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Thread: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    ^Yep.

    Just to provide my input on a D700/FUJI X100/OM-D user.

    For the OM-D, yes, the battery life isn't as good as the DSLR, cos of the size of the battery and the EVF as such. Take note, what I am saying is for the OM-D only (not any other Olympus/Panasonic cameras).

    The OM-D is light (HUGE FACTOR), but not too light to make you feel as if it isn't robust enough (like the X-Pro 1). Which makes it great for an everyday camera, and travelling.

    Whoever said that Micro4/3 doesnt have fast AF. BLASPHEMY! The AF is amazing for single shots. Crazy fast, giving DSLRs a run for their money, if you use the right lens.

    I think the ergonomics is brilliant for its size. Yes, it is smaller than it looks in the commercials. I found the ergonomics right out of the box great, kudos to Olympus for the thumb-grip. Found no issues holding it right out of the box. Of course, people with huge hands might have a problem, and opt to use the Battery grip.

    Image Stabilisation is amazing. I take shots with 1/2 second exposure and it comes out looking like I have taken it at 1/500th of a second (handheld). This cannot be done with my DSLR and my X100 handheld.

    Lens. Amazing lens for the platform currently. PanaLeica 25mm f/1.4 (my current fav), Olympus 12mm f/2.0 (EXPENSIVE! But great nonetheless), Panasonice 14mm f/2.5 (Awesome lens for its size), Olympus 45mm f/1.8 are my current top lens for the platform. As you can see, focal length is more or less covered with a great usable lens. Macro lens are on the way it seems as well. And the great thing about Micro 4/3 is the flexibility when it comes to adapting lenses to the system. Currently using a Leica 50mm Summicron-M on my OM-D as well. and mmmm...... delicious. though, it will be a 100mm lens equiv. Making it a Leica Telephoto lens

    Image Quality-wise, really no issues here. The sensor for the OM-D seems to be waaaay better than the EP-3, and paired with the lens I mentioned, it absolutely shone!!!
    Full review: The Olympus OM-D E-M5 – Ming Thein | Photographer - This review explains IQ much better than me.

    DSLR-wise, I suppose it will be the platform with the most flexibility out-of-the-box. My recommendations would be a Canon 550d 2nd hand preferably. And you have a plethora of lenses to choose from. You get great battery life, and you have all the settings in the world to learn from. It is robust and is like a tank. Only problem for me with DSLRs, are

    1) The Shutter noise really kills it sometimes when I am trying to take people on the streets, as compared to the OM-D and espiecially, the X100.
    2) The fact that people on the streets fear DSLRs over every other camera on the planet. Might be a problem for Street Photographers, this is when flippy screens come in handy to shoots from the hip like a pervert (Canon 600d / OM-D)
    3) WEIGHT. My OM-D and the Pana Leica 25mm, the Pana 14mm, the Olympus 45mm weighs about a third as a D700 Body ONLY. The 550d might be quite a bit lighter, but with one lens (average prime lens perhaps) the weight changes quite a bit.

    So... If you are like me, a person who wants IQ that matches DSLRs with affordable lenses and want to carry little weight as possible with the flexibility of changing out quality lenses with fast AF, OM-D is the pick for me, albeit an expensive pick. (Go 2nd hand!)

    OR

    If you are a person like me (LOL! It's true!), who wants IQ that really shines in many situations, with brilliant, professional lenses, and great performance in any light possible, and have tons of lenses to choose from (albeit expensive), AND don't mind reliving the days as a primary school student carrying his crazily-heavy schoolbag, (if you wanna bring along numerous lenses), My pick would be the DSLR. And which DSLR for a beginner? 550d OR D3100, if you are one of those people who want to have the newest things? 600d OR D3200

  2. #162
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rc311 View Post
    Battery life... means would need to get extra battery for the OMD.

    A stupid qns, are we able to manually select a foucs point via the EVF? should be able to, right? lolx...
    Yes. You can.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
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  3. #163
    Member fmeeran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonax View Post
    So typical of ppl who only knows about canikon when it comes to dslr

    bucks for bucks,

    A55 was better than 550D n D3100

    A57/65 is better than 600D n D3200

    Not forgetting K-5 also
    a57/65 should really be compared to the D5100 if you want to compare at equivalent price points. the sony still has it's pros, but don't compare it to something in a lower price bracket.
    Dxxxx | 35/1.8 | 50/1.8 | Tokina 28-70 | Panny G1 | 14-45 | 25/1.7
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  4. #164

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloppyjoe123 View Post
    ^Yep.

