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Thread: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

  1. #41

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    "What is criticism? Any opinion against the existent scheme is criticism. Criticism can be of two types €“ constructive and destructive. The purpose of constructive criticism is to improve the present for the good of all. This is a positive approach. Destructive criticism is usually criticism for the sake of criticism. It is a negative approach which is disconcerting at the individual level and destructive in general."

    "It is positive criticism that is the true test of democracy. Merely allowing criticism full rein does not mean that democracy is thriving. Negative criticism is harmful for a democracy as it negates all attempts at good governance. Criticism too must be responsible and serve a definite purpose."

    Nothing wrong with opinions but I personally thought the student's article veered towards negative criticism. I think it's a logical fallacy to claim that because you pay someone a lot of money or 'hire them' they have to come up with all the solutions. Certainly it shouldn't be the case where there are no solutions, but taking it to the other extreme is equally bizarre. The moment you approach anyone with the end already predetermined there is no communication, and anyone, no matter how much you may dislike them, deserves a listen.

    I also disagree with the attitude of the person who replied that 'we are 17, we don't have any solution.' Maybe you don't have a solution but you can try. Is Singapore your home? Do YOU have a stake? What is an age when you can say you have a good solution?

    I certainly hope most people in Singapore don't take the attitude that we pay political leaders a good sum of money so we can stop thinking. Have some confidence in your own mind. Care enough. The fate of Singapore has never lied in the hands of a select few but the collective effort of each and single person that makes it up.

    Let's just put it into perspective. Say you are a photographer whose client paid you a handsome sum of money. You shot a series, and the client isn't pleased. What seems like a reasonable approach, the client telling you what he's not happy about and suggesting some areas of improvement, or the client waving his hands in the air saying that he paid you a lot of money, solve it now and just solve it damn you I'm not a photographer so please don't ask me what to do!
    i disagree and agree with you . it is too much to expect a 17 yr old to come out with answers.... for which probably the DPM is probably clueless himself...in fact it is too much to expect any ordinary person to come out with answers ..and probably he might have thought about it and have no solutions.. maybe its the same for the DPM too ......i think i would like a govt more if when they have no solutions, they honesstly say "we are clueless, we have no solutions" and dare to really ask for solutions and credit the source... whether it be from opposition parties or the citizens.... not saying they are not that way now(i dun really know ) but in my opinion more desirable perhaps....

    i do agree that the use of expletives is wrong and the way that he expressed his opinions is not to be encouraged....and negative criticisms help nothing

    also the government is hired to solve solutions... that is their jobscope....if people think they are not doing their jobs well.. it is natural to be unhappy about it... (of course be civil and if possible polite in expressing it) .. you are not happy with a photographer.. next time you can choose not to hire him again ......a government is not so easy to change (at least in singapore) lol (imagine hiring a bad photograher for a birthday party,but you have no choice but to hire him again for your wedding)...you expect to receive a certain level of service when you pay a certain amount of money , that happens to all service providers, though i agree that you dun just go and say derogatory stuff to the service provider ....though i will not go into the debate whether a change is desirable because it is very subjective and can be based on conjectures....

    the govt is there to support the citizens .....not the other way round...if one pay someone to help find solutions...it is natural to one to find it frustrating when the one who is supposed to come out with solution fails to come out with one...and what more sometimes the solutions will affect not just individuals but a nation....the govt would need the necessary support and criticisms from its citizens , but they complain cannot demand it when the citizens disagree with its policy (ie not blind support)

    so the main problem about the 17yr old is less about his opinion , but more about his way of expressing his opinion and his attitude.. not sure if you agree
    Last edited by cws77; 10th June 2012 at 12:51 PM. Reason: last sentecnce got cut off

  2. #42
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cws77 View Post
    the govt is there to support the citizens .....not the other way round...if one pay someone to help find solutions...it is natural to one to find it frustrating when the one who is supposed to come out with solution fails to come out with one...and what more sometimes the solutions will affect not just individuals but a nation....the govt would need the necessary support and criticisms from its citizens , but they complain cannot demand it when the citizens disagree with its policy (ie not blind support)

    so the main problem about the 17yr old is less about his opinion , but more about his way of expressing his opinion and his attitude.. not sure if you agree
    I don't know. It's a bit of both. Naturally his method of expression and attitude are disagreeable - but bits and pieces of his opinion are also debatable precisely because that attitude.

