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Thread: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

  1. #41

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by PentiumPC View Post
    Quite standard in the industry..lol.
    Actually, it makes no sense to say 8MB file. It's more accurate to provide minimum image dimensions and dpi. JPG compression can easily reduce a 22MP raw image to <5MB depending on the image captured.

    But then, that would be nitpicking

  2. #42
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    you shoot a scene with lot of messy background, than add a lot of noise, add a lot of USM in the post, save at 100% or quality 12, you will have a super huge file size jpg.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by knoxknocks View Post
    Actually, it makes no sense to say 8MB file. It's more accurate to provide minimum image dimensions and dpi. JPG compression can easily reduce a 22MP raw image to <5MB depending on the image captured.

    But then, that would be nitpicking
    It shows that they don't know what they want, probably just copied and pasted the requirement from someone else.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by knoxknocks View Post
    May or may not be related...

    Need a photographer to take pics - Singapore other jobs - Gumtree Singapore

    Have some respect for photographers lah. At the same time, I really hope photographers value their time and effort, and walk away from these kinds of silly offers.
    Do take note too... you need official permission to shoot at some of these places as well. For example, police stations, bus interchange etc.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Only in commercial photography, you see pros constantly telling what others should be charging and not charging.
    If ABC wants that $100 per 60 locations job, is it your problem?

    What's next? tell CDE not to charge the couple for a pre wedding shoot because they are paying 30k for 8 hours? because it's unethical?
    Last edited by lancey; 22nd July 2012 at 12:54 PM.

  6. #46
    Member Unagidon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi4nyang
    Hi all,

    I'm looking for 2-3 landscape and architecture photographers to take shots of several places like churches or fort canning. You will need to take photographs that show the best of the location. You will be assigned some places, totaling about 65-75. It is a mini assignment open to all photographers who can take excellent shots of places. Your expected remuneration is approx $80-120 depending on your profile.

    Interested parties please PM me with details of yourself and your experience as well as portfolio.

    Thanks!
    Hi after reading this thread and I started wandering there are a lot of photography competition these days, if he put it this way photography competition to take shots of churches or fort canning hill, and in the registeration all photos submited copyright (not sure how this actually works) will be belongs to him. And when the result is out he pay the best 3 $120 each plus some consolation price. With all the photos he gets, and starts using it for commercial purpose.

    End of the day he will get what he want under a certain level of risk.

    Just want to know is it legal to do that.

  7. #47
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by Unagidon View Post
    Hi after reading this thread and I started wandering there are a lot of photography competition these days, if he put it this way photography competition to take shots of churches or fort canning hill, and in the registeration all photos submited copyright (not sure how this actually works) will be belongs to him. And when the result is out he pay the best 3 $120 each plus some consolation price. With all the photos he gets, and starts using it for commercial purpose.

    End of the day he will get what he want under a certain level of risk.

    Just want to know is it legal to do that.
    the cost of putting out a competition is definitely more then the total prize of he willing to pay, a cheapo person like this probably won't do it.

    beside, if you read the post carefully, he is paying $1.2-$1.5 for each selected photos.
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by lancey View Post
    Only in commercial photography, you see pros constantly telling what others should be charging and not charging.
    If ABC wants that $100 per 60 locations job, is it your problem?

    What's next? tell CDE not to charge the couple for a pre wedding shoot because they are paying 30k for 8 hours? because it's unethical?
    Well-said.

    Very weird how this topic constantly surfaces. And it's by working pros. Don't they have their businesses to run? Where do they find the time and energy to constantly post here on this?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, this topic of discussion has been around for several years already!

    Here's my take:

    As we progress, we must be open-minded. There are things we can change. Those we can, we try. Those we cannot, let it be! Learn to accept it.

    Take digital photography for eg. When consumer digital cameras first came out in the market, every enthusiast and pro will not even think of using it for serious stuffs. Films were still the way to go. But fast-forward.... Look at it now. Film is almost over. Many film-developing shops had to close down! If you love films, are you going to lobby or protest in the streets: BRING FILM BACK!

    No! You accept it. You accept that films will cost more now. You want to shoot films, you pay more. You don't create posts on CS telling people Please use films. Don't use digital, in the hope that films will make a come back and hence, lower their costs again. It's impossible.

    Ok the above is just an analogy. As far as charging is concerned, it's anybody's game! It's the same as in the Buy and Sell in any ad. Someone wants to sell something and he/she gives a high price, it's up to you. You think you want it badly, you buy it. If not, you walk off. As they always say, willing seller, willing buyer.

