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Thread: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

  1. #21
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Sgdevilzz View Post
    I think it's a good start for new photogs who really wants to get into architecture photography. Understand that pros here see this like a peanut pay but for those who wants to get into this specific line of business they may see it as an opportunity.
    Sgdevilzz, maybe let me explain it from another POV, the new photographers can easily take the photographs themselves to get into architecture photography.

    Let's put it another way, if the average starting pay for an engineer is say, $2.4K and you see an ad for people to do ad-hoc engineering job which involves perhaps 2 weeks of work that any other engineer would do, and the ad offers to pay $80-$120 for opportunities and additions to your engineering work portfolio, would you say the same thing? Anyways, it is still a free market, if there are willing takers for the job then good for the TS. Nonetheless I guess the on-lookers can always share their opinions and views and give feedback, and TS always has the right to take their feedback or not.

    Let me start off by saying that I don't think anyone should spout the phrase "pay peanuts you get monkeys".. For one, sometimes the people offering the jobs really don't know and just want to get the photographs (more often than not this is not true though) within their limited budget. Also, it is not impossible to find a decent photographer for a cheap price. After all, the converse isn't true either, just because you throw diamonds in the air doesn't mean you get the cream of the crop. Some professional photographers who aren't that great *can* BS clients who don't know better and command a high fee for the standard of work they do (it works both ways).

    Nonetheless, I always advise friends who dabble in photography jobs to supplement their income to think of the real professionals. Not that these professionals need mollycoddling, but you are literally spoiling the market if you accept jobs well below market rate. I guess when professional photographers complain and make snide remarks about such ongoings, it is in some sense, similar to the numerous complaints that we often see online about foreign workers competing in the job market and accepting lower pay. And that's not even the same thing, since the foreign workers still have a minimum wage requirement, since it is their primary source of income.

    There is also some form of exploitation going on (whether the people offering the jobs know it or not) when people are being charged way below market rate for their photographs. I guess sometimes hobbyists get so carried away with the promise of "addition to portfolio" and "chance to be published and credited" that you fail to examine how much value the additions to your portfolio and how much coverage you'd get from the publications promising fame and fortune in question. Hope this explains where I'm coming from. Cheers.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    When clients can't(or don't want to) pay what I ask for, there's always room for discussion. To be able to negotiate, photographer need to know the objectives of the client well. Client also need to be clear on the requirements. Both client and photographer must be prepared to come to a compromise.

    Ask yourselves.....
    Does the client need photos from 75 locations to achieve your objectives?
    Can the client make do with 20 shots from 5 locations?
    Is the client being realistic about budget and requirements?
    How well does the photographer know the objectives?
    Is the photographer confident of achieving the objectives with a reduction in number of photos?
    Is the photographer willing to take up the job at a loss in the name of portfolio building?

    For someone who wants to do architectural photography decently, he/she's got to know how to plan the job before anything else. Work out the duration and expenditure. For people who offer jobs and pay tokens, do you think you can get someone who actually knows how to do the job? Its not rocket science. Let the market decide. If the client can find people to do work for tokens, fine. We don't have to point fingers at who's exploiting or who's lowballing. There are different levels in the market so people can decide which of these they want to stay in. People who do $80 per job will not be able to sustain long enough to get to the $200 per photo bracket.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by sjackal View Post
    NO!

    In fact it is a very bad start!

    A good start is where you enter doing things the proper way of sending a quotation, discussing client requirement, reckee and research, requotation if need be, discuss rights and liabilites, and contingency plans, then confirming the assignment by way of contract, fulfilling the work, delivery, invoicing, getting paid. Thats where you learn.

    Taking up this offer even a pro will be shooting crap pictures simply because of the lack of understanding in regards to time, weather and coordination.

    Good photos doesnt always happen point and shoot. It takes concept, timing, preparation.

    Might as well go shoot your own leisure stuff. No need to answer to anyone. If $80 can buy you for 3 days, nothing I can say.

    You go rent a camera plus a lens already $100 for first day. So TS is efficient renting your full set of gear plus your labor, time and post processing work. Calculator very good.
    i so agree on this, someone once told me, "hobbyist as good as pro"

    i dont deny that, there are hobbyist out there with better equipment than the pro, and yes sadly there are some hobbyist that are better than the pro.

    but the word professional comes with a catch and the word is RESPONSIBILITY!

    hobbyist do not answer to anyone, they could be doctors, lawyers, engineers and they have the money to buy the best equipment and stuff, but when they shoot is coz they enjoy it

    professionals enjoy their job but also they survive coz of their job, its a very different ball game!

    we've had "hobbyist, street photographers" join us but after they get a taste of real commercial work its very different and they give up.

    customers and aspiring photographers must understand that commercial photography is work and people survive because they work!

    hobbyist can take your $80 coz they dont need to survive on it!

  4. #24

    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    Sgdevilzz, maybe let me explain it from another POV, the new photographers can easily take the photographs themselves to get into architecture photography.

