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Thread: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

  1. #41
    Member Sispecho's Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    help to check photgrapher leh....

    so all clubsnapper can go chiong there...

  2. #42

    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho View Post
    Got check out the Gini Coefficient of us and them? not same hor by a lot! What it means roughly is this...


    For eg.

    In SG:
    Bus fare: $1
    Bus driver get :20 cents of $1
    Bus company gets 80 cents of $1

    In Finland (ang mo countries)
    Bus fare: $1
    Bus driver get: 40 cents of $1
    Bus company gets 60 cents of $1

    Money is not distributed as evenly in Singapore as in other ang mo countries.
    minimum bus fares in

    Country Local Currancy S$ Equivalent
    Norway 30.00NOK 6.41
    Denmark 24.00DKK 5.26
    Finland 1.84 3
    Sweden 22.00SEK 3.93
    (compiled from various sources on the web)

    maximum possible bus fare including transfers in Sg S$1.96... whatever the Gini, that is a huge increase in revenue... and once fixed cost such as fleet maintenance and reinvestments are taken into account, and these do not rise with increase of fares, it would actually be easier to improve on Gini numbers (ie. cost of spares and buying new buses do not need to be increased with fare increases, so with steady capital costs, increases in revenue can go directly to increase in pay and thus actually benefit Gini numbers)...

  3. #43
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho View Post
    help to check photgrapher leh....

    so all clubsnapper can go chiong there...
    I suspect based on the number of articles flying on the Internet about cheap photographers with no skill, the range will vary quite a bit, just like it does in Singapore.

  4. #44
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    minimum bus fares in

    Country Local Currancy S$ Equivalent
    Norway 30.00NOK 6.41
    Denmark 24.00DKK 5.26
    Finland €1.84 3
    Sweden 22.00SEK 3.93
    (compiled from various sources on the web)

    maximum possible bus fare including transfers in Sg S$1.96... whatever the Gini, that is a huge increase in revenue... and once fixed cost such as fleet maintenance and reinvestments are taken into account, and these do not rise with increase of fares, it would actually be easier to improve on Gini numbers (ie. cost of spares and buying new buses do not need to be increased with fare increases, so with steady capital costs, increases in revenue can go directly to increase in pay and thus actually benefit Gini numbers)...
    Well, to be fair, in reference back to the article, Prof Tommy Koh was making a few points - it started with comparing the per capita income, which was comparable across all the countries. The Gini was then brought in, along with the wages of cleaners and bus drivers. I believe his intended takeaway was that there was a need to push up the wages of the low-wage workers - be it through minimum wage, reduction of cheap supply of foreign labour, etc..

    The trouble is that I keep seeing a load of people just zooming in on the wages of the low-wage workers (cleaners/bus-drivers) and missing the point altogether. I don't think the intention is to say that the wages overseas are very beautiful and great, but that seems to be a rather popular takeaway.

  5. #45

    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    Well, to be fair, in reference back to the article, Prof Tommy Koh was making a few points - it started with comparing the per capita income, which was comparable across all the countries. The Gini was then brought in, along with the wages of cleaners and bus drivers. I believe his intended takeaway was that there was a need to push up the wages of the low-wage workers - be it through minimum wage, reduction of cheap supply of foreign labour, etc..

    The trouble is that I keep seeing a load of people just zooming in on the wages of the low-wage workers (cleaners/bus-drivers) and missing the point altogether. I don't think the intention is to say that the wages overseas are very beautiful and great, but that seems to be a rather popular takeaway.
    and my point is not to say that cost of living in those places are high, just that the higher wages are funded by higher costs (ie. to pay people more, their services have to cost more as well, which actually is also one form of increasing productivity at least in money terms)... something has to give

  6. #46
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    and my point is not to say that cost of living in those places are high, just that the higher wages are funded by higher costs (ie. to pay people more, their services have to cost more as well, which actually is also one form of increasing productivity at least in money terms)... something has to give
    Haha, yes, of course. Just thought I'd take the chance to raise the point in my last post.

