Canon BCI-7 - new ink formulation

[erwinx]

http://cweb.canon.jp/pixus/about/quality/index.html

Use babelfish to translate. Not clear whether backwardly compatible with existing printers.

With new formula Photo Paper Pro plus BCI-7, we're going to see the longest lasting dye prints ever

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by erwinx http://cweb.canon.jp/pixus/about/quality/index.html Use babelfish to translate. Not clear whether backwardly compatible with existing printers. With new formula Photo Paper Pro plus BCI-7, we're going to see the longest lasting dye prints ever

Definitely NOT compatible. If you look down Canon's History lane, there is not such thing as stepping backward, only forward. Those factories need to keep churning out toys to keep the government happy.

[Neo]

That will address the print longivity issue. Dye inks have always produced wider colour gamut than pigment inks, making them more suited for producing photographic images of the highest quality. In addition, you can print on both glossy and matte papers, so you're not confined in expressing your portfolio. Hopefully, the new ink will reach our shores soon...

[Watcher]

Originally Posted by Neo That will address the print longivity issue. Dye inks have always produced wider colour gamut than pigment inks, making them more suited for producing photographic images of the highest quality. In addition, you can print on both glossy and matte papers, so you're not confined in expressing your portfolio. Hopefully, the new ink will reach our shores soon...

Always wider? Not really. With the older tech, yes, but if in this review where the R800 exceed the latest iP8500 in quality. Read the whole review yourself. In the conclusion, the review said "The conclusion is easy to draw: If you're looking only for quality, the Stylus Photo R800 is the only choice. In all areas - including black and white - it is the printer with the best fidelity of reproduction. "

As for your inks, the BCI-7 has only a fraction of the longevity compared to Ultrachrome. Read here which quoted it to last for prints on Epson Premium Glossy Photo to last 104/34 years (under glass/not under glass) and with Epson Matt paper - Heavy Weight, (>150/>70 years)

[Neo]

There're many articles that can testify that pigment inks gamut is inferior compared to dye inks. The following are some examples:

http://www.promarketinc.com/technical/pig_dye_inks.html
http://www.screenweb.com/inks/cont/inkstrategyb.htm
http://www.pctechguide.com/13inkjets_Ink_and_paper.htm

Even if we disregard all the articles which claim superior gamut of dye inks, we must look at the context of the "test" in the article. If the photo chosen does not contain a wide gamut, then obviously it'd not show up the constraints of pigment inks.

I think the new BCi-7 is good news to all photographers who wish to print on every conceivable kind of inkjet media, not just restricted to matte photo paper or Epson's one and only kind of glossy paper. 100 years for the BCi-7 can be labelled as archival purposes for all intent, and that makes all of us Canon users very happy. If Epson users are happy with your solely matte prints for 150 years, we're very happy for you too.

[Watcher]

Originally Posted by Neo There're many articles that can testify that pigment inks gamut is inferior compared to dye inks. The following are some examples: http://www.promarketinc.com/technical/pig_dye_inks.html http://www.screenweb.com/inks/cont/inkstrategyb.htm http://www.pctechguide.com/13inkjets_Ink_and_paper.htm Even if we disregard all the articles which claim superior gamut of dye inks, we must look at the context of the "test" in the article. If the photo chosen does not contain a wide gamut, then obviously it'd not show up the constraints of pigment inks.

Sigh... Generally yes, but specifically no. Have people complained that the R800 has a narrow or small gamut, here or DP Review? The results speaks for itself. Do you think that in the review I provided does not contain colors that are commonly used? It printed very common types of items:sky, water, skin, grass, etc.

Originally Posted by Neo I think the new BCi-7 is good news to all photographers who wish to print on every conceivable kind of inkjet media, not just restricted to matte photo paper or Epson's one and only kind of glossy paper. 100 years for the BCi-7 can be labelled as archival purposes for all intent, and that makes all of us Canon users very happy. If Epson users are happy with your solely matte prints for 150 years, we're very happy for you too.

You seem to have something for Canon. Where did you get your "100 years for the BCi-7" from? Solely matte?

A translation from Canon here showed that "translated version of a page from Canon Japan’s website, which talks about a new ChromaLife 100 inkset using BCI-7 dye-inks, with promises of 30 years light-proofness under glass and 10 years antigas fading when used with Canon’s “genuine photograph paper”"

As for "solely matte" comments, did you see that I had put in " Epson Premium Glossy Photo to last 104/34 years" quote?

