How to adjust "fill-in" flash intensity for Dimage?

[Xerxes]

Hi guys. New with the Minolta Dimage and need some advice from all the experience old birds....

Tried to use the build-in flash in the a200 and not very happy with the results. Basically, when flash in activated, the camera will automatically set the shuttle to much higher speed making the proportion of ambience vs flash very low (ie strong flash). Making the lighting in picture looking very harsh.

Surprisingly, I could not change this proportion even if I change the exposure, and flash compensation (program and auto mode). On my Olympus, I could easily increase the ambient light to flash proportion, example, exposure compensation +1/3EV, Flash compensation -2EV would yield very subtle Flash effect. On the Minolta, even change the Flash compensation to -2EV will yield very strong flash.

Any advice, observation and input on this issue will be greatly appreciated.

[UY79]

Originally Posted by Xerxes Hi guys. New with the Minolta Dimage and need some advice from all the experience old birds.... Tried to use the build-in flash in the a200 and not very happy with the results. Basically, when flash in activated, the camera will automatically set the shuttle to much higher speed making the proportion of ambience vs flash very low (ie strong flash). Making the lighting in picture looking very harsh. Surprisingly, I could not change this proportion even if I change the exposure, and flash compensation (program and auto mode). On my Olympus, I could easily increase the ambient light to flash proportion, example, exposure compensation +1/3EV, Flash compensation -2EV would yield very subtle Flash effect. On the Minolta, even change the Flash compensation to -2EV will yield very strong flash. Any advice, observation and input on this issue will be greatly appreciated.

Minolta's default flash mode uses a 1/focal length rule for shutter speed. Therefore, the shots will look harsh.

The solution is to use slow sync flash mode for better ambient exposure in your flash shots. This will break away from the 1/focal length rule and expose for the ambient environment. But beware of motion blur due to slow shutter speed.

Cheers!

[Flare]

When the flash is on, Km cameras' slowest shutter speed will be 'locked' at 1/equivalent focal length to avoid camera shakes. So, if the ambient light isn't sufficient to provide the light, the flash will throw more light so that a 'proper' exposure can be obtained. If you wanna catch more ambient light, depending on situation, you could use rear-curtain sync/nightscene mode like wat UY79 mentioned, which allows you to shoot at shutter speeds slower than 1/equivalent focal length (i.e. freeing the 'lock'), allowing you to capture more light. Alternatively, you can up the sensiitivity, this way, ambient light will makes up a greater ratio of the exposure with the flash thowing out less power.

Er... shoot manual?? For my unathordox method, I'll just use the camera's meter to make a rough gauge of the lighting conditions of the scene, then I up the ISO till I get get shutter speed of around 1-3 stops slower than hand hold-able speed (depending on practicability and amount of ambient light i want (who say AS is useless when shooting flash?), then go to manual mode, dial in the shutter speed and aperture, switch on the flash, flash - 1 e.v (personal preference, like my flash weaker). This way, my flash will properly illuminate the subject, without blur due to camera shake, but not overwhelming the ambient light. (i.e. 1:1 ratio between ambient and flash if I set my exposure to be 1 stop under ambient light settings)

By the way, do note that some camera's ev settings affects flash power as well! so say if you ev +1 but flash ev -1, end up it's like nv compensate... while for some camera, the ev settings affect the 'ambient light settings' only. Test it out on the A200, but if the shutterspeed is stuck at handhold speed, you +ev also no effect unless you in nightscene or rear curtain sync mode.

[UY79]

Originally Posted by Flare If you wanna catch more ambient light, depending on situation, you could use rear-curtain sync/nightscene mode like wat UY79 mentioned, which allows you to shoot at shutter speeds slower than 1/equivalent focal length (i.e. freeing the 'lock'), allowing you to capture more light.

Slow sync is not rear sync. Rear sync still follows the 1/focal rule.

What I have mentioned is slow sync. Activated by pressing the AEL button during half pressed before taking the shot. There's no options to set slow sync as the default flash mode, which is used often by more experienced photographers. Most of the time we switch to manual mode to avoid the trouble of activating slow sync all the time.

Cheers!