    I am not the DPM but I think the questions on solutions are really to provoke thought. If someone were to ask me a hard question, for example: How do you lower health costs in Singapore? It's easy to ask the question, but not so easy to also acknowledge that the question has no perfect answer, e.g. you could raise taxes across the board to subsidize healthcare, but these will have other cascading effects, so on so forth. If I thought the person was interested in having a conversation, I might choose to ask if they had something in mind to address the issue, and we could have had a conversation about the various solutions and their pros and cons. And that would be a serious discussion.

    I really don't think the students took the whole thing very seriously if the most popular comment about their aspirations there was about fighting for Teochew porridge in Hougang. If I was the person running the event, which no doubt took a lot of time to arrange, a lot of time to prepare for, I would be flabbergasted. Surely the idea was not for students to sling mud, but to actually exchange ideas, share concerns - genuine concerns AND ideas. I guess as a student you could either take it as a farce and act that way, or you COULD see it as a genuine attempt to reach out and seize that opportunity to reciprocate the effort.

    By the way, I never said that the 17 year old students should have solutions. What I meant is that they should try, if they care. It seems rather weird to use age as a shield, especially when you are coming of age as what is defined legally as an adult. If 17 is not good enough, what age is? 18? What can happen in a year that will warrant this magical transformation? Certainly if any authority tell them to listen because they are just 17 years old and don't know anything, you would see a rather different reaction?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting it all at the gates of the students. It works both ways. In the longer run, hopefully more conversations will take place, and all parties will approach such occurences with an open mind so that the channels of communication will flow. Like diver-hloc says, if attempts are made to obtain feedback, then they should not be taken negatively from the start, no?

    You say that the government is there to support the citizens, not the other way around. Then you say that the government would need the necessary support and criticism from the citizens. Of course I agree with the second point. But I'm afraid I'm not sure what your opinion is.
    Last edited by edutilos-; 10th June 2012 at 02:33 PM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    I don't know. It's a bit of both. Naturally his method of expression and attitude are disagreeable - but bits and pieces of his opinion are also debatable precisely because that attitude.

    I am not the DPM but I think the questions on solutions are really to provoke thought. If someone were to ask me a hard question, for example: How do you lower health costs in Singapore? It's easy to ask the question, but not so easy to also acknowledge that the question has no perfect answer, e.g. you could raise taxes across the board to subsidize healthcare, but these will have other cascading effects, so on so forth. If I thought the person was interested in having a conversation, I might choose to ask if they had something in mind to address the issue, and we could have had a conversation about the various solutions and their pros and cons. And that would be a serious discussion.

    I really don't think the students took the whole thing very seriously if the most popular comment about their aspirations there was about fighting for Teochew porridge in Hougang. If I was the person running the event, which no doubt took a lot of time to arrange, a lot of time to prepare for, I would be flabbergasted. Surely the idea was not for students to sling mud, but to actually exchange ideas, share concerns - genuine concerns AND ideas. I guess as a student you could either take it as a farce and act that way, or you COULD see it as a genuine attempt to reach out and seize that opportunity to reciprocate the effort.

    By the way, I never said that the 17 year old students should have solutions. What I meant is that they should try, if they care. It seems rather weird to use age as a shield, especially when you are coming of age as what is defined legally as an adult. If 17 is not good enough, what age is? 18? What can happen in a year that will warrant this magical transformation? Certainly if any authority tell them to listen because they are just 17 years old and don't know anything, you would see a rather different reaction?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting it all at the gates of the students. It works both ways. In the longer run, hopefully more conversations will take place, and all parties will approach such occurences with an open mind so that the channels of communication will flow. Like diver-hloc says, if attempts are made to obtain feedback, then they should not be taken negatively from the start, no?

