made up to defend the invasion of the market. A teacher should be charitable...you really don't sound like one...and for that, yes, you should reflect upon your actions and inactions.

    And i bet half the pros here would not give a hoot when ask to say pump in $1000 each for a newbie to start up his photography journey in the commercial world. They only talk, no action. When they see a cheapo undercutter in the forum, they would say they are spoiling the market and nothing else. Then they start rolling their usual record player in the name of sharing, playing the same ole song again about helping cheapos to move up the ladder so the industry is not wide opened.

    And what's this thread for? A video about someone talking about someone being sued that's why one must charge higher for contingency? Really?! I didn't know you are so charitable, sharing this great freaking tube with us newbies. Great find! what's next? charge more again because your Niko cam may explode on you someday during the shoot? WHy not charge more in case a clumsy newbie might accidentally step onto the bride's gown? Or why not substitute your thread with just 3 simple words out loud :" CHARGE HIGHER PLEASE!"?

    But then again, why so charitable? right? You should just let us rot out there then you could have the whole market for yourself...isn't it better?
    Last edited by lancey; 7th August 2012 at 12:18 AM.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by agws1970

    No offense but a clients wedding day is not the time to pick up skills and mold our style. Wedding photography is one trade where apprenticeship is really needed but being circumvented nowadays. You cannot afford to re-shoot a wedding.
    I believe I didn't mentioned abt using wedding day to pick up skill or mold our style. But I'm pretty sure after each shoot, a photographer will picked something unconsciously. Maybe photography or business aspects or other stuffs (such as traditions).

    The sad fact is that, I hardly seen anyone offering apprenticeship for wedding photography the past 3 yrs that I've been on clubsnap. There's just so many pros that are willing to share but there are so much more newbies wanting to learn.

    So how I learn my ways in photography these 3 years alone and with peers, is by reading, seeing others works, shooting, learning and applying what I learned, during or not during an AD shoot. Sometimes it works like an eureka while other times fail and I'll try to learn my mistakes. I still deliver decent work or baseline deliverables that my clients are happy with.

    So if this process is not allowed and all newbie needs to shoot imaginary weddings in their head to learn all the skill before going out to shoot an actual wedding (note that I nvr say anything about charging here), I don't know how one would learn. It's like learning to ride a bike on a stationary cycling machine in the gym.
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