    Just to provide my input on a D700/FUJI X100/OM-D user.

    For the OM-D, yes, the battery life isn't as good as the DSLR, cos of the size of the battery and the EVF as such. Take note, what I am saying is for the OM-D only (not any other Olympus/Panasonic cameras).

    The OM-D is light (HUGE FACTOR), but not too light to make you feel as if it isn't robust enough (like the X-Pro 1). Which makes it great for an everyday camera, and travelling.

    Whoever said that Micro4/3 doesnt have fast AF. BLASPHEMY! The AF is amazing for single shots. Crazy fast, giving DSLRs a run for their money, if you use the right lens.

    I think the ergonomics is brilliant for its size. Yes, it is smaller than it looks in the commercials. I found the ergonomics right out of the box great, kudos to Olympus for the thumb-grip. Found no issues holding it right out of the box. Of course, people with huge hands might have a problem, and opt to use the Battery grip.

    Image Stabilisation is amazing. I take shots with 1/2 second exposure and it comes out looking like I have taken it at 1/500th of a second (handheld). This cannot be done with my DSLR and my X100 handheld.

    Lens. Amazing lens for the platform currently. PanaLeica 25mm f/1.4 (my current fav), Olympus 12mm f/2.0 (EXPENSIVE! But great nonetheless), Panasonice 14mm f/2.5 (Awesome lens for its size), Olympus 45mm f/1.8 are my current top lens for the platform. As you can see, focal length is more or less covered with a great usable lens. Macro lens are on the way it seems as well. And the great thing about Micro 4/3 is the flexibility when it comes to adapting lenses to the system. Currently using a Leica 50mm Summicron-M on my OM-D as well. and mmmm...... delicious. though, it will be a 100mm lens equiv. Making it a Leica Telephoto lens

    Image Quality-wise, really no issues here. The sensor for the OM-D seems to be waaaay better than the EP-3, and paired with the lens I mentioned, it absolutely shone!!!
    Full review: The Olympus OM-D E-M5 €“ Ming Thein | Photographer - This review explains IQ much better than me.

    DSLR-wise, I suppose it will be the platform with the most flexibility out-of-the-box. My recommendations would be a Canon 550d 2nd hand preferably. And you have a plethora of lenses to choose from. You get great battery life, and you have all the settings in the world to learn from. It is robust and is like a tank. Only problem for me with DSLRs, are

    1) The Shutter noise really kills it sometimes when I am trying to take people on the streets, as compared to the OM-D and espiecially, the X100.
    2) The fact that people on the streets fear DSLRs over every other camera on the planet. Might be a problem for Street Photographers, this is when flippy screens come in handy to shoots from the hip like a pervert (Canon 600d / OM-D)
    3) WEIGHT. My OM-D and the Pana Leica 25mm, the Pana 14mm, the Olympus 45mm weighs about a third as a D700 Body ONLY. The 550d might be quite a bit lighter, but with one lens (average prime lens perhaps) the weight changes quite a bit.

    So... If you are like me, a person who wants IQ that matches DSLRs with affordable lenses and want to carry little weight as possible with the flexibility of changing out quality lenses with fast AF, OM-D is the pick for me, albeit an expensive pick. (Go 2nd hand!)

    OR

    If you are a person like me (LOL! It's true!), who wants IQ that really shines in many situations, with brilliant, professional lenses, and great performance in any light possible, and have tons of lenses to choose from (albeit expensive), AND don't mind reliving the days as a primary school student carrying his crazily-heavy schoolbag, (if you wanna bring along numerous lenses), My pick would be the DSLR. And which DSLR for a beginner? 550d OR D3100, if you are one of those people who want to have the newest things? 600d OR D3200

    Good advise.

    And thanks for the link to the review

    I am poisoned by the bbb virus

  5. #165

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonax View Post
    So typical of ppl who only knows about canikon when it comes to dslr

    bucks for bucks,

    A55 was better than 550D n D3100

    A57/65 is better than 600D n D3200

    Not forgetting K-5 also
    Quote Originally Posted by fmeeran View Post
    a57/65 should really be compared to the D5100 if you want to compare at equivalent price points. the sony still has it's pros, but don't compare it to something in a lower price bracket.
    Sonax has a point though. if you look at it and study it, Sony's Interchangeable Lens Cameras always had better cameras for a lower price than its direct product competition from CaNikon.

