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Thread: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

  1. #81
    Member Sispecho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309

    Laws will definitely change too.
    Yes, bur ever wondered how they change? They change through social pressure too. In our case, they can be reviewed in the Parliament, where the MPs represent the people. People elect their MPs to make these decisions so they are supposed to listen to the people.

    And when people dnt feel represented, they do what they can to get an audience. Do the people in Singapore feel that they are represented in Parliament?
    Last edited by Sispecho; 1st June 2012 at 07:50 PM.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho

    Yes, bur ever wondered how they change? They change through social pressure too. In our case, they can be reviewed in the Parliament, where the MPs represent the people. People elect their MPs to make these decisions so they are supposed to listen to the people.

    And when people dnt feel represented, they do what they can to get an audience. Do the people in Singapore feel that they are represented in Parliament?
    Change takes time

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309

    Change takes time
    "The future depends on what you do in the present"

    -Mahatma Ghandi

  4. #84
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho

    "The future depends on what you do in the present"

    -Mahatma Ghandi
    Hah we don't need Ghandi say this its given fact just worded nicely :-) you writing you're own destiny everything you do will affect your or there's futures :-) collectively we all affect what the world will look like in the future for all the decision we will do today :-)
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  5. #85
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho

    Yes, bur ever wondered how they change? They change through social pressure too. In our case, they can be reviewed in the Parliament, where the MPs represent the people. People elect their MPs to make these decisions so they are supposed to listen to the people.

    And when people dnt feel represented, they do what they can to get an audience. Do the people in Singapore feel that they are represented in Parliament?
    I agree through times we may need to change some of the law.... But not all there are laws that opt to stay coz its highly will create disorder. Were not saying Singaporean not ready for it but with mix race and religion some restrain needed to keep the harmony in place... Just look around you see those countries with so much freedom of speech it is abused badly...... Illegal gathering law I find it harsh but agree with it look at other democratic countries these get used all the time it's very disruptive to economy imagine if demonstrators will demonstrate in CDB for weeks or months what will happen to Singapore economy? Investor will run off and business will do under. Singapore is small country some law are created not to disrupt progress.

    I am not pro govt or opposition just looking at it from a different perspective :-) cheers!
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  6. #86

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    nicely said bro Albertri.

    they teach Social Studies in schools these days that cover the reasons why investors invest in Singapore more than other nations. Simply because we're a peaceful country with no disruption to the economy, compared to the other nations in the region.

    certain laws need to remain.

    and i don't agree with stifling freedom of speech. but do it online, and do it in a manner that doesn't disrupt public activities. it's good to have a speakers' corner to allow people to speak freely.

    Look at the USA, champion of the idea of "Freedom of Speech". look at the state their country is in now. look at the western government, the so-called "FIRST WORLD" government certain political parties are trying to emulate. is that what we want for Singapore?

    to be exact, the citizens in the US are blaming the US Government for their own greed. but it doesn't mean the US Government is not at fault. they're at fault for creating this situation through their own greed as well. and you have disruptive rallies and demonstrations because of this.

    here in Singapore, the same thing is already here but on a smaller scale. the government has trained us all to be well-educated and to be demanding. but the people have demanded what? more than what we deserve! people demand for Wants, not what they Need. and because of that we want things done our way, to get what we want. but those citizens fail to see the bigger picture.

    and it's gotten so out of hand, that everyone blames the Singapore Government not for their faults, but for their own personal mistakes. you see people who go bankrupt from a failed business, people who pass away through an unnatural death.... and people point the finger at the government. really, what is this rubbish?

    then when they refuse to do menial jobs, and foreigners need to be brought in to take over (Hospitality, Service, etc) the people complain. who's at fault in the first place? i remember posing a question to my peers in school and asked if they would be a waiter if times were bad and they had no money.

    their collective answer: "NO. i'd rather be served than to serve others". even among my friends from lower education backgrounds. and then people start to protest this means of getting workers. i mean like, whose fault is it that you don't want to do it? and now you're all up in arms because of this?

