Colorspaces in KM cameras

[spurssy]

In recent days I've realised why the photos coming out of my old Dimage 5 always looked dull in colour. Since Flare enlightened me (refer to this thread) the fact that Dimage 5 uses it's own colourspace, and after trying out Dimage Viewer, I confirmed that Dimage Viewer do have the capability to transform a default dull Dimage 5 image to a more colourful image.

I was told that I could use PS to convert the image into Adobe RGB working space. However, I could not differentiate anything visually after I convert in PS and save it under the converted working space. Am I missing something?

Also, It seems that Dynax 7D does not need any conversion (either through Dimage Viewer or PS), can someone confirm on this?

Adams

[UY79]

Originally Posted by spurssy In recent days I've realised why the photos coming out of my old Dimage 5 always looked dull in colour. Since Flare enlightened me (refer to this thread) the fact that Dimage 5 uses it's own colourspace, and after trying out Dimage Viewer, I confirmed that Dimage Viewer do have the capability to transform a default dull Dimage 5 image to a more colourful image. I was told that I could use PS to convert the image into Adobe RGB working space. However, I could not differentiate anything visually after I convert in PS and save it under the converted working space. Am I missing something? Also, It seems that Dynax 7D does not need any conversion (either through Dimage Viewer or PS), can someone confirm on this? Adams

The Dimage 5 native colourspace is probably slightly wider than AdobeRGB colourspace which is alot wider than sRGB.

The difference between the native colourspace and AdobeRGB is probably insignificant visually. But the difference between AdobeRGB and sRGB colourspace can be easily seen in the example posted by Zerstorer in reference thread.

Dynax 7 if set to use AdobeRGB will require conversion if you want to post online or print.

Cheers!

[Flare]

Yes, the 7D does not uses any special colour space like the Dimage 5/7 (yes, the colour space they use are wider than Adobe RGB). 7D can be set to use sRGB (normal / vivid) and Adobe RGB, so you can just shoot in the colour space you work in, and work with them straight out of the camera without running them through Dimage viewer.

I think you will see the effect of using adobe rgb only if you shoot in adobe rgb and view the image using programs that supports alternative (other than srgb) colour spaces, e.g. Photoshop. that is why colours of pictures you see using Adobe may be different from other simple image viewer. If you shoot in a narrow colour space and then convert to a wider one, i don't think you would see the effect, and of course you can shoot raw and then get it converted to different colour space and see the difference.

[yeocolin]

So bottomline is to shoot RAW to conserve the vivid colours of pictures?

The reason Dimage 5/7 have to go through that rigmarole of converting to sRGB, adobleRGB is cos it can't shoot RAW?

Please enlighten. Thanks.

[Drudkh]

Originally Posted by yeocolin So bottomline is to shoot RAW to conserve the vivid colours of pictures? The reason Dimage 5/7 have to go through that rigmarole of converting to sRGB, adobleRGB is cos it can't shoot RAW? Please enlighten. Thanks.

Dimage 5/7 can shoot in RAW & TIFF.

[spurssy]

Originally Posted by Flare If you shoot in a narrow colour space and then convert to a wider one, i don't think you would see the effect, and of course you can shoot raw and then get it converted to different colour space and see the difference.

You got a point there. i should go try it out.

Adams

[Zerstorer]

Differences between colourspaces are subtle at best and usually not very significant.

Tagging a file with the wrong colour profile or viewing it in a program that isn't colour managed will give a a big difference.

What happened in your previous post was that you probably made a mistake editing the file as there were NO colour profiles attached.

[Flare]

The thing about having to run Dimage 5/7 images through dimage viewer is because it captures jpeg files in its unqiue colour space and doesn't attach info of it's unique colour space, and thus colour values are 'wrong' when you do not run it through dimage viewer. What Dimage viewer does is 'rebuild' the jpeg in sRGB or Adobe colour space so that the true capabilities of camera's wider colour space is apparent...

I don't really know the file structure of jpegs or how it works, i'm guessing that when you shoot using in different colour space, a certain colour value for a certain pixel points to a different shade... so it's like hmmm 255 is matched to the colour space and the computer goes: hmmm so 255 is this shade of green, and then put the proper colour pixel at the proper point on screen or print, but if a wrong colour space info is used, the values are matched to a wrong shade of colour and thus the colour isn't 'right'.

maybe... maybe...