[Flare]

Originally Posted by UY79 Slow sync is not rear sync. Rear sync still follows the 1/focal rule. What I have mentioned is slow sync. Activated by pressing the AEL button during half pressed before taking the shot. There's no options to set slow sync as the default flash mode, which is used often by more experienced photographers. Most of the time we switch to manual mode to avoid the trouble of activating slow sync all the time. Cheers!

Ops!!! My bad, thanks for correcting me, got my terms wrong... effects of late night PS-ing induced confusion...

[Flare]

One reason i got it wrong is that when using the Manual slow sync method (camera in Manual mode and set up as per my post above), i also set my flash to rear sync...

[UY79]

Originally Posted by Flare One reason i got it wrong is that when using the Manual slow sync method (camera in Manual mode and set up as per my post above), i also set my flash to rear sync...

Rear sync is the better flash mode for capturing the effects of motion blur. If shutter speed is high and there's no motion blur, then both mode are the same. I believe if you have slave flash to strobe, it's better not to use rear sync.

This is probably not important but HSS is disabled in rear sync. So for whatever reasons if your shutter speed needs to goes above x-sync and you are in rear-sync, it will get stuck at max x-sync speed and overexposures happens. Only in normal fill-in mode that the flash can go HSS if enabled. Also becareful of flash ranges when using HSS.

Cheers!

[pai]

new bird here, but i try lah...

think the a200 should have an "AEL" (exposure lock) button, somewhere near your right thumb? if you press that with your flash on, it should put put the camera into slow sync mode - the shutter speed will be slower. but don't try this in dark places, you'll get very bad motion blur + camera shake because the camera basically sets shutter at the speed it would have if the flash wasn't on.

sigh, no slow sync, too fast. got slow sync, too slow. and if you try to control shutter speed by using S mode, in low light, the camera just opens aperture big big to 2.8 or 3.5...

looks like really only can fiddle with manual mode to get speeds in between.

actually i've kind of given up on my in-built flash already. spoils all my pictures except those taken in daylight. get a 3600HS or a sigma 500 super DG lah, opens up a whole new world of indoor shooting. bounce bounce bounce

[Flare]

Originally Posted by UY79 Rear sync is the better flash mode for capturing the effects of motion blur. If shutter speed is high and there's no motion blur, then both mode are the same. I believe if you have slave flash to strobe, it's better not to use rear sync. This is probably not important but HSS is disabled in rear sync. So for whatever reasons if your shutter speed needs to goes above x-sync and you are in rear-sync, it will get stuck at max x-sync speed and overexposures happens. Only in normal fill-in mode that the flash can go HSS if enabled. Also becareful of flash ranges when using HSS. Cheers!

Hmmm... didn't know that, for me I set to rear sync as a precaution to moving subjects.. Anyway, my shutter speed is usually at 1/60 seconds or so anyway. Now that I know, I'll becareful, and I'll have less scratch-heads when my camera got 'stuck' at x-sync speed. Thanks!

[Xerxes]

Tried the "AEL" to get slow syn and it worked! Thanks for the great advice!

I am now looking for a good external flash for the Minolta. the current default is the 3600HS. Any other advice on this?

[pai]

i would recommend spend a little more and get this:

Sigma 500 DG super
*make sure it's the minolta mount one.

not much more expensive, but much more powerful, and can swivel (for bounce when holding camera vertical). problem is i'm not sure where in sg they sell this, i checked at cathay and they didn't carry. i bought mine while overseas. does anyone know?

also check out this thread: http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthrea...3&page=1&pp=20

or you can consider the 5600HS, but it'll be very expensive. saw one going second hand at $450(?) on Buy and Sell, dunno if still available.

[Xerxes]

Originally Posted by pai i would recommend spend a little more and get this: Sigma 500 DG super *make sure it's the minolta mount one. not much more expensive, but much more powerful, and can swivel (for bounce when holding camera vertical). problem is i'm not sure where in sg they sell this, i checked at cathay and they didn't carry. i bought mine while overseas. does anyone know? also check out this thread: http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthrea...3&page=1&pp=20 or you can consider the 5600HS, but it'll be very expensive. saw one going second hand at $450(?) on Buy and Sell, dunno if still available.

Thanks for your recommendation. Looks like a nice one. Will check it out. Will I secrifice any feature using the Sigma vs the original ones? The 3600 looks a little plasticky , does the Sigma has better construction?