  6. #166
    Member fmeeran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309

    Sonax has a point though. if you look at it and study it, Sony's Interchangeable Lens Cameras always had better cameras for a lower price than its direct product competition from CaNikon.
    Agreed. Both sony and Pentax are cheaper for comparable products but I get the feeling the lenses are more expensive. Is that true?
    I got into nikon after seeing only canon and nikon, after which I haven't yet had any serious reason to switch. So don't do what I did. :-)
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  7. #167
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by fmeeran View Post
    Agreed. Both sony and Pentax are cheaper for comparable products but I get the feeling the lenses are more expensive. Is that true?
    True.

    It works out to about the same in the end.... In the end, they will find a way to get you.

    More important thing is to think about what you want out of photography, and look at the system as a whole to see if it fits your needs. I looked at Sony before actually.. but cringed when I saw the price tags on them CZ lenses.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 20th June 2012 at 06:55 AM.

  8. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmeeran

    Agreed. Both sony and Pentax are cheaper for comparable products but I get the feeling the lenses are more expensive. Is that true?
    I got into nikon after seeing only canon and nikon, after which I haven't yet had any serious reason to switch. So don't do what I did. :-)
    No, the lenses are the same or cheaper. And you get built-in image stabilization too.

    The limited edition Pentax lenses cost a bomb, as do the autofocus Carl Zeiss lenses on Sony. But they are soooo worth it.
    Alpha

  9. #169
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Suddenly I have this feeling that this thread is going to go down the road of a brand war... with people saying one brand is better and cheaper than others... and stuff like that.

    Not going to go into this arguement... or be branded as fanbois and stuff like that.

    What I wanted to point out is, there is no better cameras than the other, they each have their good point and their limitation. Like the SLT, there are some light lost that some find unacceptable, others think they can live with it. Pentax is great, but for the K-01, there are negative reviews on it too... so it is not that nice and rosy too. Canon and Nikon also had their limitation, some love these brands to bits, other find that they are a waste of money.

    Oly, Pana each had their own followers and there are good reasons too. Samsung is also a good camera and I would definitely reject and disagree with anyone who claim that Samsung's sensor are inferior...

    So it is up to TS and another out there on what he/she find is good enough for he and her.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
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  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmeeran

    Agreed. Both sony and Pentax are cheaper for comparable products but I get the feeling the lenses are more expensive. Is that true?
    I got into nikon after seeing only canon and nikon, after which I haven't yet had any serious reason to switch. So don't do what I did. :-)
    To me, it's not true that Sony lens are more ex than others, unless u want CZ lenses. But be honest with yourself. Will you get CZ or L or whatever premium lens if u r just a hobbyist and the salary u are getting?

    If u know what kind of photographer u will be and your own financial status, then u will know whether Sony or whatever brand is worth to get it or not.

    Other than CZ lens that may cost more than others, the normal Sony lens costs the SAME or even CHEAPER than the rest. As hobbyist, te normal Sony lens are enough already and don't forget u still got minolta lens and other 3rd party lens to include.

    Mind u, the common 3rd party lens are cheaper for Sony than other brands.

    How many lens u wan to keep? Arsenal of them? Not practical, right??

  11. #171
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    To me, it's not true that Sony lens are more ex than others, unless u want CZ lenses. But be honest with yourself. Will you get CZ or L or whatever premium lens if u r just a hobbyist and the salary u are getting?

    If u know what kind of photographer u will be and your own financial status, then u will know whether Sony or whatever brand is worth to get it or not.

    Other than CZ lens that may cost more than others, the normal Sony lens costs the SAME or even CHEAPER than the rest. As hobbyist, te normal Sony lens are enough already and don't forget u still got minolta lens and other 3rd party lens to include.

    Mind u, the common 3rd party lens are cheaper for Sony than other brands.

    How many lens u wan to keep? Arsenal of them? Not practical, right??
    Er... I am a hobbyist, and I would get a premium lens whenever I can. One of the reason why some of the third party lens are cheaper for Sony (and Pentax) was that they don't have image stabilization because Sony and Pentax both had in built image stabilizing system (which is a good thing too).