    For one, sometimes the people offering the jobs really don't know and just want to get the photographs (more often than not this is not true though) within their limited budget. .
    so are you saying that you are resigned to this point that you mentioned? that since the client dont know what they want they simple get pay the cheapest rate and just hire someone with a camera?

    your answer should be... if you dont know the difference between a good picture and a not good picture, then just use the money, rent a camera and shoot yourself!

    just one question to ALL CLIENTS, WHY ARE YOU HIRING PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHERS???

    if you think that what we do is easy so you only willing to pay peanuts, then use the money to rent a camera and shoot yourself!

    there has to be a reason why you are wanting to hire a professional photographers right???

    i'm sure you look for a photographer is because you believe that they can do the job that you require!

    there's just so many points to mention that i'm too tired to repeat all the time to "customers"

  5. #25

    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Kit View Post
    When clients can't(or don't want to) pay what I ask for, there's always room for discussion. To be able to negotiate, photographer need to know the objectives of the client well. Client also need to be clear on the requirements. Both client and photographer must be prepared to come to a compromise.

    Ask yourselves.....
    Does the client need photos from 75 locations to achieve your objectives?
    Can the client make do with 20 shots from 5 locations?
    Is the client being realistic about budget and requirements?
    How well does the photographer know the objectives?
    Is the photographer confident of achieving the objectives with a reduction in number of photos?
    Is the photographer willing to take up the job at a loss in the name of portfolio building?

    For someone who wants to do architectural photography decently, he/she's got to know how to plan the job before anything else. Work out the duration and expenditure. For people who offer jobs and pay tokens, do you think you can get someone who actually knows how to do the job? Its not rocket science. Let the market decide. If the client can find people to do work for tokens, fine. We don't have to point fingers at who's exploiting or who's lowballing. There are different levels in the market so people can decide which of these they want to stay in. People who do $80 per job will not be able to sustain long enough to get to the $200 per photo bracket.
    you are right! as i mentioned on my earlier comments, only a professional will do all this

    just do simple math calculations, if you are working in an office job with lets say $1800 per month, whats your hourly rate, then compute the time you need to do the job, then transport and all other 3rd party cost.

    then see if the money is worth it...

    just say you do wedding, you wake up so early just to catch the make up session, consider it as OT if you do normal job

    then you want to charge $200 - $300 only for wedding???

    ugh so many things to point out, sorry

  6. #26
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by mi4nyang View Post
    Hi all,

    I'm looking for 2-3 landscape and architecture photographers to take shots of several places like churches or fort canning. You will need to take photographs that show the best of the location. You will be assigned some places, totaling about 65-75. It is a mini assignment open to all photographers who can take excellent shots of places. Your expected remuneration is approx $80-120 depending on your profile.

    Interested parties please PM me with details of yourself and your experience as well as portfolio.

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by mi4nyang View Post
    Hi guys,

    Sorry for the confusion. Indeed the remuneration seems little to you guys. We are revising it slightly but however unable to afford what you guys are looking for. Therefore, we are looking for people who are keen to build some landscape portfolio while earning petty $. Thanks~
    Just to let you know that shooting at outdoor are subject to weather condition, and to get a best shot of a site, the photographer usually need to visit the venue more than once. (FYI, some places I have shot more than 6-7 times and I still not satisfy with the results)

    experienced photographers know your assignment is a "mission impossible" even you triple the price.

    for those who are keen, they may not know how difficult the task will be, some may quit half way, some may just submit whatever photos they took along the way, just hope you able to find someone really go out all the way to do their best, even spending more time and efforts at their own expenses.

    Good luck.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by red eye View Post
    so are you saying that you are resigned to this point that you mentioned? that since the client dont know what they want they simple get pay the cheapest rate and just hire someone with a camera?

    your answer should be... if you dont know the difference between a good picture and a not good picture, then just use the money, rent a camera and shoot yourself!

    just one question to ALL CLIENTS, WHY ARE YOU HIRING PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHERS???

    if you think that what we do is easy so you only willing to pay peanuts, then use the money to rent a camera and shoot yourself!

    there has to be a reason why you are wanting to hire a professional photographers right???

    i'm sure you look for a photographer is because you believe that they can do the job that you require!

    there's just so many points to mention that i'm too tired to repeat all the time to "customers"
    Did you read the rest of my post.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Hi visit our website, maybe we fit for the job. Cheer ......Photo Village Creation

  9. #29

    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Wah! Pro Photographers will never work for this little. Photographers building portfolio may not even want to put effort in the project.

    Sometimes clients need to know if they want something done properly, tastfully and artistically, they need to pay a proper market fee to photographers. These pro-guys are not someone who just walking around with a camera shooting aimlessly but instead with an objective.

    Clients need to pay well to the right photographer with the right portfolio.

  10. #30
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    The #3 to #29 is taken from a thread listed in service wanted.

    Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Last edited by catchlights; 8th July 2012 at 09:32 AM.
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  11. #31
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Some time when a client looking for photographers to undertake a task, he/she may not know how complexity of the assignment, may not set adequate budget for that, (intentionally or unintentionally)

    do you, as photographer, asking enough questions to find out what the client really want? deliver it in what form? how much the job being offer? any potential issue you may encounter during the shoot? etc...

    and do you ask yourself, are you capable to take up this task, with the skills and gears you have, full fill the requirement, compete it within the dateline?

    or just dive in, shoot first talk later?


    and if you already take up the task, but realise you have underestimate or underquote this assignment;

    will you negotiate with your client for more compensation? or work out a solution?

    or will you complete it within job scope? even you have spend more time and efforts at you own expenses?

    or will you just shoot whatever at it is and give it to the client, tell him this is what his money can get.

    or just leave the job unfinished?
    Shoot to Live, Live to Shoot
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  12. #32

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    I think this post make photographer become a creature that only look at everything only from their perspective.

    One thing is, if someone think they are happy with the pay and happy to see their image credited even not getting paid, it's really none of our business.

    Sure, we want to give photographer a good idea on what is needed to be a pro the rest is up to them.

    One thing for sure is, people who plan for long term learn quickly and know how to separate their ego and business.

    Regards,

    Hart

  13. #33
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by catchlights View Post
    Some time when a client looking for photographers to undertake a task, he/she may not know how complexity of the assignment, may not set adequate budget for that, (intentionally or unintentionally)

    do you, as photographer, asking enough questions to find out what the client really want? deliver it in what form? how much the job being offer? any potential issue you may encounter during the shoot? etc...

    and do you ask yourself, are you capable to take up this task, with the skills and gears you have, full fill the requirement, compete it within the dateline?

    or just dive in, shoot first talk later?


    and if you already take up the task, but realise you have underestimate or underquote this assignment;

    will you negotiate with your client for more compensation? or work out a solution?

    or will you complete it within job scope? even you have spend more time and efforts at you own expenses?

    or will you just shoot whatever at it is and give it to the client, tell him this is what his money can get.

    or just leave the job unfinished?
    Its in the interest of the photographer to find out as much as he/she can about the assignment regardless of how vague the client might appear to be. This is especially important if the client is vague or have no clear directions about how the project should be heading.

    By knowing the work well, the photographer can choose to communicate with the client to avoid potential misunderstanding or to walk away from the work.

    However, if the photographer had chosen to take up the work at an agreed rate, he/she will have to complete the work. Whether to ask for more renumeration depends on what had been delivered. If what was given to the client is within the scope of work detailed in the contract, then its difficult for the photographer to ask for more. Hence, its critical that scope of works are being spelt out in the contract.

    If there is indeed a variation to the scope of work and the photographer thinks he/she deserves more payment, then its best that this is communicated to the client asap.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    May or may not be related...

    Need a photographer to take pics - Singapore other jobs - Gumtree Singapore

    Have some respect for photographers lah. At the same time, I really hope photographers value their time and effort, and walk away from these kinds of silly offers.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by knoxknocks View Post
    May or may not be related...

    Need a photographer to take pics - Singapore other jobs - Gumtree Singapore

    Have some respect for photographers lah. At the same time, I really hope photographers value their time and effort, and walk away from these kinds of silly offers.
    $1-2 per photo!

    It's usually these online portals that offer sh!tty rates and exploit photographers.

  16. #36
    Moderator catchlights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by knoxknocks View Post
    May or may not be related...

    Need a photographer to take pics - Singapore other jobs - Gumtree Singapore

    Have some respect for photographers lah. At the same time, I really hope photographers value their time and effort, and walk away from these kinds of silly offers.
    lol, shooting 10 police stations? make sure the photographers must able to run very very fast, much faster the ah long kaki, and quickly go and collect your money.
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  17. #37
    Senior Member Anson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quote Originally Posted by knoxknocks View Post
    May or may not be related...

    Need a photographer to take pics - Singapore other jobs - Gumtree Singapore

    Have some respect for photographers lah. At the same time, I really hope photographers value their time and effort, and walk away from these kinds of silly offers.
    Quote Originally Posted by foxtwo View Post
    $1-2 per photo!

    It's usually these online portals that offer sh!tty rates and exploit photographers.
    From the link "Picture must be saved in high resolution jpg files of more than 8 mb"... strange... normally people measure by Megapixel (MP) instead of Megabyte (MB)... haha

  18. #38
    Senior Member Kit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    If you need to find assignments online, get yourself a Singpass and access Gebiz. Even there you need to be selective but its better than these depressing job sites.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Landscape and architecture photographer needed

    Quote Originally Posted by sinned79 View Post
    not to forget meals too.

    $2 can only last one meal.

    at least provide transport and meals to sweeten this deal.

    else I think you will get monkey photographers for offering peanuts.

    where u get $2 for a meal bro? meal consist of water.... mineral water also $0.5
    end up u need to bring a heavy water bottle to save the money but the energy used will be = more food intake = more money

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Before you take up a job for making extra pocket money

    Quite standard in the industry..lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anson View Post
    From the link "Picture must be saved in high resolution jpg files of more than 8 mb"... strange... normally people measure by Megapixel (MP) instead of Megabyte (MB)... haha
    Camera with no built-in flash, some lenses, some Lights.
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