    You say that the government is there to support the citizens, not the other way around. Then you say that the government would need the necessary support and criticism from the citizens. Of course I agree with the second point. But I'm afraid I'm not sure what your opinion is.
    i can't say i disagree with you hahaha. ...

    my bad on the point of the support part ..... i dun know how to express it properly also hahaa.....i guess i meant something like it is the duty of the govt to support its citizens not the other way round...the govt shouldn't expect unconditional support from its citizens.. they should "earn" it... but ...by supporting the govt when necessary, the citizens is helping the govt to do its job ... i think my idea is something like that ...

    ot a bit.. talking about highly paid politicians ..i can't help but find the similarity between secret society members and politicians...

    Secret society member says: i collect protection money to protect you from the harm i am gog to give you if you dun give me protection money
    Politican says: my salary is a lot to protect you from the corruption i might engage in which will harm you if you dun give me high salary...

    HAHAHA

  4. #44

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    one possible reason the students may be hesitant to give their opinion could be that they are afraid to "lose face", especially in front of their peers... let's face it, even amongst adults that is a major factor... and it can be easily seen on the net and elsewhere that if people put up a suggestion or solution that may be flawed or incomplete in one way or another, there could be a whole bunch of people who would seize the opportunity to put down the person rather than criticize and potentially improve the idea (like what edutilos said about constructive or destructive criticism)(and yes, even in our beloved forum )... so, with this sort of situation, the students may not want to put up any suggestions or state their opinions, and rather just want the DPM for his opinions...


    so what can anyone do?... it's really up to the individual to want to make full use of any opportunities... people can have this drummed into them in school, but if they don't want to/dare to stand up and be counted, what to do?... it's like how people are remarking about Singapore undergraduates who like to sit quietly in class and who don't like to ask questions or contribute... giving marks for class participation is only gonna get you so far... and even in adulthood, in meetings and brain storming sessions, this can be seen (although here, it could also be due to not wanting to share ideas which might help in their own job prospects)... what can be done to help facilitate exchange would be for person/s leading such events to ask questions back to the group (which is what the DPM actually did), and to be free and open to opinions generated regardless of feasibility or differences of opinion... but ultimately, the people as a whole, you, me, everybody, have to be willing to accept different opinions, and to react to the opinions rather than to the person, whether it be to criticize or to agree...

  5. #45

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cws77 View Post
    also the government is hired to solve solutions... that is their jobscope....if people think they are not doing their jobs well.. it is natural to be unhappy about it... (of course be civil and if possible polite in expressing it) .. you are not happy with a photographer.. next time you can choose not to hire him again ......a government is not so easy to change (at least in singapore) lol (imagine hiring a bad photograher for a birthday party,but you have no choice but to hire him again for your wedding)...you expect to receive a certain level of service when you pay a certain amount of money , that happens to all service providers, though i agree that you dun just go and say derogatory stuff to the service provider ....though i will not go into the debate whether a change is desirable because it is very subjective and can be based on conjectures....

    the govt is there to support the citizens .....not the other way round...if one pay someone to help find solutions...it is natural to one to find it frustrating when the one who is supposed to come out with solution fails to come out with one...and what more sometimes the solutions will affect not just individuals but a nation....the govt would need the necessary support and criticisms from its citizens , but they complain cannot demand it when the citizens disagree with its policy (ie not blind support)
    for me, the Gov is not there to provide solutions but to provide leadership, to make tough decisions, to convince people these decisions have to be made... sure, they may have many ideas to solve problems and stuff, but what is the ability of the few, no matter how intelligent, when compared to the many, the whole population... the thing about "the many" is that everyone has an opinion, and it is the role of the Gov to make the best decision out of the many opinions and many options possible: that is providing leadership... and to be able to plot the course of the nation for the benefit of all: that is about having vision... and it is up to everyone to give them (and to demand the opportunity to be able to give them) feedback and opinions and possible solutions, so that we all can benefit from what is possible when everyone contributes...