    Same goes here. If there are really people who think doing an assignment for $100 for 60 places is worth it, let them take it! The one who offered $100 should accept whatever results. Maybe the poster doesn't really want the best quality images? But don't discount the amateurs. Some can take very nice shots. Many do it for pocket money. They charge high, the job goes to another person.

    The really funny thing is this. Whenever I hear successful people talk, it's usually from a humble background: "I offered my services to blah blah for little money or for free. I helped my friends take wedding photos and found my passion there and then... I gave my services for $100 a day and after much hard work, I managed to...."

    Have you ever heard of a successful photographer who said, "You know, when I first started out, I didn't want to feel cheap. I didn't want to charge low. So my asking rate was $3000 for my first assignment." Bull...

    I can empathize where some of you guys are coming from. Cos photographer is your bread and butter. You've probably got children to feed. I can see fear inside you, at least a bit, even though you don't want to express it out openly.

    But you must accept photography is no longer like in the past where only the technically-minded take up. Where you must use light-meters, calculate exposures manually, turn complicated knobs and dials. This is the 21st century. Photography is advance stuff. It's simple to use a camera. More are taking it up. People pick up photography much quicker. I see this as the bright side of photography.

    On your part, you have to accept that there will be very strong competition everywhere. That's why you must be different or stand out. If you can't, it means you're not good enough. It's a fair game. For those who charge low, it's their choice. If they can survive, so be it! But if their standards are lousy, they won't survive long. What is your worry?

  9. #49
    Member Unagidon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights
    the cost of putting out a competition is definitely more then the total prize of he willing to pay, a cheapo person like this probably won't do it.

    beside, if you read the post carefully, he is paying $1.2-$1.5 for each selected photos.
    Ok understood the fact that publicity and advertising of the competition may require more money, but with sponsor (not easy to find one) and platform like facebook, clubsnap forum this could reduce the cost.

    So if he were to keep it very simple, make a poster, post it on clubsnap, facebook, twitters etc and let it run for a few months and get ppl to vote in fb. From time to time havest the photo he gets, and when deadline is here, give the winners a call to come and collect his prize.

    It is true that 1.2 to 1.5 per photo is very cheap but hosting a cheap competition can also be done (not sure whether this is efficient).

    Let me know if i'm wrong

  10. #50

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    "We are a new restaurant and need our menu pictures done, about 30+ items. We are unfamiliar with who is good or who is not in the photographer's market and are worried with landing with up mediocre photographer, can you photograph 3 items for us to access if your photos are suitable for us? If so we can hire you for the whole project"

    Repeat the email for another 10 photographers and they will have their menu.

    "We are a start up interiors design and renovation firm and we also sell customised furnitures. We have 10 apartment units to be photographed for our portfolio and promotional collaterals and we are looking for a photographer. Will you be able to do us a good deal by shooting the first apartment unit as complimentary?"

    They will just look for the next idiot after the guy shot the first complimentary unit. They probably already did and actually 10 photographers are shooting free for them in the same week.

    You throw a stone out into a sea because of the sheer number of hungry fishes one sure to gobble down that hard stone thinking its meat. Because Clubsnap is a known photography hub for Singapore, these people come here to hunt. How they know Clubsnap is probably because they are CS members themselves. The mods and pros active on business forums are shot down, probably by the same people who interests got frustrated since the 'asking for free service threads' are quickly taken down by the mods and the 'photography business building tips' threads are teaching newbies to be money smarter.
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    Well-said.

    Very weird how this topic constantly surfaces. And it's by working pros. Don't they have their businesses to run? Where do they find the time and energy to constantly post here on this?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, this topic of discussion has been around for several years already!

    Here's my take:

    As we progress, we must be open-minded. There are things we can change. Those we can, we try. Those we cannot, let it be! Learn to accept it.

    Take digital photography for eg. When consumer digital cameras first came out in the market, every enthusiast and pro will not even think of using it for serious stuffs. Films were still the way to go. But fast-forward.... Look at it now. Film is almost over. Many film-developing shops had to close down! If you love films, are you going to lobby or protest in the streets: BRING FILM BACK!

    No! You accept it. You accept that films will cost more now. You want to shoot films, you pay more. You don't create posts on CS telling people Please use films. Don't use digital, in the hope that films will make a come back and hence, lower their costs again. It's impossible.

    Ok the above is just an analogy. As far as charging is concerned, it's anybody's game! It's the same as in the Buy and Sell in any ad. Someone wants to sell something and he/she gives a high price, it's up to you. You think you want it badly, you buy it. If not, you walk off. As they always say, willing seller, willing buyer.