  7. #47
    Member Sispecho's Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    and my point is not to say that cost of living in those places are high, just that the higher wages are funded by higher costs (ie. to pay people more, their services have to cost more as well, which actually is also one form of increasing productivity at least in money terms)... something has to give
    Something has to give and dont think that prices are the only way. Wage restructuring can 'give' as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by theRBK View Post
    minimum bus fares in


    maximum possible bus fare including transfers in Sg S$1.96... whatever the Gini, that is a huge increase in revenue... and once fixed cost such as fleet maintenance and reinvestments are taken into account, and these do not rise with increase of fares, it would actually be easier to improve on Gini numbers (ie. cost of spares and buying new buses do not need to be increased with fare increases, so with steady capital costs, increases in revenue can go directly to increase in pay and thus actually benefit Gini numbers)...
    Pardon me if im asking you to spoonfeed me. but i refer to this...

    "whatever the Gini, that is a huge increase in revenue"

    what does 'that' referring to? I only see prices as you listed.

    "can go directly to increase in pay and thus actually benefit Gini numbers)..."

    Well they can go to wages. Senior Management bonuses are also wages arent they?

  8. #48

    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho View Post
    Something has to give and dont think that prices are the only way. Wage restructuring can 'give' as well.
    "restructuring" meaning driving down management pay to boost rank and file pay?... are the standards of pay of the management in the public bus operators in Singapore higher than those of the four countries cited?... if not, increasing rank and file pay to the standards of the four countries while management pay sags below that of the same four countries, is that really equitable?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho View Post
    "whatever the Gini, that is a huge increase in revenue"

    what does 'that' referring to? I only see prices as you listed.
    let me phrase that better: a change in the bus fare to those standards of the four countries cited from our current standards, coupled with a more or less constant ridership (there's no cheaper transport option is there, besides walking and cycling, of course assuming rises also in train and cab fares to match those of the cited four countries, which would allow higher pay for those in their respective industries), would be "that" huge increase in revenue

    Quote Originally Posted by Sispecho View Post
    "can go directly to increase in pay and thus actually benefit Gini numbers)..."

    Well they can go to wages. Senior Management bonuses are also wages arent they?
    yes, possibly everyone else's wages... so if our fare structures are as high as those countries and we still pay our bus drivers at the current rate, then the public bus operators really have nothing much with which to defend their rate of bus driver pay
    Last edited by theRBK; 21st May 2012 at 12:53 AM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Time to move to norway and get a temp roof over my head for 3 years there. I will ask my family in singapore to mail me instant noodles to save cost on meal. Then i transfer $$$ back for my family to build a nice house in m'sia and we move there to stay. While i work traveling pass the causeway everyday.

    Joke aside, the cost of getting a roof over our head is 1 thing. The thing i am more worried about is our cpf. How much faith do you guys really have to say the savings inside are safe. Ever think if there is a chance like the 1 below?

    "sg people are getting good medical benefits and as such, people are living longer and longer. We have a compulsary plan for you as one of those chosen to be able to divide your saving into 70years (130-60) given to you each year a part of your saving till you reach 130years old."
    Last edited by RubbishBin1987; 21st May 2012 at 01:47 AM.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by RubbishBin1987
    Time to move to norway and get a temp roof over my head for 3 years there. I will ask my family in singapore to mail me instant noodles to save cost on meal. Then i transfer $$$ back for my family to build a nice house in m'sia and we move there to stay. While i work traveling pass the causeway everyday.

    Joke aside, the cost of getting a roof over our head is 1 thing. The thing i am more worried about is our cpf. How much faith do you guys really have to say the savings inside are safe. Ever think if there is a chance like the 1 below?

    "sg people are getting good medical benefits and as such, people are living longer and longer. We have a compulsary plan for you as one of those chosen to be able to divide your saving into 70years (130-60) given to you each year a part of your saving till you reach 130years old."
    You're still young. Stop thinking like those coffeeshop uncles speculating over things they believe they understand

  11. #51
    Member Bukitimah's Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    When we are not put in a situation, it is very difficult to understand those 'trapped' and suffer. It is always easy to say lots of theory but do we really understand?