    I already saw this coming 8 years ago as a waiter and studying for my diploma. i saw how they were bringing in more foreigners. in there, 1 out of every 7 people was a local.

    so if you want to blame anyone, blame yourselves for your choice.

  7. #87
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    nicely said bro Albertri.

    they teach Social Studies in schools these days that cover the reasons why investors invest in Singapore more than other nations. Simply because we're a peaceful country with no disruption to the economy, compared to the other nations in the region.

    certain laws need to remain.

    and i don't agree with stifling freedom of speech. but do it online, and do it in a manner that doesn't disrupt public activities. it's good to have a speakers' corner to allow people to speak freely.

    Look at the USA, champion of the idea of "Freedom of Speech". look at the state their country is in now. look at the western government, the so-called "FIRST WORLD" government certain political parties are trying to emulate. is that what we want for Singapore?

    to be exact, the citizens in the US are blaming the US Government for their own greed. but it doesn't mean the US Government is not at fault. they're at fault for creating this situation through their own greed as well. and you have disruptive rallies and demonstrations because of this.

    here in Singapore, the same thing is already here but on a smaller scale. the government has trained us all to be well-educated and to be demanding. but the people have demanded what? more than what we deserve! people demand for Wants, not what they Need. and because of that we want things done our way, to get what we want. but those citizens fail to see the bigger picture.

    and it's gotten so out of hand, that everyone blames the Singapore Government not for their faults, but for their own personal mistakes. you see people who go bankrupt from a failed business, people who pass away through an unnatural death.... and people point the finger at the government. really, what is this rubbish?

    then when they refuse to do menial jobs, and foreigners need to be brought in to take over (Hospitality, Service, etc) the people complain. who's at fault in the first place? i remember posing a question to my peers in school and asked if they would be a waiter if times were bad and they had no money.

    their collective answer: "NO. i'd rather be served than to serve others". even among my friends from lower education backgrounds. and then people start to protest this means of getting workers. i mean like, whose fault is it that you don't want to do it? and now you're all up in arms because of this?

    I already saw this coming 8 years ago as a waiter and studying for my diploma. i saw how they were bringing in more foreigners. in there, 1 out of every 7 people was a local.

    so if you want to blame anyone, blame yourselves for your choice.
    Cant comment anymore Kei on your response as I dont have the right to mentle with your countires affairs even I'm a PR here I am still labeled by others as FT here. :-) But to me you guys are one of the luckiest folks in Asia I actually envy you and hope my country's govt is half as good are yours. Not saying your govt is perfect there's no such thing but they made a lot of good decision and made some bad ones too.
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  8. #88

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    Cant comment anymore Kei on your response as I dont have the right to mentle with your countires affairs even I'm a PR here I am still labeled by others as FT here. :-) But to me you guys are one of the luckiest folks in Asia I actually envy you and hope my country's govt is half as good are yours. Not saying your govt is perfect there's no such thing but they made a lot of good decision and made some bad ones too.
    actually bro, it's a good thing to have external unbiased and unprejudiced views from an external source.

  9. #89
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    People who crib about government and addicted to spoon feeding should get a reality check and try living in 3rd world countries for a while.

    Forget benefits, life can end any day in those countries.

    Sg is a heaven comparatively. I don't need benefits but compete and challenge status quo and make a living and still come home alive.

    Stop cribbing, get out, study, work, do something. Empty mind, devils home.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by lotus80 View Post
    People who crib about government and addicted to spoon feeding should get a reality check and try living in 3rd world countries for a while.

    Forget benefits, life can end any day in those countries.

    Sg is a heaven comparatively. I don't need benefits but compete and challenge status quo and make a living and still come home alive.

    Stop cribbing, get out, study, work, do something. Empty mind, devils home.
    nicely said.

    but you just asked for some spoon-feeding in Newbies' Corner yourself

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309

    nicely said.

    but you just asked for some spoon-feeding in Newbies' Corner yourself
    Spoon feeding as in people addictrd to govt benefits and still not content., always asking more.