    Same goes here. If there are really people who think doing an assignment for $100 for 60 places is worth it, let them take it! The one who offered $100 should accept whatever results. Maybe the poster doesn't really want the best quality images? But don't discount the amateurs. Some can take very nice shots. Many do it for pocket money. They charge high, the job goes to another person.

    The really funny thing is this. Whenever I hear successful people talk, it's usually from a humble background: "I offered my services to blah blah for little money or for free. I helped my friends take wedding photos and found my passion there and then... I gave my services for $100 a day and after much hard work, I managed to...."

    Have you ever heard of a successful photographer who said, "You know, when I first started out, I didn't want to feel cheap. I didn't want to charge low. So my asking rate was $3000 for my first assignment." Bull...

    I can empathize where some of you guys are coming from. Cos photographer is your bread and butter. You've probably got children to feed. I can see fear inside you, at least a bit, even though you don't want to express it out openly.

    But you must accept photography is no longer like in the past where only the technically-minded take up. Where you must use light-meters, calculate exposures manually, turn complicated knobs and dials. This is the 21st century. Photography is advance stuff. It's simple to use a camera. More are taking it up. People pick up photography much quicker. I see this as the bright side of photography.

    On your part, you have to accept that there will be very strong competition everywhere. That's why you must be different or stand out. If you can't, it means you're not good enough. It's a fair game. For those who charge low, it's their choice. If they can survive, so be it! But if their standards are lousy, they won't survive long. What is your worry?
    You are absolutely right... Time change and methods change and a lot has changed since the digital technology come around.

    However, we are not asking people to charge more for the sale of charging more. Sure everyone has the different level what is enough for them. I believe what we trying to say is to charge above your cost. To make some profit you can enjoy if you want to run a business. Life is a bitch to do something you love but starve for doing so.

    Of course, it is none of our business if they want to charge less...

    What I find lacking nowadays is the pride of creating highest possible quality images. I have seen photographers work who claim to be award winning doesn't live up to their expectation even for simple getting the correct color right. Oh well, it's their decision.

    Nowadays, it is not about how good you are with your skills, it is about how to market your service that is important to survive the long term.

    Regards,

    Hart

  12. #52

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Yes I agree. But there are many posts here and elsewhere which seem to argue on the point of charging more without considering further the implications behind that intention.

    As you've mentioned, there are so-called "award-winning" photographers whose works are questionable. That's because the bodies that gives out such titles are questionable themselves. There is one big popular photography organization that is of such. I wish I could name it here.

    Yes, sad (for consumers) or lucky (for the lousy photographers), it's not so much of skills nowadays. It's about how you "attack" the business. Digital has really changed the way photography is perceived.

    As I've said, it's anyone's game. We can't control it. It's a phenomenon that is happening all around the world. No amount of education will change it by the very nature of what photography is today.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post
    You are absolutely right... Time change and methods change and a lot has changed since the digital technology come around.

    However, we are not asking people to charge more for the sale of charging more. Sure everyone has the different level what is enough for them. I believe what we trying to say is to charge above your cost. To make some profit you can enjoy if you want to run a business. Life is a bitch to do something you love but starve for doing so.

    Of course, it is none of our business if they want to charge less...

    What I find lacking nowadays is the pride of creating highest possible quality images. I have seen photographers work who claim to be award winning doesn't live up to their expectation even for simple getting the correct color right. Oh well, it's their decision.

    Nowadays, it is not about how good you are with your skills, it is about how to market your service that is important to survive the long term.

    Regards,

    Hart

  13. #53

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    As you've mentioned, there are so-called "award-winning" photographers whose works are questionable. That's because the bodies that gives out such titles are questionable themselves. There is one big popular photography organization that is of such. I wish I could name it here.

    Yes, sad (for consumers) or lucky (for the lousy photographers), it's not so much of skills nowadays. It's about how you "attack" the business.

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  14. #54

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post
    Yes I agree. But there are many posts here and elsewhere which seem to argue on the point of charging more without considering further the implications behind that intention.

    As you've mentioned, there are so-called "award-winning" photographers whose works are questionable. That's because the bodies that gives out such titles are questionable themselves. There is one big popular photography organization that is of such. I wish I could name it here.

    Yes, sad (for consumers) or lucky (for the lousy photographers), it's not so much of skills nowadays. It's about how you "attack" the business. Digital has really changed the way photography is perceived.

    As I've said, it's anyone's game. We can't control it. It's a phenomenon that is happening all around the world. No amount of education will change it by the very nature of what photography is today.
    I think the issue isn't much on the association but on individual ethics.