    There are many families here in Singapore that live with as little as $600 per month or less (disposable income). If we are in the 1st world or even developed world, would we leave behind these group? They didn't choose or plan their way there. It is how our society makes it that way.

    While it is true many 'Singaporean' live in the 1st world environment and lifestyle and it is a great place to live. That is when you are on top, maybe the 20% of our population. The middle group struggle to keep up and support this 20% and get some left overs. Look down at the botton 15%, they are 'better off' than their neighbours who have to travel here to earn a living.

    It is timely to look at minimum wages and pay enough for these people to take on just 1 job to live a decent life. However, if we increase their pay and at the same time increase the cost of living, then it is basically introducing inflation.

    We paid top $$$$ for the best brains in the world remember, so I am sure they have effective solutions and it should not take that long.

  12. #52
    Senior Member UncleFai's Avatar
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    You are already too late buddy... Millions from Africa, and poorer parts of Asia already ahead of you.

  13. #53
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    I'm all for rising the pay for lower paid workers.... I, myself, is but a lowly Blue-Collar worker. But no one had answer my question on Post #9.

    Should the pay of our lower income worker be rised dramatically.... how do you think the higer cost will be offset ?? Anyone here wants to bet S'porean will be lining up to complain about the higher cost for transportation, HDB Cleaning charges, coffee price... etc.

    Look at how much grumbling there was, when Coffee Association rise 10-20 cents for a cup of coffee... you think S'porean could accept a rise of $30-40 dollars per house whole for HDB Charges... or that the minimum bus/mrt ride will be $2-3 ?? You sure someone is willing to lose 1 or more GRC at the next GE ??


    I truly have no idea if people from Denmark, is or is not, the happiest in the World... or anyway else in this World. But I know we are here, in little S'pore, and unless you can get out of here... things would unlikely change at the speed you would like. So... pack your bags and said goodbye... do this for the benefits to yourself or your family. Like a good friend of mine said... surely can come as a tourist back to S'pore working as a cleaner in Denmark.

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  14. #54
    Senior Member UncleFai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc
    Should the pay of our lower income worker be rised dramatically.... how do you think the higer cost will be offset ?? Anyone here wants to bet S'porean will be lining up to complain about the higher cost for transportation, HDB Cleaning charges, coffee price... etc.
    It all depends on who gets the raise and but how much. If we confine ourselves to the lowest salary group, then the impact can be contained. For one drawing $800 a month, a $200 increase to $1000 would be a drastic 20% pay raise. But such a person will most likely be working in an area that accounts for a tiny fraction of the Consumer Price Index. Of course, we need to prevent their bosses from using it as an excuse to jack up prices.

    Also, many in the manufacturing and construction industry use cheap foreign labour. This is not reflective of the true cost of their products. Having a multinational set up a factory here that employs 80% foreign labour at $800 a month so that they can sell cheap to the world is not the way we should go. It is something like borrowing from Ah Long to make your wedding look grand - if you can't afford it, then do something else.

    And yes, we need construction workers here to build our house and factory. But this industry is addicted to cheap labour, and in any case the cost of construction is small compared to the price of the land and the developer and housing agents' profit margins.
    Last edited by UncleFai; 21st May 2012 at 08:55 AM.

  15. #55

    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    It all depends on who gets the raise and but how much. If we confine ourselves to the lowest salary group, then the impact can be contained. For one drawing $800 a month, a $200 increase to $1000 would be a drastic 20% pay raise. But such a person will most likely be working in an area that accounts for a tiny fraction of the Consumer Price Index. Of course, we need to prevent their bosses from using it as an excuse to jack up prices.
    Well Malaysia recently announced min wage of RM900/mth. Already there is talk of price increase to cover the increased operating cost.
    Which brings us all back to square 1.

  16. #56

    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by diver-hloc View Post
    I truly have no idea if people from Denmark, is or is not, the happiest in the World... or anyway else in this World.
    Bhutan is the happiest in the world ... so that's taken
    -------------------------------
    Endure. In enduring grow strong.