    Baby bonus
    Hdb subsidy
    Medical subsidy
    Children schooling and admission priority
    Student benefits
    ....

    3rd world country govt don't even give clean water or electricity and forget human rights.

    That way, sg is heaven, but I am sure high cost of living is taking a toll on everyone, local or foreigner.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    I think this sort of FT issue only happen when the country is not doing well. In the US this is very evident during bad times, in Japan I seen some of these propaganda against non-locals. In EU countries also I heard during bad times starts retrenching FT etc...

    Also same in Sg during the so called iron bowl time did anyone care if there's a lot of FTs? Same goes in other countries.... For China no so sure they seems to be against the normal norm and their reason is different from SG... for them they find these non-locals not competing with them but more nuisance
    yeah, it's always easy to blame outsiders whenever there's any problems...

  13. #93

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by stuck View Post
    actually saw this interesting statistic in the papers recently... PRC have almost the same number of foreigners living there as Singapore (~1million). Only difference is China has 1.2billion citizens while we have ~3plus million. So all things considered Singaporeans on the whole are quite tolerant of foreigners. Only recent trends of exorbitant housing, public transport fiascos have pushed some ppl over the edge.

    Either that or most Singaporeans are cowards, only dare to rant & rave in online forums agst foreigners but when minister come around "all is fine dear minister!"
    actually, the problem China has, and that is quite commonly reported by their media, is the rural population moving to the big cities, straining the housing supply, transportation, schools, medical facilities, etc... sounds familiar?

  14. #94

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by skeeg View Post
    If you don't mind me asking sir/ma'am, is it illegal to stage a rally here in SG or is there some kind of a "ban" on public protest? Usually in other countries, when citizens have complains and frustrations in their gov't, they go out and rally to express themselves. It's the very essence of democracy. Well even in those non-democratic countries, the citizens still rally against their gov't. I haven't seen that here in SG, or it's happening but not broadcasted in the news?

    I'm just curious.
    there's a park in Singapore where Singaporeans are free to hold open talks and demonstrations, as long as the participants are orderly and do not comment on things that would rouse community disquiet like racial or religious issues... don't know how familiar you are to the city, but it's at Hong Lim Park, now dubbed Speaker's Corner... it's near Chinatown, so it's quite centrally located, has numerous buses available, and is also near to a commuter train line... there are no fees, and there's no need to get a license from the authorities (although organizers do have to inform the National Parks Board, which administers the park)...

    most of the time, it's very underutilized... what does the lack of utilization mean?... up to interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho View Post
    Yes, bur ever wondered how they change? They change through social pressure too. In our case, they can be reviewed in the Parliament, where the MPs represent the people. People elect their MPs to make these decisions so they are supposed to listen to the people.

    And when people dnt feel represented, they do what they can to get an audience. Do the people in Singapore feel that they are represented in Parliament?
    and yet the Speaker's Corner stands empty...
    Last edited by theRBK; 2nd June 2012 at 11:21 PM.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    but it's a good thing. a small group of people innocently waving placards and signboards can easily turn into a mob of angry protesters.

    happened in history many times in many different countries.
    in many of those countries worldwide where people are "free" to hold demonstrations whenever and wherever they like, somehow, while the majority of participants are peacefully marching, it seems that there will always be small groups of people who will wreck havoc, causing the riot police to come down hard on all the participants... and the media laps it up, and politicians and various interests groups would start throwing recriminations at one another... a coincidence this always happens? or is it political theatre set up behind the scenes...