  6. #46
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    The days of 'Top Down' governance is no longer acceptable for most people now... Anyone here remember LKY's time... only he talk and you listen... nearly no change to voice your own opinion. Therefore I'm happy that current Minister is open to suggestion from even '17yrs old' instead of just giving us 'his wisdom'.

    Just ask yourself which you like better...

    * Someone who tells you - "I know best, because you paid me so much...."

    Or

    * Someone who tells you - "I may know more, but I'm willing to listen to your opinion... even if you've paid me so much...."

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc
    Just ask yourself which you like better...

    * Someone who tells you - "I know best, because you paid me so much...."

    Or

    * Someone who tells you - "I may know more, but I'm willing to listen to your opinion... even if you've paid me so much...."
    This one got no right or no wrong.
    many "I know more..." country lately like not do very well....
    "I know best..." some country do well (so far) but got others the people starving to death.

  8. #48
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by pansbulcem View Post
    This one got no right or no wrong.
    many "I know more..." country lately like not do very well....
    "I know best..." some country do well (so far) but got others the people starving to death.

    Of course there is no Right or Wrong... real life isn't just Black or White... but many shades of Grey. Which ever choice we make... there will always be a price to be paid... At the end of the day, its a matter of which system you preferred... to be Told What To Do... or could at least add some input/suggestion, on how things could be done.

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  9. #49

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cws77 View Post
    Politican says: my salary is a lot to protect you from the corruption i might engage in which will harm you if you dun give me high salary...
    I see you've not experienced the crippling effect of corruption 1st hand.
    Years ago the starting salary of a police officer of one of our neighbouring countries was around SGD500 (excluding cost-of-living-allowance, which isn't a lot), using the exchange rate of the time. That is really insufficient if you're a cop in a big city. So what can they do but resort to accepting bribes?
    If they were given a better salary there would be less excuse to be on the take.

  10. #50

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    If I thought the person was interested in having a conversation, I might choose to ask if they had something in mind to address the issue, and we could have had a conversation about the various solutions and their pros and cons. And that would be a serious discussion.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting it all at the gates of the students. It works both ways. In the longer run, hopefully more conversations will take place, and all parties will approach such occurences with an open mind so that the channels of communication will flow. Like diver-hloc says, if attempts are made to obtain feedback, then they should not be taken negatively from the start, no?
    IIRC Kishore Mabhubani (his name is hard to spell!) wrote articles critical of the govt during his undergrad years. But someone high up engaged him and managed to turn him from just another critic to actually playing a part in policy making.

  11. #51

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    I see you've not experienced the crippling effect of corruption 1st hand.
    Years ago the starting salary of a police officer of one of our neighbouring countries was around SGD500 (excluding cost-of-living-allowance, which isn't a lot), using the exchange rate of the time. That is really insufficient if you're a cop in a big city. So what can they do but resort to accepting bribes?
    If they were given a better salary there would be less excuse to be on the take.
    So is your opinion that is that if they do not have such money they will resort to corruption?

  12. #52

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    The days of 'Top Down' governance is no longer acceptable for most people now... Anyone here remember LKY's time... only he talk and you listen... nearly no change to voice your own opinion. Therefore I'm happy that current Minister is open to suggestion from even '17yrs old' instead of just giving us 'his wisdom'.

    Just ask yourself which you like better...

    * Someone who tells you - "I know best, because you paid me so much...."