[erwinx]

using google to translate:

"Pasting in the album, just keeps, as many as as many as 100 years continue maintaining beauty " the album retention 100 year of CANON * " Is.
This year, that raised furthermore power.
With the birth of new dye ink " BCI-7 ", the paper which can actualize " album retention 100 year ", from former " professional photo paper " 1 type, expands to 5 types at a stroke. As for the genuine glossy type photograph paper which joins to line-up anew " the super photo paper ", " super photo paper * silky ", the " CANON glossy paper ", and the " economy photo paper ". The pleasure which uses properly the paper with the type and use of photograph increased."

http://bj.canon.co.jp/japan/printtec...alife/p02.html

I think the Japanese words for "100 years" are the same as that in Chinese
The footnote to the webpage says that the standards used to calculate 100 years longevity are those of Wilhelm Imaging Research.

100 years referred to 'stored in album' longevity while 30 years refers to framing for display?

Its up to the user to see how long he wants the prints to last for. Personally, even my film reprints that i made for framing, i displayed max 5 years then retired the prints and put up something better. It looks like Canon can achieve that. On the other hand, if i'm a Pro selling a print for $$$, then better make sure its on Ultrachrome.

[oeyvind]

Pixus is Pixma here, just like Ixy is Ixus here

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Watcher Sigh... Generally yes, but specifically no. Have people complained that the R800 has a narrow or small gamut, here or DP Review? The results speaks for itself. Do you think that in the review I provided does not contain colors that are commonly used? It printed very common types of items:sky, water, skin, grass, etc. You seem to have something for Canon. Where did you get your "100 years for the BCi-7" from? Solely matte? A translation from Canon here showed that "translated version of a page from Canon Japan’s website, which talks about a new ChromaLife 100 inkset using BCI-7 dye-inks, with promises of 30 years light-proofness under glass and 10 years antigas fading when used with Canon’s “genuine photograph paper”" As for "solely matte" comments, did you see that I had put in " Epson Premium Glossy Photo to last 104/34 years" quote?

Hi Watcher,

You mentioned Epson matte will last for 150 years, which is what I wrote. I apologize if it has misled anyone. I hereby clarify my statement... Epson pigment users will have the pleasure of storing their matte photos for 150 years, and Epson Premium glossy photo paper (the only glossy paper for Epson pigment ink printers) for 100 years. No offence...

I do not have a "thing" for Canon. If speaking out for Canon printers represent a "thing", then it can be said you have a "thing" for Epson too. But this is silly... let's not go there ok? Peace, bro...

Yeah... I think bro Erwinx already clarified where 100 years came from. In fact, he highlighted something which I didn't know. The testing methodology is in accordance to the Wilheim Research company, and that the 100 years figure applies to a wide range of photo papers, ranging from the Photo Paper Pro, semi-glossy "silky" photo papers and even the economical photo paper. I do hope that the new inks come soon.

[jsbn]

Time to change my i560 printer to a Pixma?

[Neo]

Originally Posted by jsbn Time to change my i560 printer to a Pixma?

Hahahaha! I'd love to tell you to BUY BUY BUY, but it really depends on whether you need the additional features of the PIXMA printers, such as CD-R printing, duplex borderless photo printing and 2-way paper cassette.

I saw a photo book done in a coffee table book style during one of the exhibitions. It was done by Canon as a sample of what can be done with the duplex printing, and quite impressive too... Unfortunately, there are no A3 printers with duplex capability... I'd love to create one of my own coffee table book...

[jsbn]

Canon does have those Photo Album thing going for like $50 apiece.

Duplex printing... well I do need it when I print drafts. Paper saver. I dun wanna kill Mother Nature. CD-R Printing, like kinda no use.

Hmm.... Buy buy buy? Hopefully got good deals for 4 or 5 color Pixma printers next Comex though. Time to look for a buyer for my i560... ehehehe....

[realgar]

anw the best thing is to test it out yourself. the bci-6 claimed lightfastness of 100+ yrs etc etc. i printed using an i950 on canon photo paper pro, left on my table (no direct sun) for 2 weeks, and it was pretty badly faded. especially the black (to orange).

hopefully the antigas fading is as good as it claims, and my prints can last longer than 2 wks on my table.