[Drudkh]

all are plastic. Sigma has more power but not sure if its compatible with A200. The ADI doesn't work with 7D.

[pai]

yep, plastic. the sigma works fine with a1 and a2, so should be compatible with the a200. better try in person just to make sure of course.

you don't really lose much when using the sigma instead of the minolta flashes. for a more detailed comparison, see this page:

http://www.pbase.com/mtf_foto_studies/mtf_faq#Flash4

the additional slave flash capability is good to have, since i think the a200 doesn't allow wireless flash.

[TME]

Originally Posted by Flare Er... shoot manual?? For my unathordox method, I'll just use the camera's meter to make a rough gauge of the lighting conditions of the scene, then I up the ISO till I get get shutter speed of around 1-3 stops slower than hand hold-able speed (depending on practicability and amount of ambient light i want (who say AS is useless when shooting flash?), then go to manual mode, dial in the shutter speed and aperture, switch on the flash, flash - 1 e.v (personal preference, like my flash weaker). This way, my flash will properly illuminate the subject, without blur due to camera shake, but not overwhelming the ambient light. (i.e. 1:1 ratio between ambient and flash if I set my exposure to be 1 stop under ambient light settings)

Sorry could u explain the logic of your method? Sounds interesting.

What I usually do is use 14-segment metering to find the exposure without flash. Dial in the setting in manual mode and fire the flash. Dial in flash compensation to reduce hotspots or bounce the flash. I usually dun have a problem of a badly white-out subject as I usually just bounce using a card. What are the objections to such a method?

Also I would like to know why u set the ambient exposure to 1-3 stops lower than required since the flash does not light up the background nor is the ambient exposure settings (as determined by the camera) bright enough to expose the subject's face properly (hence the flash and the flash compensation)? How do u arrive at 1:1 ratio between ambient and flash exposure?

I've been experimenting whenever I get a chance to shoot under low light but for reasons of cost (I use film) and opportunity, I dun shoot all that much and hence would like to learn as much as possible from those with more experience.

Thanks!

[Flare]

Hmm... read my own post, and think it sounded confusing...

Ok, what i do, first, i use A mode, set it to the aperture i'll most likely use, say f8, and then just half press to check the exposure value (shutter speed)

Then i'll up the ISO till I get shutter speed 1-3 stops below handhold speed. I'll prefer 1 stop lower than ambient settings if possible. say I'm using my 24-105, i'll take handhold speed to be 1/60 seconds so that I wouldn't experience camera shake throughout the range of focal length for the zoom.(AS helps. I could go perhaps 1/30 seconds, but i'll just use 1/60 seconds to be on the safe side) . So i'll up the ISO so that meter readings reads 1/30 f8 (1 stop lower than handhold speed of 1/60 f8).

Finally, i'll switch to manual mode, tune in 1/60 f8, switch on flash, tilt flash for bounce and set flash ev to -1. When i shoot, the ambient light would provide half the light (1 stop lower) and the flash will provide the other half (flash ev -1). I'll do some test shots and may lower the flash ev further if the flash is too harsh for my liking. This way, even background areas where the flash does not reach will not be in total darkness. Therotically, they'll only be 1 stop under, but in reality they'll perhaps 1-3 stops underexposed. This also helps to put emphasis on the subject, without having a unsightly dark background. Provided the camera's flash wasn't fooled in the first place.

Example:

[TME]

Originally Posted by Flare Hmm... read my own post, and think it sounded confusing... Ok, what i do, first, i use A mode, set it to the aperture i'll most likely use, say f8, and then just half press to check the exposure value (shutter speed) Then i'll up the ISO till I get shutter speed 1-3 stops below handhold speed. I'll prefer 1 stop lower than ambient settings if possible. say I'm using my 24-105, i'll take handhold speed to be 1/60 seconds so that I wouldn't experience camera shake throughout the range of focal length for the zoom.(AS helps. I could go perhaps 1/30 seconds, but i'll just use 1/60 seconds to be on the safe side) . So i'll up the ISO so that meter readings reads 1/30 f8 (1 stop lower than handhold speed of 1/60 f8). Finally, i'll switch to manual mode, tune in 1/60 f8, switch on flash, tilt flash for bounce and set flash ev to -1. When i shoot, the ambient light would provide half the light (1 stop lower) and the flash will provide the other half (flash ev -1). I'll do some test shots and may lower the flash ev further if the flash is too harsh for my liking. This way, even background areas where the flash does not reach will not be in total darkness. Therotically, they'll only be 1 stop under, but in reality they'll perhaps 1-3 stops underexposed. This also helps to put emphasis on the subject, without having a unsightly dark background. Provided the camera's flash wasn't fooled in the first place. Example:

Just to clarify 3 points
1) When u check the ambient exposure using A mode, is your flash on?