    Lenses price are the same, comparing non-premium lenses only, you get the same price. Note that why some non-premium lenses of Canon and Nikon being more expensive as the Sony and Pentax are the fact that some of these lenses had image stabilizing system too. And comparing premium lenses, some of the Sony and Pentax ones are more expensive, but do they get better result, that question would not be answer, it depends on the photographers behind those machines.

    So... no matter what camera you are using (be it Sony, Pentax, Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Ricoh, and whatsnot), it simply doesn't matter... and there is no such thing as cheaper camera and lenses, they work out to be the same.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
    My lousy shots

  12. #172

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    So... no matter what camera you are using (be it Sony, Pentax, Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Ricoh, and whatsnot), it simply doesn't matter... and there is no such thing as cheaper camera and lenses, they work out to be the same.
    True. The best kit would probably mean the best value or the best deal you can get. My kit was actually a workshop model. I got it off Samsung with warranty for a nice discount. I would not have bought otherwise. LoL!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonax View Post
    To some people, going out there to get a canon is the most 'pro' thing to do, thanks to the marketing campaign n reputation of canon.
    'Herd Mentality''...
    The "Herd Mentality" is the "safe" mentality because it works. It is also the most boring mentality. But the main thing is that your colleague is probably happy. Happiness trumps logic in this case!
    Last edited by Shahmatt; 20th June 2012 at 02:25 PM.
    Samsung NX10+30mm, Fuji S6500FD

  13. #173

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    The "Herd Mentality" is the "safe" mentality because it works. It is also the most boring mentality. But the main thing is that your colleague is probably happy. Happiness trumps logic in this case!
    Ignorance is bliss....
    Alpha

  14. #174

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhino123 View Post
    Oly, Pana each had their own followers and there are good reasons too. Samsung is also a good camera and I would definitely reject and disagree with anyone who claim that Samsung's sensor are inferior...
    They have good glass, but definitely an outdated sensor that's re-used each time in a newer camera.

    schneider-kreuznach makes great lenses...

    and apparently they're considering making some for the NEX as well.

  15. #175

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by kei1309 View Post
    They have good glass, but definitely an outdated sensor that's re-used each time in a newer camera.
    The NX200 and NX20 use newer sensors which perform better.

    I agree that the 2010 and 2011 models used slightly noisier sensors, but only pixel peepers notice such things.
    If you really care then you would shoot RAW and post process, and you can then get excellent quality images.

    As you know I use the NX10. I am not a professional, but I have made back all the money spent on this camera through group competitions. Here is an ISO1600, F/2.8 shot that won me 300 pounds. It's not noise free and purists will point to all the shadow noise. But these were dim conditions and I underexposed on the original shot.



    Having said all this I do think better deals are possible for the money now. I am not the biggest fan of the NX20. But dismissing Samsung based on sensor is not a reason to look past the NX series. At the very least the lenses are superb!
    Samsung NX10+30mm, Fuji S6500FD

  16. #176
    Moderator daredevil123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmatt View Post
    The NX200 and NX20 use newer sensors which perform better.

    I agree that the 2010 and 2011 models used slightly noisier sensors, but only pixel peepers notice such things.
    If you really care then you would shoot RAW and post process, and you can then get excellent quality images.

    As you know I use the NX10. I am not a professional, but I have made back all the money spent on this camera through group competitions. Here is an ISO1600, F/2.8 shot that won me 300 pounds. It's not noise free and purists will point to all the shadow noise. But these were dim conditions and I underexposed on the original shot.



    Having said all this I do think better deals are possible for the money now. I am not the biggest fan of the NX20. But dismissing Samsung based on sensor is not a reason to look past the NX series. At the very least the lenses are superb!
    Everyone has their reasons and parameters for their gear selection.

    Nice 1600 ISO pic. 300 pounds... wow... great job and I believe the photographer is good. But... I never looked Samsung way because I shoot quite a bit at ISO 5000 nowadays and for extended periods. I doubt Samsung can do that convincingly well with that much battery power.

    And like you said, value is all relative. You have made back on your Samsung, so so have I, made back on my equipment... To me, it is inconceivable now that I use the NX system. Simply because it cannot meet my needs.
    Last edited by daredevil123; 20th June 2012 at 05:18 PM.