  17. #57

    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zichar View Post
    Bhutan is the happiest in the world ... so that's taken
    I take the whole Gross National Happiness thing with a large tablespoon of salt, esp with regards to Bhutan.

    In the late 1980s and early 1990s, the country expelled or forced to leave nearly one fifth of its population in the name of preserving its Tibetan Mahayana Buddhist culture and identity.[32] The Lhotshampas, the ethnic group persecuted by the Bhutanese government, were subject to "harassment, arrests and the burning of ethnic Nepali homes."[33] The government enacted discriminatory citizenship laws against the Lhotshampas, stripping about one-fifth of its population of citizenship. A harassment campaign escalating in the early 1990s ensued, and afterwards Bhutanese security forces began expelling people after making them renounce claims to their homes and homeland. A refugee recounted, “The army took all the people from their houses. As we left Bhutan, we were forced to sign the document. They snapped our photos. The man told me to smile, to show my teeth. He wanted to show that I was leaving my country willingly, happily, that I was not forced to leave.”[34] Due to the violence, Bhutanese of Nepali origin, mainly Hindu, fled their homeland. According to the UNHCR, more than 107,000 Bhutanese refugees living in seven camps in eastern Nepal have been documented as of 2008.[35] After many years in refugee camps, many are now moving to host nations such as Norway, the United Kingdom, Australia, and the United States as refugees. The United States has admitted 30,870 refugees from fiscal years 2008 through 2010.[36] Still, in July 2010, the Bhutanese prime minister, Jigme Y Thinley, called the Bhutanese refugees illegal immigrants.[37]

  18. #58
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zichar View Post
    Bhutan is the happiest in the world ... so that's taken
    Quote Originally Posted by cks2k2 View Post
    I take the whole Gross National Happiness thing with a large tablespoon of salt, esp with regards to Bhutan.

    Isn't there a report a few days ago (can't remember is it CNN or somewhere else)... that the pursuit of weath is beginning to make Bhutan a less happy place.

    I can't backup this 'claim' since I can't recall where I see the report....
    Last edited by diver-hloc; 21st May 2012 at 09:54 AM.

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  19. #59
    Moderator diver-hloc's Avatar
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    Default Re: bye bye clubsnap, i am flying over to denmark and work as a cleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleFai View Post
    It all depends on who gets the raise and but how much. If we confine ourselves to the lowest salary group, then the impact can be contained. For one drawing $800 a month, a $200 increase to $1000 would be a drastic 20% pay raise. But such a person will most likely be working in an area that accounts for a tiny fraction of the Consumer Price Index. Of course, we need to prevent their bosses from using it as an excuse to jack up prices.

    Also, many in the manufacturing and construction industry use cheap foreign labour. This is not reflective of the true cost of their products. Having a multinational set up a factory here that employs 80% foreign labour at $800 a month so that they can sell cheap to the world is not the way we should go. It is something like borrowing from Ah Long to make your wedding look grand - if you can't afford it, then do something else.

    And yes, we need construction workers here to build our house and factory. But this industry is addicted to cheap labour, and in any case the cost of construction is small compared to the price of the land and the developer and housing agents' profit margins.

    And that... is the problem. How do we 'prevent' those company from rising their price. If they can't increase price to cover cost... next best thing is to reduce number of worker. Back to square one again.

    And the question is still not answered.... are S'porean willing to pay extra for our lower paid worker higher pay cheque ?? Cause I don't mind a big rise to my basic pay... the only thing is... I can't promise my boss won't rise bus/train fare

    Scuba & Father... For Life

  20. #60
    Senior Member Big Kahuna's Avatar
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    I Knew one Bangladeshi cleaner in my ex office, he told me the same story, in his country, he made less than sg $100/mth if he is lucky but in sg he can he get 10x conservatively, he even make extras by selling recycle paper and cut board, 5 yrs ago he bit farewell to me say he made enought, he own 3 second hand rented car now and he is going back to drive one himself

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