2) When u mention bounce flash - are u bouncing off the ceiling or off a bounce card? I notice that the ceiling in the shot u posted is quite low so that is quite alright. But I tend to shoot in ballrooms with ceilings about 2x or 3x as high (think Ritz-Carlton, Shangri-La-type ballrooms). And I dun want to use a bounce card cos it's so unwieldy and obvious. What do u do in such a situation?

3) When u are shooting a wide shot - 24mm and wider, how's your flash exposure like? Still -1ev and less? Still bounced?

Also it's interesting that u choose to change the shutter speeds using the ISO setting. Why? U could easily dial in -1 stop for ambient exposure when u are in manual mode. Any advantages? I usually shoot film at ISO400, so I obviously can't change the ISO but perhaps for digital there may be advantages I am not aware of.

Edit: U must be real fortunate to get shutter speeds at 1/60... I usually end up with 1/10-1/45 most of the time.

Thanks!
Ming Ern

[Flare]

1) When u check the ambient exposure using A mode, is your flash on?
Nope, flash is not on, if not shutter speed will be stuck in 1/focal length or something

2) When u mention bounce flash - are u bouncing off the ceiling or off a bounce card? I notice that the ceiling in the shot u posted is quite low so that is quite alright. But I tend to shoot in ballrooms with ceilings about 2x or 3x as high (think Ritz-Carlton, Shangri-La-type ballrooms). And I dun want to use a bounce card cos it's so unwieldy and obvious. What do u do in such a situation?
Hee, i forgot to bring my bounce card in the above shot, and it's shot in ball room at Rasa Shangri-La in Sentosa

3) When u are shooting a wide shot - 24mm and wider, how's your flash exposure like? Still -1ev and less? Still bounced?
Hmmm.. haven't tried, i don't have a lens that wide!!!

Also it's interesting that u choose to change the shutter speeds using the ISO setting. Why? U could easily dial in -1 stop for ambient exposure when u are in manual mode. Any advantages? I usually shoot film at ISO400, so I obviously can't change the ISO but perhaps for digital there may be advantages I am not aware of.

Does dialing in -1 for ambient works in manual mode? I don't think so ley, irregardless of your ambient ev, the camera will still be stuck in the shhutter speed and aperture you set, say 1/60 f5.6, unlike in P, A or S mode, where dialing in the ambient ev will change the exposure value... By uping ISO and checking shutter speed in A mode, I'll know how much under-exposed places outside my flash illumination will be. Well, i did say it's an unathordox method

[Flare]

Opss... sorry when I bounce I'll up the flash comp...
The above shot was + 1.5 ev. I just tested my settings again at home, bounce from ceiling, i also find +1/5 flash ev gave me better results...

I set my dial to control both flash and ambient, so in M mode, it only affects flash. I've tested, in M mode, when the EV dial is set to control both flash and ambient, uping ev and flash ev yields the same results. i.e. control flash only...

[Flare]

Hmmm... think i'm getting confused myself
Need more experience...
Anyway, from your set up mentioned above, you checked exposure value with flash on or off, if flash was off, wouldn't iso 400 give you shutter speed difficult to handhold? I tend to prefer ISO 800 so that the background wouldn't be in darkness... I guess simply speaking, my flash set up would be:
Check exposure with 14 segment metering,
up iso settings to achieve 1-3 stops under handhold speed
Dial in handhold speed into M mode
Do test shots and adjust flash compensation.
(bounce from ceiling, up ev. Direct either 0 ev compensation or minus.)
Found that Minolta's flash generally balance the ambient light and flash light pretty well, so generally don't need to intentionally reduce flash power via flash ev compensation...

Think I still need more experience to get a better idea of how to compensate in different situation.

So, anyone else can share their flash settinngs?