    It's certainly easier to cash in on the winning. It's their choice really.

    You are welcome to call yourself anything but if you can't live up to the expectation, then it all falls back on you. What goes around comes around eventually.

    Hart

  15. #55
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by Agetan View Post

    Nowadays, it is not about how good you are with your skills, it is about how to market your service that is important to survive the long term.

    Regards,

    Hart
    Unfortunately, in Singapore.... cost is everything.... most people do not even know the differences between quality and average photo.....

    As long as you are cheap..... and if you have the subject in focus, that is about it....
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon View Post
    Unfortunately, in Singapore.... cost is everything.... most people do not even know the differences between quality and average photo.....

    As long as you are cheap..... and if you have the subject in focus, that is about it....
    Not true... There are enough clients who is willing to pay for quality work... knowing how to market yourself well do put you in business...



    Regards,

    Hart

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Full time photographers who knows their market place shouldn't be so affected by these budget hunters. It is pretty much happening in every industry. Whenever technology is the enabler, there will be a big shift in consumer behaviour every time the cost of entry is being lowered. Cheaper, better and faster. Sounds familiar?

    What I hope to see in the near future is that photographers focus on innovative ideas to bring to the market and adopt a more pro-active approach. Some photographers I dealt before are too passive in both their line of work and communications. The ones who see the light of day are the ones who keep their ego at bay, get the job done according to specs and bring new ideas to the table.

    The issue about cost is always subjective. As a media buyer, I get all assortments of products/services from the internet. However it is safe to say most of it are junk which is actually good news for you working professionals. The market is sprayed with rubbish and it is up to you to stand out from the pile of trash. I am sure with enough research and planning, you can easily find out what is hot out there and act accordingly. Any agency or company worth their salt can differentiate between sh!t and acceptable work when it comes to hiring a photographer for their needs. The same can be said for photographers. If you have been in business for a while, you can easily sniff out the problematic jobs from the ones that actually is good for business.

    To cut the long story short, focus on what is right for your business. Don't get too emotionally attached to things that don't help your business grow. Cheers!

  18. #58

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by hazmee View Post
    Full time photographers who knows their market place shouldn't be so affected by these budget hunters. It is pretty much happening in every industry. Whenever technology is the enabler, there will be a big shift in consumer behaviour every time the cost of entry is being lowered. Cheaper, better and faster. Sounds familiar?

    What I hope to see in the near future is that photographers focus on innovative ideas to bring to the market and adopt a more pro-active approach. Some photographers I dealt before are too passive in both their line of work and communications. The ones who see the light of day are the ones who keep their ego at bay, get the job done according to specs and bring new ideas to the table.

    The issue about cost is always subjective. As a media buyer, I get all assortments of products/services from the internet. However it is safe to say most of it are junk which is actually good news for you working professionals. The market is sprayed with rubbish and it is up to you to stand out from the pile of trash. I am sure with enough research and planning, you can easily find out what is hot out there and act accordingly. Any agency or company worth their salt can differentiate between sh!t and acceptable work when it comes to hiring a photographer for their needs. The same can be said for photographers. If you have been in business for a while, you can easily sniff out the problematic jobs from the ones that actually is good for business.

    To cut the long story short, focus on what is right for your business. Don't get too emotionally attached to things that don't help your business grow. Cheers!
    Thank you to point it out.

    Hart

  19. #59
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmoon View Post
    Unfortunately, in Singapore.... cost is everything.... most people do not even know the differences between quality and average photo.....

    As long as you are cheap..... and if you have the subject in focus, that is about it....
    in business, if a photographer keep taking cheap assignments, beside don't make much profits, he/she also incur a lot of the opportunity cost,

    such photographers only attract customers who are driven by bargain, there is no such word "loyalty" in their dictionary, customers will not hesitate to go to another photographer if they can save $5.00 or $10.00.


    end of the day, the photographer will find out he/she is worst then a factory worker, they will burnt out very fast, most of them will quit eventually. When newcomer join in, and the circle continue.
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  20. #60
    Senior Member Halfmoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    end of the day, the photographer will find out he/she is worst then a factory worker, they will burnt out very fast, most of them will quit eventually. When newcomer join in, and the circle continue.
    Actually, I was thinking along this line, and this cycle.... for newcomer who try to break in.... some thought they could get experience by lower price, but it ultimately set the trap for himself, as he would find it hard to pull out and raise his price in future.... = only one conclusion.
    Art is perception; Perception is art.

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