  16. #96
    Senior Member albertri's Avatar
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    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    in many of those countries worldwide where people are "free" to hold demonstrations whenever and wherever they like, somehow, while the majority of participants are peacefully marching, it seems that there will always be small groups of people who will wreck havoc, causing the riot police to come down hard on all the participants... and the media laps it up, and politicians and various interests groups would start throwing recriminations at one another... a coincidence this always happens? or is it political theatre set up behind the scenes...
    That's why I am glad there's a law in Singapore to prohibit such gathering... yes we all know it's freedom of speech and expression but somehow and someone will use it to thier own advantage or agenda... so for me better dont have this right in the 1st place if no one can use it wisely :-). Any power and freedom if not used wisely could turn in bad things :-(.
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  17. #97
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    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    in many of those countries worldwide where people are "free" to hold demonstrations whenever and wherever they like, somehow, while the majority of participants are peacefully marching, it seems that there will always be small groups of people who will wreck havoc, causing the riot police to come down hard on all the participants... and the media laps it up, and politicians and various interests groups would start throwing recriminations at one another... a coincidence this always happens? or is it political theatre set up behind the scenes...
    And these small groups of people are sometimes doing it with an agenda to undermine the peaceful protests dont you feel? And democracy/freedom of speech/ dont necessarily involve only gathering of people holding placards and such. It does not only have to be that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    there's a park in Singapore where Singaporeans are free to hold open talks and demonstrations, as long as the participants are orderly and do not comment on things that would rouse community disquiet like racial or religious issues... don't know how familiar you are to the city, but it's at Hong Lim Park, now dubbed Speaker's Corner... it's near Chinatown, so it's quite centrally located, has numerous buses available, and is also near to a commuter train line... there are no fees, and there's no need to get a license from the authorities (although organizers do have to inform the National Parks Board, which administers the park)...

    most of the time, it's very underutilized... what does the lack of utilization mean?... up to interpretation

    and yet the Speaker's Corner stands empty...
    I think Speaker's Corner is a very calculated move from the incumbent. Its a victory in sorts for the pro-Freedom of speech camp, because it marks a first. But its also a win for the incumbent. It satisfies the freedom of speech camp, but outreach is limited. And they have got other ways and means to 'you know...'

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    yeah, it's always easy to blame outsiders whenever there's any problems...
    Because its the insiders you have to take care for first.

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    Cant comment anymore Kei on your response as I dont have the right to mentle with your countires affairs even I'm a PR here I am still labeled by others as FT here. :-) But to me you guys are one of the luckiest folks in Asia I actually envy you and hope my country's govt is half as good are yours. Not saying your govt is perfect there's no such thing but they made a lot of good decision and made some bad ones too.
    it doesnt matter if you are a PR, citizen or what. You can always give your comments. Seriously man it does not really matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    That's why I am glad there's a law in Singapore to prohibit such gathering... yes we all know it's freedom of speech and expression but somehow and someone will use it to thier own advantage or agenda... so for me better dont have this right in the 1st place if no one can use it wisely :-). Any power and freedom if not used wisely could turn in bad things :-(.
    But you forget that you are giving someone else that kind of power to be abused.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    nicely said bro Albertri.

    they teach Social Studies in schools these days that cover the reasons why investors invest in Singapore more than other nations. Simply because we're a peaceful country with no disruption to the economy, compared to the other nations in the region.

    certain laws need to remain.

    and i don't agree with stifling freedom of speech. but do it online, and do it in a manner that doesn't disrupt public activities. it's good to have a speakers' corner to allow people to speak freely.

    Look at the USA, champion of the idea of "Freedom of Speech". look at the state their country is in now. look at the western government, the so-called "FIRST WORLD" government certain political parties are trying to emulate. is that what we want for Singapore?

    to be exact, the citizens in the US are blaming the US Government for their own greed. but it doesn't mean the US Government is not at fault. they're at fault for creating this situation through their own greed as well. and you have disruptive rallies and demonstrations because of this.

    here in Singapore, the same thing is already here but on a smaller scale. the government has trained us all to be well-educated and to be demanding. but the people have demanded what? more than what we deserve! people demand for Wants, not what they Need. and because of that we want things done our way, to get what we want. but those citizens fail to see the bigger picture.

    and it's gotten so out of hand, that everyone blames the Singapore Government not for their faults, but for their own personal mistakes. you see people who go bankrupt from a failed business, people who pass away through an unnatural death.... and people point the finger at the government. really, what is this rubbish?

    then when they refuse to do menial jobs, and foreigners need to be brought in to take over (Hospitality, Service, etc) the people complain. who's at fault in the first place? i remember posing a question to my peers in school and asked if they would be a waiter if times were bad and they had no money.

    their collective answer: "NO. i'd rather be served than to serve others". even among my friends from lower education backgrounds. and then people start to protest this means of getting workers. i mean like, whose fault is it that you don't want to do it? and now you're all up in arms because of this?