[mpenza]

i have 4 framed prints from the S9000 on my office table for several months (at least 4 months) and they haven't faded. seemed to retain the same colors too.

[Watcher]

Originally Posted by erwinx The footnote to the webpage says that the standards used to calculate 100 years longevity are those of Wilhelm Imaging Research.

I withhold my trust on BCI-7 until Wilhelm themselves have done their own testing. The numbers I quoted came from Wilhelm's own testing of the R800. To be fair to the R800 when it comes to comparison, so must printers using the BCI-7 inks be tested by Wilhelm.

Originally Posted by erwinx 100 years referred to 'stored in album' longevity while 30 years refers to framing for display? Its up to the user to see how long he wants the prints to last for. Personally, even my film reprints that i made for framing, i displayed max 5 years then retired the prints and put up something better. It looks like Canon can achieve that. On the other hand, if i'm a Pro selling a print for $$$, then better make sure its on Ultrachrome.

If stored in album, R800 has prints that goes >200 years for glossy (PGPP), 185 for matt. 30 years is for display under glass. However we cannot assume that everyone who does not sell prints don't need longevity. If I gave a photo to a friend, I won't want to be embarrased after 2-3 years (or in realgar's case, 2-3 months ), the image fade.

[Neo]

Hi jsbn,

Yeah... I saw those album stuff that Canon is selling for $50 bucks a piece. Comes with a pack double-sided photo paper. But that's not the one I saw... the one I saw was a Hong Kong photo book... professionally done... not the album that they're selling. It looks like those professional binding of hardcover books in the library... so it has the real coffee-table book feel...

Very nice to do up a photo book and give to a friend as a personal album... or for housewarming... so it's my pet project for this year!

Sekali I visit my friend's house and find the book in the storeroom besides the old newspaper for the karang guni... heartbreak!

[jsbn]

Oh... Liddat har?

Actually I thinking of doing a photobook oso. Compile my 1yr of learning process in photography. Frm da very worst to da very best.

Actually, I originally thought of doing a photo album containing my bud's ROM plus maybe some personal shots to give it to him and his wife when he shift to his new house this year. But den I thought of the same thing as u, and shudder.

As a photographer, nothing pains u more den to see ur hard work being relegated to a sad brown cardboard box in da dark recesses of da storeroom...

[Zerstorer]

Originally Posted by realgar hopefully the antigas fading is as good as it claims, and my prints can last longer than 2 wks on my table.

Agree with this. All the claims are based on accelerated light fading tests in laboratory conditions.

Gas fading in real world conditions is often the main culprit rather than exposure to light. In this regard, all the dye based printers I've tried from HP/Canon/Epson are all susceptible within a month with glossy papers.

[erwinx]

Originally Posted by mpenza i have 4 framed prints from the S9000 on my office table for several months (at least 4 months) and they haven't faded. seemed to retain the same colors too.

my framed prints in my office (large windows, plenty of indirect sunlight) are reaching 9 months soon. No fading yet.

There was a display of nature photographs printed to A3 on a Epson unframed at Botanic Gardens with Halogen lights pointing at them. By the end of the exhibition (a few months), most/all the prints displayed fading. I'm sure that Canon will fade faster but both cases cannot be considered 'acceptable'.

So what does realgear's example show? Canon fades if you leave a print just lying around in 2 weeks, Epson fades in 20 weeks? 10 times longer but still unacceptable.

On the other hand, if you frame a Canon or Epson print, they will last for so long, you'll get bored of them that you'll want to retire the print and display a new one.

if the pics aren't worth framing or placing in an album, then why bother printing them on expensive photo paper and top of the line photo printer? Might as well go to a photo lab and pay $0.50 for 5R.

[sriram]

For years and years we have seen these so called "claims" by printer mfgrs. In fact even Epson's "archival" printer the 2000P produced prints which showed signs of fading under some circumstances (remember seeing these reports last year) and hence the 2200/2100. We will just have to wait 50-80 years and see how they perform in the real world. Only time will tell. Personally, I don't trust any inkjet / pigment printer for archival photos.

As a simple test, I have a cheap 25c print made on Kodak royal paper, stuck on my fridge. It has been out for years with no signs of fading. Next to it are a few prints, made from my old Epson and newer Canon printers. Both have faded horribly within 4-5 months. In fact the Epson print looks almost monochrome / sepia toned now.