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Thread: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

  1. #21

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sfoto100 View Post
    if you own a car, don't you use the road more than those who don't? If instead of COE, ballot is use, then car won't be only for the more well off.
    So ballot system ... to get a chance to buy COE at lower prices? Or scrap COE altogether?
    -------------------------------
    Endure. In enduring grow strong.

  2. #22
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sfoto100 View Post
    if you own a car, don't you use the road more than those who don't? If instead of COE, ballot is use, then car won't be only for the more well off.
    On the first sentence which states the a car-owner uses the road more than those who don't - just for the record, this is a slightly different point from "people who don't own cars don't enjoy the roads at all, and thus this is unfair since the roads are funded by taxes and everyone should be able to enjoy the roads". I therefore presume that you are not pursuing that line any longer. In that case, I'm fine. The first sentence may not be entirely true and there are situations which do not match that statement... But ok, let's look at your second sentence.

    You suggest that a ballot system would be fairer to you than a COE system. I presume that this is because everyone gets an equal chance to enjoy the roads (through chance) rather than what you perceive as a scheme benefiting the "well-off". On the surface, sure. If you assume that everyone's life is entirely identical and their demands are uniform.

    Let's have A and B, and assume that they have identical wages and expenditure. Both can afford a COE. Under the COE scheme, both would have bought cars.

    Now let's have your proposed ballot system, and add a few more details to A and B. Let's just say that the ballot allows 50% of applicants have the right to buy a car. A has 5 children in primary school and lives in Jurong East. His workplace is in Simei and he starts work at 8 am. B is a single bachelor who lives at Simei, and works at Simei. He also starts work at 8 am and can walk to work.

    If only one of the two can win the ballot here, and A wins, B doesn't - that seems fair. If B wins, and A doesn't? It hardly seems fair to me then. You have merely replaced "more well off" in your post above for the ballot scheme with "luckier at balloting".

    Please note that I'm not saying that the COE system is better, if A could not afford a COE and B could, then the same imperfection occurs. My point here is really that any system to control the ownership of cars will have certain rigidities built into the methodology of deciding who gets to own the cars. So let's not fling our hands in the air and proclaim an alternative scheme a clear winner too quickly. Cheers.

  3. #23

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post

    If only one of the two can win the ballot here, and A wins, B doesn't - that seems fair. If B wins, and A doesn't? It hardly seems fair to me then. You have merely replaced "more well off" in your post above for the ballot scheme with "luckier at balloting".

    Please note that I'm not saying that the COE system is better, if A could not afford a COE and B could, then the same imperfection occurs. My point here is really that any system to control the ownership of cars will have certain rigidities built into the methodology of deciding who gets to own the cars. So let's not fling our hands in the air and proclaim an alternative scheme a clear winner too quickly. Cheers.
    ya agreed with u that i am replacing well-off with luck. but at least i am sure it will allows some not so well off people to own cars... they may have the real needs.. where as they are people who owns a few cars just because they are too rich...

    well i did proclaim a clear winner? we are all here to give our views, and the readers can decide for themselves, pls stay cool dude... end of the day whatever views there are , they may affect others and in turn affect others...., and let's hope this will result in a better singapore...

    cheers too

  4. #24

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zichar View Post
    So ballot system ... to get a chance to buy COE at lower prices? Or scrap COE altogether?
    no, coe to buy coe , to buy another coe.. can a not? hahahaha

  5. #25

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    dun need argue or think, there is only one winner.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  6. #26
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sfoto100 View Post
    well i did proclaim a clear winner? we are all here to give our views, and the readers can decide for themselves, pls stay cool dude... end of the day whatever views there are , they may affect others and in turn affect others...., and let's hope this will result in a better singapore...

    cheers too
    Ok.

    Well, I made that statement because you said this earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by sfoto100
    ballot system is more fair cmopared to COE

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos-

    Ok.

    Well, I made that statement because you said this earlier:
    Err... I still think depending on one"s luck is more fair...

    How abt you? I am all ears...

  8. #28
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sfoto100 View Post
    Err... I still think depending on one"s luck is more fair...

    How abt you? I am all ears...
    I believe I had already given my views in the earlier long post on A versus B....

    Would be appreciated if you referred to that and read it....
    Last edited by edutilos-; 10th May 2012 at 04:22 PM.

  9. #29
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    You guys can talk all you want. COE is not going to go away. It generates too much revenue for our government. They will never get rid of their cash cow.

  10. #30

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    Erp is ok .. u use the road u pay, but COE is riddiculars .. 1 papaer cost as much as 1 car ..

  11. #31
    Senior Member giantcanopy's Avatar
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    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinktank22 View Post
    Erp is ok .. u use the road u pay, but COE is riddiculars .. 1 papaer cost as much as 1 car ..
    If everyone gets to own a car, LTA will still have the task of unchoking roads. How ? come up with stupefying disincentives like
    - raise price of ERP gantry to $50 or more. ( I have seen tolled bridges charge similar rates overseas. painful 2 min drive across )
    - raise price of public parking to $ 10 bucks every 30 min. Or maybe more
    - raise price of gas ++
    Is that a more palatable alternative ? I am definitely NOT a fan of this COE thing but having to endure crazy CTE jams, it seems every other non COE options got their short comings as well.

    ( Meanwhile.. I count my luck I bought my car during COE recession .. )

    Ryan

  12. #32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zichar

    So ballot system ... to get a chance to buy COE at lower prices? Or scrap COE altogether?
    Imaging our 'A' team ppl so unlucky not to get a COE, then how ? No car when arriving to meet the ppl session at CC .. so ironic ..

    Then another system comes up, civil servant no need to ballot ? Then another set of problem. Coe is here to stay, its quite fair actually, u can afford u pay, u cannot afford why die die go buy car ?

    The whole is not equal, everyone got a choice to spent their money, whether on a car or house or holiday tour .. i use to take public transport, back then i envy those friend of mine with car, but at the same time i go on holiday trip very often. Now i own a car, i got no spare cash for holiday.

  13. #33

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    fair or not, the loser will always make noise about it and claim it's unfair

  14. #34

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    simple. build 2nd tier expressway along / centre of the expressway. still jam, then 3rd layer

    they have been ignoring the problem and coming out silly idea like COE / ERP / peak hours etc. these solution are superficial. I bet those LTA scholars wont want to put effort into long term solution as they only want to reap short time benefit.

    solving this traffic issue need long term commitment; which LTA officer / scholar lacks

  15. #35

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    actually it is also 羊毛出在羊身上

    although COE ERP also jam

    but if car is cheap and everybody start to buy, i bet your car wont be able to move

    actually, COE filter out those not really need a car. actually also good to have so that only elite afford to buy. and they one time buy 10 car and park in their garage. better than having 10 young punk racing on the road

  16. #36

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    built roads that can go thru HDB.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  17. #37
    Senior Member giantcanopy's Avatar
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    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotoudavid View Post
    built roads that can go thru HDB.
    then more residents will write to MP and complain about noise pollution

  18. #38

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by giantcanopy View Post
    then more residents will write to MP and complain about noise pollution
    then built sound proof in HDB.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

  19. #39
    Senior Member edutilos-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotoudavid View Post
    then built sound proof in HDB.
    HDB flat floor area become smaller. Write to MP and complain.

  20. #40

    Default Re: enough of cte,jam end up paying higher ERP!!

    Quote Originally Posted by edutilos- View Post
    HDB flat floor area become smaller. Write to MP and complain.
    then build taller units with mini 2 storey in it.
    Eat breath LIVERPOOL!!!

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