    I already saw this coming 8 years ago as a waiter and studying for my diploma. i saw how they were bringing in more foreigners. in there, 1 out of every 7 people was a local.

    so if you want to blame anyone, blame yourselves for your choice.
    People invest in Singapore also, because 1) gov is pro-business. 2) Singapore does not have strong 'people power' to request for a bigger piece of the pie. 3) Even if they did, Gov is there to support the business owners - by giving them cheap labour.

    What we want here is to have equal rules for everyone, not necessarily an all-knowing all-perfect government. If the Government wants the people to stay competitive, by being cheaper, faster and better without resorting to strikes, then they have to lead by example. We want ministers to also be cheaper, faster and better through, without resorting to stifling the avenues for winning the hearts and minds of the people. Fair ain't it?

    If you want to bring in the Foreigners to do the job, fine. Just make sure that Wages aren't shrinking, and that they are paid MORE than what the locals are getting to put the locals at a level-playing field, considering that they have NS commitments and all. Then thats fair enough isn't it? If the locals still dont want to do it then fine (renders your point valid), but there should be NO REASON at all to decrease wages because in the long run, it will not be sustenable economically, because it puts locals at a disadvantage. Because the foreigners live with two viable economic eco-systems for them (that of Singapore and of their home-country) but Singaporeans have to live in Singapore. the 500SGD foreigners get to save and maybe start a business back home for their retirement may not be enough for us for our retirement. If you still dont get what I mean and still blame Singaporeans for shunning cleaning jobs and such, then I challenge you to become a cleaner and work to support your family. See if that works for you. Or if thats too much, take only 600 of your disposable income and try to settle your household finances. It will be very tight I can assure you.

    I dont know what Singapore will become. I just hope that there is still a place in Singapore society for my daughter, before they bring in the rich sons of foreign countries here to push my daughter lower down the demographics. And right now, Im doing what i can to fight for that place.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by albertri View Post
    I agree through times we may need to change some of the law.... But not all there are laws that opt to stay coz its highly will create disorder. Were not saying Singaporean not ready for it but with mix race and religion some restrain needed to keep the harmony in place... Just look around you see those countries with so much freedom of speech it is abused badly...... Illegal gathering law I find it harsh but agree with it look at other democratic countries these get used all the time it's very disruptive to economy imagine if demonstrators will demonstrate in CDB for weeks or months what will happen to Singapore economy? Investor will run off and business will do under. Singapore is small country some law are created not to disrupt progress.

    I am not pro govt or opposition just looking at it from a different perspective :-) cheers!
    I am aware of that perspective. And if our ministers are really good and the best like they are paid to be, then they will find the answers to it dont they? If not, dont pretend to be the best. What Im saying is that

    1) Like we do not have to resort to other foreign countries for basic necessity (water - Malaysia) we should work towards not resorting to foreign capital as well. The G-I-C model is good, making investments overseas, and putting Singapore on the globe, but its activities are somewhat under a veil. Nobody knows about anything. We should restructure and base our economic model on exporting National products. We should not rely on SMEs because its the government who has accumulated the surplus from the people through various means. How the returns are being distributed? Now, nobody knows.

    2) Having a blackout on the discussion about race does not solve anything. No news does not necessarily mean good news.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Anti-foreigner sentiments rising in China...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho View Post
    If you still dont get what I mean and still blame Singaporeans for shunning cleaning jobs and such, then I challenge you to become a cleaner and work to support your family. See if that works for you. Or if thats too much, take only 600 of your disposable income and try to settle your household finances. It will be very tight I can assure you.
    i get your point. do you get mine? if it boils down to "only this job is left. take it of leave it." i can assure you that most Singaporeans will leave it, choosing pride over common sense

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