    Or

    * Someone who tells you - "I may know more, but I'm willing to listen to your opinion... even if you've paid me so much...."
    hopefully we will see this reflected in the policies ... and sometimes i think.. it is not only a matter of willing to listen or not... there is sometimes conflicts of interest, when
    the interests of the govt or the political party is not congruent with the interests of the people.. at those times no one will be willing to listen....so i think the greatest challange is how to reconcile the conflict of interest perhaps?????? not sure ....

  13. #53

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    for me, the Gov is not there to provide solutions but to provide leadership, to make tough decisions, to convince people these decisions have to be made... sure, they may have many ideas to solve problems and stuff, but what is the ability of the few, no matter how intelligent, when compared to the many, the whole population... the thing about "the many" is that everyone has an opinion, and it is the role of the Gov to make the best decision out of the many opinions and many options possible: that is providing leadership... and to be able to plot the course of the nation for the benefit of all: that is about having vision... and it is up to everyone to give them (and to demand the opportunity to be able to give them) feedback and opinions and possible solutions, so that we all can benefit from what is possible when everyone contributes...
    maybe my previous opinion sounded too extreme perhaps haha.... but my opinion is that the govt plays a major part of the responsibility in solving the countries's problem ...while it should not be their sole responsibility.. they have to play a major part i guess... the citizens also have a responsibility....no single party should bear the credit or the blame for a country's sucess or failure....the whole nation is responsible perhaps????

  14. #54
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cws77 View Post
    hopefully we will see this reflected in the policies ... and sometimes i think.. it is not only a matter of willing to listen or not... there is sometimes conflicts of interest, when the interests of the govt or the political party is not congruent with the interests of the people.. at those times no one will be willing to listen....so i think the greatest challange is how to reconcile the conflict of interest perhaps?????? not sure ....

    No Government could come out with policy that pleases everyone. They may have policy for the long term benefits for you and your family. But are you willing to wait for it to happen ?? Are you willing to give them the time ?? Conflict of interest is unavoidable since NOT everyone have the same interest.

    Interest of the Govt might not be good for the people.... some might said our FW & FT policy... even HDB's Housing Policy.

    Interest of the people might not be good for the Nation in the long run... look at parts of Euro and their Welfare and Benefits... country already collapse with debt and the 'People' still demand their usual benefits... how are those Govt going to find the money to keep paying Welfare when they could hardly even pay for civil service ?? But yet, the 'Interest' of the people are to try and continue to get all they can.

    Not sure about you... but I don't think even if the Greek were to Vote in an anti-austerity Govt... it would be highly unlikely their lives will return to the good old days of easy money and spending.

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  15. #55
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    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    The student's blog is the result of being spoon fed since he was in kindergarten. People must tell him what to do and what to think. When asked for his opinion.....he is lost.

  16. #56

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cws77 View Post
    So is your opinion that is that if they do not have such money they will resort to corruption?
    One of the principle reasons. Money makes the world go round.
    At the same time, the low pay discourages good, qualified people from joining, hence you get cops who behave little better than thugs.
    In fact, I know of cases where cops actually rob civilians.

  17. #57
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by ricohflex View Post
    The student's blog is the result of being spoon fed since he was in kindergarten. People must tell him what to do and what to think. When asked for his opinion.....he is lost.

    This I agree... and I believe, so were most of us when we were young. I think this has alot to do with us being ASIAN... from young, we were taught to listen and obey by our parents... told what to do... told our parents, elders, teachers, authorities... etc, know better than us. This system produce law abiding citizens and a orderly society... but kill creativity.

    I sincerely hope that the Govt is really deciding that they could no longer run the country the old fashion way of Top Down Governance and this begins with an education system that ask the students 'what they think'... instead of 'how to think'... I had a Geography Teacher from Malaysia, who does this more than 20 years ago in my School days... we were told to close our text book and answer her question as best as we could... give our own opinion on why things happens... told to think for ourselves even if the answer is wrong. Hated her for the 1st 2 months of my classed because I wasn't 'told' the answers anymore... but in the end... one of the Best Teacher I ever had.