  17. #177
    Moderator rhino123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Yep... so like what others had said... bro Shahmatt had make good with his Samsung, while Daredevil123 had made good with his camera (whatever that is), Rashkae and Kei had do good with their camera too (I believe that was Sony).

    To say the true, I have done good with my Canon and Oly too, so there you have it. Everyone choose the gears that suits them best in whatever environment or genre they are into. So it is really not accurate to say which camera is better than which and which is cheaper and had more value. To some, a S$300 camera is good enough and had great value, to others, a S$10000 camera is still good value for the money.

    It is up to you... TS.
    I am not a photographer, just someone who happened to have a couple of cameras.
    My lousy shots

  18. #178

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    I want to say something that will be a fair statement.

    I attended a large conference and there was a hired photographer uncle. He looks pro from the way I observe him. What surprise me is he has 3 different cams. One canon DSLR with lens, one Nikon DSLR with lens, and one Sony NEX.

    He will switch between the 3 cameras, depending on the situations. And he did it with ease. And I'm not surprised If he has more other brands at home.

    If someone were to ask him what brand is good, he will probably say any brand is good as long as u know how to use it.

    Now this is a guy who shows a good example of someone who can master any brand and be good at what he's doing.

    I learned that there is no one perfect brand for every situation. It's best that we learn how to use different brand and different system and be proficient with them.

  19. #179

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    I want to say something that will be a fair statement.

    I attended a large conference and there was a hired photographer uncle. He looks pro from the way I observe him. What surprise me is he has 3 different cams. One canon DSLR with lens, one Nikon DSLR with lens, and one Sony NEX.

    He will switch between the 3 cameras, depending on the situations. And he did it with ease. And I'm not surprised If he has more other brands at home.

    If someone were to ask him what brand is good, he will probably say any brand is good as long as u know how to use it.

    Now this is a guy who shows a good example of someone who can master any brand and be good at what he's doing.

    I learned that there is no one perfect brand for every situation. It's best that we learn how to use different brand and different system and be proficient with them.
    yes that's very true.

    perhaps that guy is one of the members here called Eow

  20. #180

    Default Re: Mirrorless or entry level DSLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by donut88 View Post
    I want to say something that will be a fair statement.



    If someone were to ask him what brand is good, he will probably say any brand is good as long as u know how to use it.

    Now this is a guy who shows a good example of someone who can master any brand and be good at what he's doing.

    I learned that there is no one perfect brand for every situation. It's best that we learn how to use different brand and different system and be proficient with them.


    Agree w that statement. I think it also boil down to the comfort level for the user. Despite I had used Canon products for so many yrs, e OMD really amazed me in its own way too. ( I wasn't very supportive to Oly in e past too n having pple telling oly s***, canon/nikon dslr r way much better etc)


    Just came back from Vietnam, the fast AF n tracking allow me to take street shots real fast (usually my shots will usually gt block by passerby) I did not bring the flash out w me as I want to conserve the batt life (onli have 1 with me currently) the low light performance is really gd enough to shoot in dim light condition.


    The light weight is another + point, I did not get too tired even carry it for e whole day! It look tiny compared to other dslr, does not attract as much attention as compare to Canon d1 [saw an angmoh photographer carrying it if I didn c e no. wrongly ] n some other entry level Canon dslr I saw along the trip.

    I think the branding of Canon and Nikon are so strong that most people will think they r the professional brand, carrying 1 of their dslr will make u a pro [whether u r or nt] . an elder was telling me the angmoh photographer Look so professional w e camera but dunno really pro or nt and mine was like so small lol. And I responded imagine I carrying his 1d w telephoto len, he laughed saying tt his n my size r diff.

    what more, i helped a tourist took her photo w her compact camera ( e IQ look gd too), and she was happily askin pple to help her taking pics w her cam .

    i personally feel that at e end of the day, the satisfaction as the owner of the camera is more impt than the branding. Sometime i will feel tat getting a EVIL cam it is not tt worth but when I looked at the photographs, the satisfaction level is there.

    P.S: using m.zuiko 12-50mm e depth of field is not tt satisfaction for me, tried oly 17mm f/2.8 but v expensive >_< , any idea/recommendation of len tt can produce a greater depth of field as compared to 12-50mm?

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