[UY79]

Originally Posted by Flare The thing about having to run Dimage 5/7 images through dimage viewer is because it captures jpeg files in its unqiue colour space and doesn't attach info of it's unique colour space, and thus colour values are 'wrong' when you do not run it through dimage viewer. What Dimage viewer does is 'rebuild' the jpeg in sRGB or Adobe colour space so that the true capabilities of camera's wider colour space is apparent... I don't really know the file structure of jpegs or how it works, i'm guessing that when you shoot using in different colour space, a certain colour value for a certain pixel points to a different shade... so it's like hmmm 255 is matched to the colour space and the computer goes: hmmm so 255 is this shade of green, and then put the proper colour pixel at the proper point on screen or print, but if a wrong colour space info is used, the values are matched to a wrong shade of colour and thus the colour isn't 'right'. maybe... maybe...

If you have the native profile installed in the PC, you could assign the JPEG with the colourspace profile in editing software that is colourspace aware and work from there instead of going through Dimage Viewer to do it.

Yes, basically a pixel of the same value represents different tones of colour in different colourspace.

Cheers!

[Zerstorer]

Originally Posted by Flare The thing about having to run Dimage 5/7 images through dimage viewer is because it captures jpeg files in its unqiue colour space and doesn't attach info of it's unique colour space, and thus colour values are 'wrong' when you do not run it through dimage viewer.

It is very bad practice if this were true. To use a native colourspace and not attach the profile with it will just cause lots of confusion.

Quote: What Dimage viewer does is 'rebuild' the jpeg in sRGB or Adobe colour space so that the true capabilities of camera's wider colour space is apparent...

Not really, when you convert to sRGB or Adobe RGB, colour values outside of the sRGB or ARGB gamut would already be lost, the main benefit is that colours within the gamut would be properly represented. If you didn't do it, any viewing program would just take the raw numbers and attempt to interpret it as sRGB or aRGB resulting in either oversaturated colours(if source gamut < destination) or muted colours ( if source>destination).

[Flare]

Originally Posted by Zerstorer It is very bad practice if this were true. To use a native colourspace and not attach the profile with it will just cause lots of confusion.

True, no one knows why they don't just use Adobe RGB or something, but well, they know it now and they no longer do it.

But, the really bad thing is that they didn't include the colourspace profile for users... and I think some ppl just resort to using Adobe RGB and skip the Dimage Viewer back then....

Quote: Not really, when you convert to sRGB or Adobe RGB, colour values outside of the sRGB or ARGB gamut would already be lost, the main benefit is that colours within the gamut would be properly represented. If you didn't do it, any viewing program would just take the raw numbers and attempt to interpret it as sRGB or aRGB resulting in either oversaturated colours(if source gamut < destination) or muted colours ( if source>destination).

I see... hmmm... thanks for the info...

[Flare]

Hey... just tot of it, maybe it's meant as a feature for you so that you can choose the colour space you wanna work with, be it sRGB (like me) or Adobe RGB or any other profiles supported. And maybe they decide to put it outside the camera so that it could reduce the work required on the camera, and save camera's resources, cost, developement time etc

perhaps...perhaps...

[spurssy]

Originally Posted by UY79 If you have the native profile installed in the PC, you could assign the JPEG with the colourspace profile in editing software that is colourspace aware and work from there instead of going through Dimage Viewer to do it. Yes, basically a pixel of the same value represents different tones of colour in different colourspace. Cheers!

How do I get the native profile installed in the PC?

I just realised my Dimage Viewer 2.3.7 (c ame with 7D) hangs while viewing some of my DImage 5 photos.

Adams

[UY79]

Originally Posted by spurssy How do I get the native profile installed in the PC? I just realised my Dimage Viewer 2.3.7 (c ame with 7D) hangs while viewing some of my DImage 5 photos. Adams

If you can find it, you can put it in windows\system32\spool\drivers\color if you are running Windows OS.

Cheers!

[spurssy]

Actually i found the Dimage 5 jpeg ICC under the Dimage Viewer installation. However, i tried assigning the same profile to the image but it never looked closed to correction being done by Dimage viewer. I'm beginning to suspect that the Dimage viewer doesn't just change the profile, it does additional color enhancements.

The closest match I found in PS is actually CIE RGB profile, not exact match but closest.

Adams

[UY79]

Originally Posted by spurssy Actually i found the Dimage 5 jpeg ICC under the Dimage Viewer installation. However, i tried assigning the same profile to the image but it never looked closed to correction being done by Dimage viewer. I'm beginning to suspect that the Dimage viewer doesn't just change the profile, it does additional color enhancements. The closest match I found in PS is actually CIE RGB profile, not exact match but closest. Adams

Have you tried converting the JPEG to AdobeRGB or sRGB after assigning it with the Dimage 5 profile?

Cheers!