    And what most sadden me is the way those students responses when they were asked for their Opinion... not only with our 'hero' here, but also from other students in newspapers and internet report which said that ''they were disappointed that instead of getting an answer from the minister... they were 'forced' to provide an answer"... if these are our future leaders or elite....

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  18. #58

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    One of the principle reasons. Money makes the world go round.
    At the same time, the low pay discourages good, qualified people from joining, hence you get cops who behave little better than thugs.
    In fact, I know of cases where cops actually rob civilians.
    i don't disagree with you on "money makes the world goes round" ...that's why i said there was a similarity between politicians and secret society members...
    "money makes the world go round" ......same for both politicians and secret society members...

  19. #59

    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    No Government could come out with policy that pleases everyone. They may have policy for the long term benefits for you and your family. But are you willing to wait for it to happen ?? Are you willing to give them the time ?? Conflict of interest is unavoidable since NOT everyone have the same interest.

    Interest of the Govt might not be good for the people.... some might said our FW & FT policy... even HDB's Housing Policy.

    Interest of the people might not be good for the Nation in the long run... look at parts of Euro and their Welfare and Benefits... country already collapse with debt and the 'People' still demand their usual benefits... how are those Govt going to find the money to keep paying Welfare when they could hardly even pay for civil service ?? But yet, the 'Interest' of the people are to try and continue to get all they can.

    Not sure about you... but I don't think even if the Greek were to Vote in an anti-austerity Govt... it would be highly unlikely their lives will return to the good old days of easy money and spending.
    i never said conflict of interest is avoidable....i apologise if i have given that impression... but the key is to prevent certain parties to advance their interest of the other party...
    how do you thik the govt is doing it well in the current situation? you are assuming they may have policy long term benefits ...someone can say they don't ...do they have? seriously i dun know..

    and i dun agree that interest of the people is not good for the nation in the long run.. what is a nation but its people???? interest of the people does not equate to the "usual benefitds" that you describe...also...why do you think country collapse in the first place... is it due to the country advancing the interest of the "people" in expense of the "nation"? if not i dun quite see your point....

  20. #60
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: After the lady vandal, this rude student next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cws77 View Post
    and i dun agree that interest of the people is not good for the nation in the long run.. what is a nation but its people???? interest of the people does not equate to the "usual benefitds" that you describe...also...why do you think country collapse in the first place... is it due to the country advancing the interest of the "people" in expense of the "nation"? if not i dun quite see your point....

    Simply put, The People, aka Voting Citizen, commonly and expectedly... votes in Govt for their own 'Interest'... that interest could be Democracy, Justice, Personality, Trust... etc. And at many times... Politicians in many fully democratic countries need to get votes by promising more and more inorder to get voted. That includes more Welfare or Benefits... shorter working hours and more Annual Leaves for employees... in other places.... cheaper Oil or Gas... etc. If not more... at least maintaining what is already given.

    The problem is... with everyone expecting some new and better benefits at every Election even when those Benefits/Welfare/Oil or Gas cannot be gave out freely anymore... any Politicians planning to reform will not likely to get voted in simply because he/she is threatening the 'Interest' of the people.... much like if you 'have' to pay my 2 annual holidays (some European Countries and employer does that)... and now you threaten to stop doing so... I could return the threat by saying ''I'll Vote For The Other Guy/Parties'' or find another Job.

    Using Greece as an example... they are known to have lots of benefits and welfare even when their country spents alot of their GDP to give it to them, even with borrowed money. For Right or Wrong... the Greek have a reputation of being 'lazy' and laid back in Europe. And we know what is the result since the Euro Zone crisis had begun...

    To me... I too would like the Govt... any Govt, to put the interest of the people 1st... but is the people's interest always good and sustainable in the long run. Will the People always be willing to put their interest aside for the benefits of their Nation when their Country need it ??

    Scuba & Father... For Life

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